Starving Patriarchy

[Lila9]

6 hours ago, zazen said:

True - the brutal thing is physical reality has asymmetries and inequalities. Men and women have largely been trying to survive reality with trade offs that have changed as advancements / developments came about.

Physical reality does have asymmetries and inequalities. The question is, are they natural or artificial? Example of a natural one: women give birth, men can't, but they have more muscle.
Example of a non-natural one: women are systematically deprived of the same rights men have, such as voting, divorcing, owning property, freedom, and power.
Can you differentiate between the natural and the artificial ones?

6 hours ago, zazen said:

Divorce laws for example remedy the fact of unearned income / wealth being built during motherhood for example.

Why are there divorce laws to begin with? Because of feminists advocacy. Not because the patriarchal system one day decided to be kind. 

6 hours ago, zazen said:

It's also not like men working in hard jobs which are much more risky then desk jobs are self actualizing or enlightenment maxxing while sweat runs down their ass crack. That's another asymmetry - physically hard / dangerous jobs are done by more men than women - but men don't claim that this is due to matriarchal malice - its simply that physical reality matches men better to certain jobs.

Men work in more physical jobs because of their muscle power; this is an example of natural asymmetry. Take into account that men are also paid better for their risky jobs. Even if not, this is not because of women, but because of other men who exploit the muscle power of their fellow men for profit.

Women take risks to their bodies, lives, and safety by marrying men, living with men, and having children. Women are more likely to get hurt by men who are close to them and living with them in the same house. This is a real issue that feminists address.

6 hours ago, zazen said:

Once you frame any act by man as misogyny even if its done with neutral or positive intent simply because its a man doing it or the ''system'' is patriarchal then you've surrendered yourself to ideological framing that is toxic and can only result in making you bitter against half the population you share the planet with and with who the opposite sex is trying to survive with.

No, I don't frame every act by a man as misogyny. Just because I address the systemic oppression of women does not mean that it is an attack on individual men. The truth is that rape and femicide exist, due to systematic misogeny, no matter how you frame it.

Many of you want to justify this as some natural reality that we have nothing to do with, like "boys will be boys," but this is not the case. A big part of it, and perhaps even most of it, is due to a systemic issue, and if you are not sincere and do not address it, you are part of the problem. You are protecting a dysfunctional and toxic society.

In a less hierarchical and patriarchal society, one that is more egalitarian and in which women hold equal power, there is significantly less to non, rape, femicide, and other forms of misogyny-based harm against women.

6 hours ago, zazen said:

Even good acts are deemed ''benevolent misogny'' lol common. What is Leo's work on this forum and his courses/videos..benevolent misogny?

No, I was talking about the relationship between men and women, not about everything that men do simply because they exist.

Do you know what benevolent misogyny is? It is the belief that women are inherently weak and irrational and need men's guidance and protection, expressed through doing tasks for them because they are supposedly too weak or incapable themselves, which justifies dominance and control. It can also involve putting women on a pedestal, idealizing and praising them if they conform to patriarchal expectations, but demonizing them as soon as they do not, the love-hate cycle, the Madonna-whore complex. Those behaviors may look positive on the surface, but they derive from the same misogynistic root.

Not every single man exhibit those behaviours of misogeny or benelovent misogeny. But they are very common ways in which men treat and relate to women. 

BTW, I know that it is very nice to talk to me, but I already covered this in my other convo with you. Please spare me the repetitive arguments.

On 5/25/2026 at 6:22 AM, Lila9 said:

I already covered it here:

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:59 PM by Lila9

[Lila9]

16 hours ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

The guys in this Forum are lost. I dont know if is the style of Leo Gura teaching that leads guys to become such assholes or they are just already and gravitate to the Forum because it supply them the sort of environment to display this way of being. Raze, is lost case for me same with others. Dont care about anything they say, they are just gasligthing AF,no reflection at all about the things brougth up. 

Yes, they are full of shit to be honest. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

How disappointing. 

[Apparition of Jack]

Don’t you guys like the opposite sex? lol.
 

I was speaking about this with my therapist recently and it kinda occurred to me so much of modern gender discourse seems to just boil down to someone feeling emotionally detached from the other gender. As if love, dating, relationships etc are just transactions one person gets from another and there’s no real way to fundamentally humanise or care about the other person.

Aw man. Now I just made myself depressed. It’s not that bad guys lol we can get along 😢

[Basman]

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Don’t you guys like the opposite sex? lol.
 

I was speaking about this with my therapist recently and it kinda occurred to me so much of modern gender discourse seems to just boil down to someone feeling emotionally detached from the other gender. As if love, dating, relationships etc are just transactions one person gets from another and there’s no real way to fundamentally humanise or care about the other person.

Aw man. Now I just made myself depressed. It’s not that bad guys lol we can get along 😢

I think it's mostly algorithmic. It's easy slop for the piggies. No one really thinks about this kind of shit outside of the internet. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

2 hours ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Don’t you guys like the opposite sex? lol.
 

I have a partner, I love woman  thats why I share this stuff and thats why I am becoming aware of it, because there are several unconscious ways that one may relate with woman that if not adderesed will derail the relationship. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

Guys here talking ill about Feminism. Check this

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DYT7vwIzuEe/?igsh=MXBtdmJnZ2RhcXVkYQ==

This guy even follow Actualized.org Instagram. Hope maybe one day he comes to the Forum, see this thread and add something to it. 

 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

Guys here talking ill about Feminism. Check this

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DYT7vwIzuEe/?igsh=MXBtdmJnZ2RhcXVkYQ==

This guy even follow Actualized.org Instagram. Hope maybe one day he comes to the Forum, see this thread and add something to it. 

 

He’s projecting his high minded ideas into feminism as a whole and ignoring the practical realities of it. It’s no different than if I said the redpill manosphere is just “men realizing their divine masculine energy to better help society, anyone who doesn’t like it is attacking it because it exposes them to the truth”. 

Edited yesterday at 01:56 AM by Raze

[Wilhelm44]

@Lila9The fact is that a movement mostly still rooted in anger/revenge (or at the very least coming from a place of misdiagnosis of the problem) will probably not have the best of results.

The problem has ultimately always been one of consciousness levels, not of gender or even societal structure.

If you think it's about gender, then you stuck in an eternal us vs them battle, ie surface level distractions.

 

Edited yesterday at 08:18 AM by Wilhelm44

[Wilhelm44]

On 26/05/2026 at 0:42 AM, Rafael Thundercat said:

The guys in this Forum are lost. I dont know if is the style of Leo Gura teaching that leads guys to become such assholes or they are just already and gravitate to the Forum because it supply them the sort of environment to display this way of being. Raze, is lost case for me same with others. Dont care about anything they say, they are just gasligthing AF,no reflection at all about the things brougth up. 

The more you steer towards generalizations about men, the less likely you are to be taken seriously. 

If someone triggers you with a silly comment, dont respond, dont get sucked in. Responding to every trigger is not exactly starving the patriarchy. 

Spend more time engaging with those who are making some valid points, and there have been plenty here.

Edited yesterday at 09:52 AM by Wilhelm44

[Natasha Tori Maru]

There's a demand those who advocate for whatever this "feminism" is that they be taken in good faith - but this sane courtesy is not extended to those they disagree with. Or men, for that matter.

Edited yesterday at 09:24 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Lila9]

7 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

@Lila9The fact is that a movement mostly still rooted in anger/revenge (or at the very least coming from a place of misdiagnosis of the problem) will probably not have the best of results.

The problem has ultimately always been one of consciousness levels, not of gender or even societal structure.

If you think it's about gender, then you stuck in an eternal us vs them battle, ie surface level distractions.

 

Yes, this is not all men, but enough harmful men to cause damage. It's like Russian roulette: you have a basket of 10 apples, and one of them is poisoned. Would you be eager to take an apple out of the basket, or would you be cautious and suspicious?

 

We women are told many contradictory messages. When we are picky and suspicious about men, we are criticized for not being more open, "feminine", and easygoing, but when we are too easygoing and open and end up with harmful men, we are criticized for not choosing better.

 

Are feminists angry about the systematic oppression and the harm caused by patriarchy to women (and men)? Of course. The same way a person who has experienced racism and has been oppressed based on class their entire life would respond. This is a natural human reaction.

 

Is it rooted in revenge? Not at all.

 

Should it have been rooted in revenge, women would have killed and raped any man in their sight and done to men exactly what they did to women. Sixty million women would visit a website where they learn how to rape their unconscious and drugged husbands!

People look at being a feminist as some moral failure, but they don't look at rapists and pedophiles the same way. People, men and women, literally preferred a pedophile and a rapist to be the president of the US only so it would not be a woman!

This is part of the problem. The main reason people are so negative about feminism is the exact reason feminists are furious: systemic hatred of women and femininity.

If you think that feminism is about blindly hating men, then you are just strawmanning it. There are women who uphold the patriarchy too, which is acknowledged by the movement, and there is active discussion about it.

Patriarchy is more than a gender problem, it is also a class problem and a race problem and environment problem and it affects all aspects of our lives: money, sex, culture, art, spirituality, and science. This is deeper than that. Look at patriarchy as an unconscious matrix that most people are not aware of and unconsciously participate in. They are literally socialized to do so and have no reference for another reality, and they unconsciously defend it, regardless of its dysfunctionality, just because it is familiar and feels like home. But this is an illusion.

Starving patriarchy means letting this low-consciousness and dysfunctional framework die. This really needs to die because it hurts all of us. This is serious and not funny.

And we should not be silent or afraid, but bring the shadows and the dysfunctionalities to the surface, look them in the eyes, and strive for a better reality for all.

Feminists actually put a huge mirror in front of society, which society rejects, even liberals reject it, because this a threat, because truth can be too intimidating and unfamiliar, and people cling to the familiarity and comfort of their culture, which is strongly tied to their identity and survival.

Talking about these issues is not an attack on someone, but rather an invitation to look deeper and to think and reflect. Those who feel triggered when the truth comes to the surface and is put in front of their face need to contemplate why. Why do they feel so defensive? Is it because they participate in it and uphold it? 

This is very difficult to engage with people who have never read any feminist literature, who have never seriously contemplated this issue, or who have never been directly affected by it. It is heartbreaking that in what we call a spiritual forum, in which you would usually expect more open-minded and truth-seeking people, you encounter the same closed-minded mindset you would encounter from a "normie." Instead of people engaging with openness and curiosity, they are acting defensive and toxic, distorting and strawmanning what we say. And we have nothing to do with it. Like, really. I can talk about it here, but this all falls on deaf ears. This is actually a good example of conformity and how difficult it is to engage with a herd of like-minded people and how difficult it is to challenge the status quo.

Edited 23 hours ago by Lila9

[Natasha Tori Maru]

https://retractionwatch.com/2015/07/21/to-our-horror-widely-reported-study-suggesting-divorce-is-more-likely-when-wives-fall-ill-gets-axed/?ref=benjaminkeep.com

Basically the often cited 'men leave women when they get sick 20% of the time' was an error.

After correction, marriage was 6% more likely to end if the wife had the illness, no change for the husband.

[Wilhelm44]

15 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Yes, this is not all men, but enough harmful men to cause damage. It's like Russian roulette: you have a basket of 10 apples, and one of them is poisoned. Would you be eager to take an apple out of the basket, or would you be cautious and suspicious?

 

We women are told many contradictory messages. When we are picky and suspicious about men, we are criticized for not being more open, "feminine", and easygoing, but when we are too easygoing and open and end up with harmful men, we are criticized for not choosing better.

 

Are feminists angry about the systematic oppression and the harm caused by patriarchy to women (and men)? Of course. The same way a person who has experienced racism and has been oppressed based on class their entire life would respond. This is a natural human reaction.

 

Is it rooted in revenge? Not at all.

 

Should it have been rooted in revenge, women would have killed and raped any man in their sight and done to men exactly what they did to women. Sixty million women would visit a website where they learn how to rape their unconscious and drugged husbands!

People look at being a feminist as some moral failure, but they don't look at rapists and pedophiles the same way. People, men and women, literally preferred a pedophile and a rapist to be the president of the US only so it would not be a woman!

This is part of the problem. The main reason people are so negative about feminism is the exact reason feminists are furious: systemic hatred of women and femininity.

If you think that feminism is about blindly hating men, then you are just strawmanning it. There are women who uphold the patriarchy too, which is acknowledged by the movement, and there is active discussion about it.

Patriarchy is more than a gender problem, it is also a class problem and a race problem and environment problem and it affects all aspects of our lives: money, sex, culture, art, spirituality, and science. This is deeper than that. Look at patriarchy as an unconscious matrix that most people are not aware of and unconsciously participate in. They are literally socialized to do so and have no reference for another reality, and they unconsciously defend it, regardless of its dysfunctionality, just because it is familiar and feels like home. But this is an illusion.

Starving patriarchy means letting this low-consciousness and dysfunctional framework die. This really needs to die because it hurts all of us. This is serious and not funny.

And we should not be silent or afraid, but bring the shadows and the dysfunctionalities to the surface, look them in the eyes, and strive for a better reality for all.

Feminists actually put a huge mirror in front of society, which society rejects, even liberals reject it, because this a threat, because truth can be too intimidating and unfamiliar, and people cling to the familiarity and comfort of their culture, which is strongly tied to their identity and survival.

Talking about these issues is not an attack on someone, but rather an invitation to look deeper and to think and reflect. Those who feel triggered when the truth comes to the surface and is put in front of their face need to contemplate why. Why do they feel so defensive? Is it because they participate in it and uphold it? 

This is very difficult to engage with people who have never read any feminist literature, who have never seriously contemplated this issue, or who have never been directly affected by it. It is heartbreaking that in what we call a spiritual forum, in which you would usually expect more open-minded and truth-seeking people, you encounter the same closed-minded mindset you would encounter from a "normie." Instead of people engaging with openness and curiosity, they are acting defensive and toxic, distorting and strawmanning what we say. And we have nothing to do with it. Like, really. I can talk about it here, but this all falls on deaf ears. This is actually a good example of conformity and how difficult it is to engage with a herd of like-minded people and how difficult it is to challenge the status quo.

I have a feeling the patriarchy might be imploding in on itself much faster than we think. God bless.

[Rafael Thundercat]

One point here for the ones explicitly,subtly and sneakly dissmising structural issues. 

 

A while ago, someone commented : "Live and let live." under one post of a writer that brings up structural analysis including Patriarchy, Racism,Whiteness, Neo-colonialism

Is the logic that "Life is just like this" "Nature,God whatever just wished this way" 

And honestly, the context almost doesn't matter, but when we are debating  about systemic issues. we are not not debating whether pineapple belongs on pizza or whether someone prefers cucumber or lemon slices in their water. we are talking about structures. Power. Violence. Exploitation dressed up as normality. The kind of things that should not simply be "lived with," but questioned, challenged, and dismantled.

So when someone says "live and let live" in response to structural critique, I immediately know one of two things: either they fundamentally do not understand systems, or they do understand them and simply benefit from pretending they don't.

The phrase itself sounds harmless. It has the energy of a wooden sign in an Airbnb kitchen next to a surfboard. Relaxed. Easy. Deeply committed to never having to think too hard. But beneath its peaceful little surface sits one of the most effective status quo preservation mechanisms of our time. Because "live and let live" only works in a world where everyone has equal power to live.

And that world does not exist.

One of the teachings that mattered most in yoga is cause and effect. Not in the Instagram-spirituality sense where people post "good vibes attract good vibes" sitting in a Bali rice field and call it enlightenment. I mean the actual principle: everything we do — and everything we refuse to do — creates consequences.

Every action shapes a relationship. Every silence protects something. Every refusal to engage has a beneficiary. Nothing exists in isolation, no matter how badly modern individualism wants us to believe otherwise.

Is all the systems that exist are natural, God inspired and not needed to be undertood and dismantled for the sake of a better future so all the rants about corruption by Leo or anyone wherr need to stop full on and be considered inproductive since we are just debating systems that exist and are natural and ee better shut up and live and let live.