The criticisms of incel-ideology and redpill-ideology also apply to feminist ideology

[Osaid]

12 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I've tried to point to this in similar topics before - I think there is a LOT of misandry cloaked in the virtue of feminism in the 4th wave movement. It's not true feminism.

Yep. Basically always conflated with sexism/misandry. Too many bad actors unfortunately.

[Lila9]

4 hours ago, LordFall said:

What is the patriarchy to you?

A pyramid-like and hierarchical structure (pyramid scheme), the rule of the father, more power and privilege to men, to the rich, to the white (both ethnically and culturally), and it includes rigid gender roles, colonialism and imperialism, violence and erasure of cultures, repression of the feminine and the exploitation of it, nature, and within ourselves.

Repression of life, creativity, authenticity, expression, intuition, compassion, ancient wisdom, and embodiment.

Hyper-individuality and forgetfulness of the interconnectedness of everything and shared responsibility. Toxic work culture, where doing is seen as more important than being, where masculinity is seen as superior to femininity rather than supportive/complementary. It affects all aspects of our lives and institutions, science, sexuality, spirituality, education, health, and philosophy, and harms everyone, though on different levels.

If feminine energy is life and soul, then masculine energy is the structure that holds it, the ego, the consciousness. Naturally, the masculine should support life and hold it; however, patriarchal society is an unnatural structure in which life is suppressed in favor of the structure itself. The structure, the ego, the mind, is seen as the most important thing, which creates a cult of death that values possessions over life, objectification of living beings, and a materialistic approach at the expense of spirituality. Even spirituality in such a culture is hijacked by a materialistic approach (i.e., the manifestation trend that may be the most popular thing in mainstream spirituality, which is about summoning material things and consumerist wishes)

4 hours ago, LordFall said:

It sounds to me like you're lumping all of feminism together when it's separated by waves. 1st-3rd wave feminism seems way more legitimate to me than 4th wave feminism that we have today which is mostly femcels/anti-establishment socialists. 

Regarding the 4th wave, I covered it here together with the other waves because they are interconnected. In order to understand the 4th wave, you need to understand the other waves and the backlash they received.

The movement evolves in a spiral rather than a linear way. You can see some repeated themes in the different waves, depending on the backlash.

Don't trust only what I wrote, and do your own research. I wrote it in my own words, and I am not an English native speaker so I definitely missed something. This is why it is better to read the literature, because it is explained in much more detail. You can do a Google search for books on each wave.

 

Spoiler

The First Wave

The goal: Legal equality, the right to vote, property rights, access to education.

The backlash received from patriarchy: Claims that women are too emotional or irrational for politics (funny when it comes from men), mockery in the media, and portraying feminists as anti-family or unnatural.

The Second Wave

The goal: Workplace rights, reproductive rights, protection from domestic abuse, and opposition to pornography (arguing that it sexualizes inequality, normalizes violence, and trains men to see women as objects).

The backlash received from patriarchy: Rigid beauty standards, which were promoted and monitzied by capitalism; the porn industry further develops, which alienates women from their bodies and objectifies them for the male gaze, for mere comsumption, women internalizing this and not feeling connected enough to their bodies, constant stress, eating disorders, and mental health issues among women.

The Third Wave

The goal: Body positivity and sex positivity (emphasizing women’s agency and sexual autonomy), rejection of narrow beauty standards, rejection of the male gaze, and recognition of how race, class, and sexuality affect women differently (i.e., women of color are more oppressed than white women, LGBTQ women are more oppressed than hetrosexual women).

The backlash from patriarchy: Claims that feminism is no longer needed because women already have legal rights. Claims that feminism has gone too far.

Sexualization and commodification of feminist messages by capitalism in order to sell products, culture wars, and red pill/manosphere backlash.

The Fourth Wave

The goal: Bringing awareness to how widespread sexual harassment is in workplaces and powerful industries, shifting the shame to the attacker rather than the victim, accountability for abusers, believing and supporting survivors,

 body autonomy, reproductive rights, equal healthcare access/treatment, critique of porn expectations and unrealistic beauty ideals, critique of the “motherhood penalty” and “fatherhood bonus”, unpaid care labor, concerns about femicide and gender-based violence, which are seen as systemic issues.

Backlash from patriarchy: The manosphere (Andrew tate alike alpha bros), claims of “cancel culture” and “feminism gone too far”, political pushback against women’s reproductive rights, increased online harassment and misogyny targeting women, framing feminism as anti-male, promoting rigid gender roles, dismissing structural inequality.

Why is there always backlash to feminism? Note that feminism has valid goals. None of them involve killing, raping, controlling men, or harming men for no reason. The most “horrible” thing is holding men accountable for their bad treatment of women. 

It is more about freedoms that men receive without question and take for granted, while women do not. When women request the same form of freedom, fair treatment, and respect, they receive massive backlash. Why?

This is because the system, which is patriarchal, wants to preserve itself. The men (and some women) in this system work to preserve the system, because of various reasons: socialization, survival, conformism, fear of change, privilege, lack of critical thinking, ignorance, etc.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Lila9

[Lila9]

3 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

I'm not equating the ideologies, I'm asking you why the same criticisms don't apply. 

 

3 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

I don't want to read a whole bunch of literature bashing on men and talking about how men get off on oppressing women, thanks. 

Criticism is valid, however, there is criticism from above and criticism from below. If you haven't read feminist literature, and don't wish to, then your criticism likely stems from bias and misunderstanding, from below, and therefore cannot be taken seriously.

[LordFall]

@Lila9 Yeah that's fair. My only caveat would be to say that the patriarchy is not an unnatural system. It's just the extension of the dominance hierarchy of the animal kingdom. Kill or be killed or be enslaved basically. 

I do think it's time that we rise above it and finally bring our species globally towards stage green values. It's funny because I'm quite sure AI will have a lot to do with it. Women's rights increase dramatically the more stability the state has and the more effective law enforcement is. 

I think perhaps now we have gone full circle to @mr_engineer's point not in terms of both being hateful ideology but fundamentally both being about being able to thrive and be fulfilled and how hard that is in our current society no matter your gender. 

Interestingly Stage Yellow is the first stage that really combines both feminine and masculine polarity. Also I think a lot of inceldom has to do with fundamental immaturity and a lack of integration of stage blue and stage orange. A well integrated stage orange individual should have no issue dating as they have figured out how to be interact effectively with the markets that they are in. 

[mr_engineer]

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

 

Criticism is valid, however, there is criticism from above and criticism from below. If you haven't read feminist literature, and don't wish to, then your criticism likely stems from bias and misunderstanding, from below, and therefore cannot be taken seriously.

Asking a man to read feminist literature is like asking a Jew to read Mein Kampf. 

I don't really care about 'above or below'. I care about the manifestation of feminism in present-day, and I'm really not liking what I see. The rhetoric is incredibly hateful and anti-male. There is a characterization of men as 'oppressors' only, there is zero appreciation of men in history or in present-day. If you're going to say anything positive about masculinity and 'what it is capable of', you're the exception as a feminist. Normal, present-day feminists see masculinity as fundamentally oppressive, and that's it. It is just gender-tribalism, like the incel and redpill-ideologies.