Drama Alert! Another YTber is calling us a cult! 😈☦️

[Joshe]

2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

So can behaviour change the system in your view? Or it can't?

Good question, but It's not an easy one to answer because the architecture itself determines how much modification is possible and on which axis. I'll spare us both from me trying to unpack that. 

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You also presuppose a relatively fixed system with it's own inertia patterns, but if behaviour feeds back into structure, then isn't the system by definition composed of accumulated behaviour?

It's only composed of accumulated behavior up to a certain point. You seem to be saying the mind is almost fully malleable.

What would it take for you to value monster truck racing or competitive sports? Truly value it, not just come to appreciate it, but actually truly care about it? Would your architecture allow for that, or no? If not, how come? Not sure about you, but there's no behavior mod that could make me care about it. Once the architecture is in place, it's in place. 

Also, there's changing things like state, experience, emotions, relation, etc, but that's different from architecture. The architecture stays largely unchanged regardless of your behavior or experience, i.e, you can't turn an extrovert into an introvert without breaking the mould - they'd become depressed. Same thing happens to narcissists when they experience "narcissistic collapse" when their supply dries up.

Narcissism is architecture. It's a deep structure, not a bad behavior that can be changed. It would take an insane amount of effort and intention to uproot it, and even then, the best they could hope for is marginal gains. 

Think about an AA veteran who is 876 days sober and they carry their chip with them and they orient their entire lives around avoiding a specific behavior. How come they can't stop the maintenance? Because if they do, even after years of behavior modification, they will relapse. The vigilance and maintenance is indefinitely necessary because behavior isn't enough.

[zurew]

4 hours ago, Joshe said:

Would an apology and behavior change really do it for you? 

If Leo never uttered a single word of his specialness and never put anyone else down, and conversed in good faith from this day forward, do you think that's an acceptable termination of this issue?

I dont know what you mean by "acceptable" there.   What I meant  is that I gave 3 actionable  steps  (that i think) could significantly lower down cult dynamics here (once they are consistently and systematically applied).  The reason why I focused on those "surface" things is because we interact online, so when it comes to the issues related to cult dynamics - online interactions -  are the things  that necessarily need to be changed. Now, if that change can be achieved multiple different ways (for instance, without him necessarily needing to resolve psychological trauma or without him needing to go to a psychologist or to a psychiatrist) then I would rather not delay potential behavior change and would rather not constrain down the solution space to only such options.

Now, If you try to attack that and say "okay, but what you are asking for seems easy on the surface, but realistically cant be done, because Leo has deeply rooted psychological issues and he needs to heal those first" Okay, then if you are right about your trauma diagnosis, and if you are also right about what has to be done first before online interactions can be changed, then Leo needs to do that if he wants to lower down cult dynamics here.

5 hours ago, Joshe said:

Also, this isn't something Leo can likely solve since behavior is a symptom of underlying psychology. It's not like Leo has just been rude or something and needs to be nicer.

I also argued for some of the things you said related to psychology and deeper issues - but again, this is what I can do - outline issues with behavior , give my opinion about probably why he behaved the way he did (largely agree with you here about potential psychological issues and with psychotic tendencies) and then outline what I think should be changed with respect to online interactions (because again, online interactions are the most relevant to the cult dynamic issue, because we only interact online). I have no way to compel Leo to consult a psychologist or psychiatrist,and my interpretation of his situation could be incorrect.

 

[Joshe]

4 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You could look at the entire purpose of this discussion as a method to illuminate patterns /  the problem. Awareness is the first step. However, many seem to treat the conclusion as already settled. If that's the case, then I see continued engagement less as an honest inquiry and more as bad-faith drama or point-scoring.

Not everything is about Leo and not everyone is an egotist.

My intention was to let the few who can see understand that nothing Leo does will be good enough for them to set aside their animosity because they can't unsee what they've seen, and that holding out hope for an extreme narcissist to rehabilitate is naive, thus my explanation.

"Inference and assumptions" as you like to say.

Carry on. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

11 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Not everything is about Leo and not everyone is an egotist.

My intention was to let the few who can see understand that nothing Leo does will be good enough for them to set aside their animosity because they can't unsee what they've seen, and that holding out hope for an extreme narcissist to rehabilitate is naive, thus my explanation.

"Inference and assumptions" as you like to say.

Carry on. 

@Joshe so you are proposing Leo is a narcissist of some type? The arguments you present continually revert back to making a claim around this structure. 

If you want to claim this isn't about Leo, sure. Go ahead. But it's the context of this discussion. I perceive it strange to revert to this sort of rewind, like suddenly totally changing context. But hey, it's your statement. And again, it just might not be clear to me exactly where you are going with the above.

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

19 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Joshe so you are proposing Leo is a narcissist of some type? The arguments you present continually revert back to making a claim around this structure. 

If you want to claim this isn't about Leo, sure. Go ahead. But it's the context of this discussion. I perceive it strange to revert to this sort of rewind, like suddenly totally changing context. But hey, it's your statement.

lol, come on bruh. Don't do dis. 

I'm not proposing that Leo is a narcissist. I'm telling you flat out that that is the case and is largely the source of the cult accusations. The cult accusations are downstream of his narcissism. But I'm not here to argue with you or anyone else on this. 

If you go back and read my first post with fresh eyes, see if you can discern my intent since I've now spelled it out for you. 

It was mostly addressed to Zurew because I can relate to his animosity. And I thought that the main reason he puts this much energy and effort into shining a light on these things is because he's hopeful for this place and would like to see it be better. I wanted to share my perspective and let him and others know that to hold out hope doesn't make sense because it's structural and nothing Leo can likely fix. He'll be the same narcissist he's always been 5 years from now. Will the same people still be here going on about this issue? Maybe. So, I thought I'd offer what I think is a useful and accurate perspective. I'm not like you or whoever you're modeling that cares about scoring points or stirring shit up. See if you can see how the entire point of my initial message communicates my stated intent. 

Anyway, I've shared my thoughts, take it easy. Good night hot mama 

Edited 3 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe cool - and no you didn't state that overtly. I actually wanted to know if that was your claim. Otherwise I may have made an incorrect inference.

Either I didn't see you state it earlier, or you didn't state it until now. 

Quote

 You seem to be saying the mind is almost fully malleable.

Never said that. My questions were to make out your thoughts. You never asked if I thought there were some structures that were more immutable. There are. But claiming outright you think Leo is a narcissist works with the argument his structure is more rigid - so it's part of what you base your original statement on. My only thought there is that we cannot be certain of that point, although it's a reasonable one to make given evidence others have supplied. Therein lies the assumption (which I do not contest is a strong one or not, I merely was seeking clarity) See below.

Not sure why the sarcasm either? I thought we were having a good discussion. Also I've made wrong assumptions about what you state in the past, I didn't want to make that mistake again ... Which is why the questions.

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

lol, come on bruh. Don't do dis. 

I'm not proposing that Leo is a narcissist. I'm telling you flat out that that is the case and is largely the source of the cult accusations. The cult accusations are downstream of his narcissism. But I'm not here to argue with you or anyone else on this. 

If you go back and read my first post with fresh eyes, see if you can discern my intent since I've now spelled it out for you. 

It was mostly addressed to Zurew because I can relate to his animosity. And I thought that the main reason he puts this much energy and effort into shining a light on these things is because he's hopeful for this place and would like to see it be better. I wanted to share my perspective and let him and others know that to hold out hope doesn't make sense because it's structural and nothing Leo can likely fix. He'll be the same narcissist he's always been 5 years from now. Will the same people still be here going on about this issue? Maybe. So, I thought I'd offer what I think is a useful and accurate perspective. I'm not like you or whoever you're modeling that cares about scoring points or stirring shit up. See if you can see how the entire point of my initial message communicates my stated intent. 

Anyway, I've shared my thoughts, take it easy. Good night hot mama 

I tend to agree with you but lets explore narcissism vs arrogance.  What qualities of narcissism do you believe he has that makes him more in that category than just someone who is arrogant, and believes they are superior.  Also note that a lot of people who want to portray tbey are superior are actually insecure.   But anyway I find this ironic since he criticizes Trump so much for being a narcissist.  

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Inliytened1

[zurew]

21 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I tend to agree with you but lets explore narcissism vs arrogance.  What qualities of narcissism do you believe he has that makes him more in that category than just someone who is arrogant, and believes they are superior.  Also note that a lot of people who want to portray tbey are superior are actually insecure.   But anyway I find this ironic since he criticizes Trump so much for being a narcissist

I think its worth it to point out the difference and to explore the difference there, but I want to point out that we might end up doing the same thing as what happened with other concepts like "cult"  - where we end up largely agreeing on all the descriptive facts, we will just put a different label on those facts.

I think one aspect is around control and around putting down others . Its one thing to say that you think you are better than others, its another to say that you are better than literally everyone else on Earth and its another to consistently and in an emotionally charged way compulsively put down everyone  who dares to disagree with you on the fact that you are better than everyone else on Earth.

Before anyone object here to the word "better" - by that I mean Leo meaning to be more conscious and with that more intelligent than everyone else on Earth (because btw he largely defines intelligence as something very closely related to level of consciousness).

 

Edited 1 hour ago by zurew