Drama Alert! Another YTber is calling us a cult! 😈☦️

[Natasha Tori Maru]

37 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Is there any spiritual group out there who has been better prepared than this one, to look out for the faintest signs of cultish behavior though ?

I think it is exactly this type of thinking that could be the blind spot. I think this could be looked at as an 'in group' type of cognitive bias.

The claim that we would be hard pressed to find another community better prepared, isn't strong to me. There are many closed of groups, communities and segments of society we don't have access to.

We just don't know.

Edited 4 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Wilhelm44]

17 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think it is exactly this type of thinking that could be the blind spot.

The claim that we would be hard pressed to find another community better prepared isn't strong to me. There are many closed of groups, communities and segments of society we don't have access to.

We just don't know.

Well yeah if you look at the example of the cult mentioned by @Carl-Richard, it started out as a regular meditation group and then somehow morphed into a cult. So what to do (spoken with an Indian accent.)  Do you think you're in a cult ?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Wilhelm44 

Does the framing of the question refer back to 'this place' as a basis for answer? 

Cults or no - it's a spectrum. Not a binary thing. 

[Wilhelm44]

It's tricky because so many things can point to potential cultish behavior, but at the same time it can also have nothing to do with cultish behavior. I mentioned the fact that a few mods were hammering on Leo's remarks about telling Carl Richard that these cult accusations is making him feel that he doesn't even want to teach him anymore. And I acknowledged that Carl Richard felt personally threatened at the time. Simultaneously though there have been so many instances in my life when I have heard frustrated teachers utter the exact same words with regards to an unruly class, ie absolutely no cultish intentions present. @Natasha Tori Maru  And I haven't seen any of the mods acknowledge the fact that they could have been wrong in their interpretations there.

[Wilhelm44]

8 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Wilhelm44 

Does the framing of the question refer back to 'this place' as a basis for answer? 

Cults or no - it's a spectrum. Not a binary thing. 

I don't know, I think the spectrum thing is a bit of a cop out when it comes to defining a cult. That means literally every group in the world is partly cult.

 

[Wilhelm44]

I play tennis every week with 3 other guys. I wouldn't say that group is on the cult spectrum.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Wilhelm44 I think there is a large spectrum of variation regarding users and how entrenched they are in the community. 

You could very, very reasonably argue some members exhibit cult like thinking, behaviour and bias. This could point to a degree of rhetorical circular arguments and traps being present in teaching - or it could be that certain types of poeple naturally exhibit cult like thinking and they bring it TO the teaching themselves. This is further supported looking at how frequently people come to Leo or his teachings for help, for guidance, for someone to look up to. You could argue many are already in a primed and compromised state to be brainwashed.

I good indicator might be looking at actualized.org followers as a whole and assessing for % of this type of thinking. One might reasonably infer, if there was a large or overwhelming portion of users who fell within this umbrella, that there was a problem with the teaching methods themselves that lends toward a mind control/rhetoric/trap like thinking. But the same again could be said regarding the type of people who go to Leo. Self help at first, then spirituality as a natural stepping stone (many users report this as their path!) 

Overall I think there are only a few members who present with belief systems instilled by Leo that follow a cult pattern. But Leo often reports to test everything for yourself. Not believe what he says. And then, as presented by @zurew, when cornered, he is often presents himself as the arbiter of knowing who is God realised. Who isn't. The Truth. This seriously undermines users soveriegnty after the conflicting statement 'find out for yourself, don't believe what I have to say.' 

There's an inconsistent message there that, I believe, does need to be addressed by Leo. On the one hand it's 'only you know, test for yourself' and on the other 'only I, Leo, know who is this or that'. 

He positions himself as authority regarding truth in this way. Which is the launchpad for the brainwashing argument. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

13 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I don't know, I think the spectrum thing is a bit of a cop out when it comes to defining a cult. That means literally every group in the world is partly cult.

 

Yes that's what a spectrum is. I think you might have negative connotations with the word and concept of cult? But remember this is just my definition (that it's not a binary yes/no). I find the binary one to be reductionist, and a way to neatly draw lines so we don't have to deal with inspecting our own beliefs and propensity for deception.

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Wilhelm44 also to respect your question - I do not think I am part of a cult.

Is this place a cult, though? I am entirely undecided. This is why this topic is intriguing and enlightening to me. And not damning or negative. I remain neutral and open to both sides.

[Wilhelm44]

8 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Wilhelm44 also to respect your question - I do not think I am part of a cult.

Is this place a cult, though? I am entirely undecided. This is why this topic is intriguing and enlightening to me. And not damning or negative. I remain neutral and open to both sides.

Thank you, yeah my gut says we're okay.

[Wilhelm44]

15 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Yes that's what a spectrum is. I think you might have negative connotations with the word and concept of cult? But remember this is just my definition (that it's not a binary yes/no). I find the binary one to be reductionist, and a way to neatly draw lines so we don't have to deal with inspecting our own beliefs and propensity for deception.

I hear you. I remember Leo saying something to the effect of: there is no such thing as a good cult. What do you think ?

[Wilhelm44]

I'm just curious, in this whole discussion I have been asked a couple of times now to state my definition of a cult.

Is there really no officially accepted definition of a cult out there ?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I hear you. I remember Leo saying something to the effect of: there is no such thing as a good cult. What do you think ?

You can make the statement "there is no such thing as a good cult' if you define cult as a binary thing. So, if I were to adopt Leo's terminology and strict definition - this would be true.

But since I adopt that a cult and cult dynamics are a spectrum - I would not agree. Cult-lite might not be so bad, it might not have all the hallmarks of a cult. Namely - the very bad characteristics. So lets say I brainstorm the spectrum for what a cult is: 

• Strong devotion to a leader, idea, or doctrine.
• Isolation from outside influences, such as family, friends, or mainstream society.
• Pressure to conform.
• Discourage questioning or criticism.
• Control over members' behavior, information, or relationships.
• Us-versus-them mentality, viewing outsiders as misguided or hostile.

The above marked up in red might be the bad cults. The normal text might be the non-bad cult-lite 

When we all have these alternate terms, the whole thing gets bricked. We cannot really have a good discussion until terms and defined.

And the term "cult" is not defined

[Natasha Tori Maru]

10 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I'm just curious, in this whole discussion I have been asked a couple of times now to state my definition of a cult.

Is there really no officially accepted definition of a cult out there ?

I think it is complex because the term cult is applied different in different domains as it applies:

Sociology, religious studies, psychology, popular usage, law, anthropology and history etc

They all have different definitions going from pure or conceptual to applied and evaluative or pragmatic.

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Wilhelm44]

@Natasha Tori Maru  Thank you.

[Wilhelm44]

7 hours ago, zurew said:

Instead of doubling down and trying to shove down your one highly specific and conveniently declared defintion of cult inside everyone's throats in a way where you also imply that everyone who disagree with you on that must be wrong and there is no room for disagreement -  you can just stop playing  superiority games and you can just stop undermining literally everyone else's takes and views on things you care about and these threads are gonna die very quick and they will lose all of their appeal.

 its very very easy for you to stop , but you choose to continue. You continue to play superiority games and you continue to undermine everyone's sovereignty except the ones who agree with you perfectly on things you personally care about.

This is all on you. 

You can at any given moment : stop declaring yourself to be the exclusive and proper standard of epistemology , and stop explicitly saying and stop implying that everyone else is spiritually and or cognitively impaired for disagreeing with you on matters that you care about and you can stop at any moment declaring yourself to be the most conscious human being in the universe.

 

 

Make it very clear, that your belief  about you being the most conscious human being in the Universe and about you accessing the highest states relies on you making assumptions about data that you dont have any access to. You dont have any access to anyone's history on how conscious they are or what states they achieved or what awakening they have had  - you rely on making inferences about those things based on your trips and based on your awakenings . But you know this very well, that making inferences  is not a foolproof epistemic activity, and you know very well, that inferences are subject to be wrong, and you would never ever in your life (including your fans) accept or entertain such an inference to be made by any other spiritual teacher (let alone by any of your non-suckup members), so stop pretending that its a legitimate move  and stop pretending that that claim of yours is unshakeable and that you have grounds to make that claim in any definitive way.

None of the suckups here who rhetorically ask the question of "but how do you know that Leo is wrong about him being the most conscious being in the Universe" ask the same question to themselves in a way where the subject of that question (Leo) is changed to a different person . Leo cant answer this question in any definitive way either  , but for some reason the suckups pretend and demand from non-suckups to give a definitive answer to that question, because if they cant, then they must be closed minded and must not be doing the "real" work.

Most non-suckups dont make the claim that they definitively know that Leo isn't the most conscious being in the Universe, they rather say that no one knows who is the most conscious being in the Universe, because no one has access to all the relevant data to make that evaluation (and this is aside from the obvious issue that there is no definitive and indepedent answer about what standard should even be used to make the evaluation in the firstplace).

To be very very clear on this - Its the suckups and Leo who pretend that they know beyond any doubt what standard needs to be used for that evaluation  and its the suckups and Leo who make that leap of faith (about Leo being the most conscious being in the Universe) and they are the ones who diss non-suckups for not doing the same.

Even granting your whole epistemic frame about Relativity and there being ever deeper awakenings and that previous awakenings and inights are never undermined by deeper awakenings (just only recontextualized) - you never addressed the epistemic issues that comes with such a frame and again granting that such a frame is true, that just gives you even more reason to not make definitive statements about how how deep other people have gone.

 

Ask yourself this question - Why must everyone hold the belief that Leo is the most conscious human being in the Universe?

If the answer to that is that none of that is necessary, then why continue to engage in that dynamic and why continue to contribute to such dynamic ? A dynamic, that creates more blind suckups and a dynamic, that creates an idol from Leo and distract people away from doing the work.

Why is it not enough to make the claim that there might be more that can be achieved (for instance, if they did x,y,z spiritual practices)? If the answer to that is "because they are the kind of bunch, who are not open to the fact that they can be wrong and that there is more" - in that case, explain to us how is your solution helpful in persuading those people (those, who you actually think are belong in the closed-minded category) by making yourself to be an idol?

Leo tell us again, why is the idolization of yourself is necessary to achieve any of your goals? And before  you will dishonestly make your caveat  again that you can be full of shit - here is a post you making that caveat and clarifying but not on this issue (about you being the most conscious being in the Universe)

Leo also tell us a story about how you banning people and how you threatening that you will ban them (if they dare to disagree with you on the fact that you are not the most conscious being in the Universe and or that you might be wrong about spirituality ) contributes and contributed to their development, contributes and contributed to their wellbeing?

Leo tell us a story about how you treating everyone like a retarded child the moment they disagree with you on things you care about helps them in any way at all? 

Leo tell us how you rountinely Gashlighting people like this is helpful to anyone at all ? 

Leo tell us why you treat your non-suckup moderators like this and tell us how  playing these mind games [1 , 2] on them help them in any way at all? Especially the part where you PM them" to talk it out"

Why not for once in your life -  answer these questions plainly in detail with actual substance  without redirecting, without accusing people of not understanding or being purportedly disrespectful for having a different opinion?

It use to annoy me that there was this guy out there claiming to be the most conscious person in the world. Somehow I don't even think about that anymore. Not quite sure how that happened  

[Osaid]

IMO, at the very least, there has to be an authoritarian element, not just "strange beliefs". I spoke a more strict definition before, but I wont repeat that just to keep things more loose for everyone.

There is also a useful distinction we can make between cult dynamics and an actual cult. Cult dynamics can exist in lots of different areas of society without belonging to a full-blown cult. One dynamic wouldn't make for a cult, but if a lot of them co-existed together, then that could reasonably be defined as a cult. This is similar to how the DSM-5 diagnoses disorders like BPD and NPD. One BPD trait doesn't make you BPD, but enough of them together does.

In my opinion, the deciding factor comes down to whether Actualized.org is being authoritarian or not, and to what degree. At the very least, there are definitely quite a few cult dynamics at play already.

It has also come to my attention that I can't speak for everyone on the forum. Maybe Leo is DMing people things I don't know about. This made me realize how important it is for other members to speak up too, and also the fact that it might not be possible for me to decide on my own whether it is or isn't a cult based on my current information.

Here are some Google AI results which I think are pretty accurate:

[Wilhelm44]

12 minutes ago, Osaid said:

IMO, at the very least, there has to be an authoritarian element, not just "strange beliefs". I spoke a more strict definition before, but I wont repeat that just to keep things more loose for everyone.

There is also a useful distinction we can make between cult dynamics and an actual cult. Cult dynamics can exist in lots of different areas of society without belonging to a full-blown cult. One dynamic wouldn't make for a cult, but if a lot of them co-existed together, then that could reasonably be defined as a cult. This is similar to how the DSM-5 diagnoses disorders like BPD and NPD. One BPD trait doesn't make you BPD, but enough of them together does.

In my opinion, the deciding factor comes down to whether Actualized.org is being authoritarian or not, and to what degree. At the very least, there are definitely quite a few cult dynamics at play already.

It has also come to my attention that I can't speak for everyone on the forum. Maybe Leo is DMing people things I don't know about. This made me realize how important it is for other members to speak up too, and also the fact that it might not be possible for me to decide on my own whether it is or isn't a cult based on my current information.

Here are some Google AI results which I think are pretty accurate:

Yeah it's a tricky business. Some things link up, or could be perceived as linking up, with the definition and some things don't.

For example: "demanding unwavering loyalty." I think I have heard Leo say many times that we should not just listen to his teachings, but rather we should study the work of many spiritual teachers. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Wilhelm44

[Wilhelm44]

6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

That's maybe one thing to remember when you're shooting up 5-MeO at Leo's not-cult retreat and he's the one who starts believing the ghosts are out to get him.

Respectfully, do you think there might be a small chance that you're projecting some past experiential residues onto this one ?

Edited 1 hour ago by Wilhelm44

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm44 said:

It use to annoy me that there was this guy out there claiming to be the most conscious person in the world. Somehow I don't even think about that anymore. Not quite sure how that happened  

I updated my post.

You can disagree , but your point does not address the issues that I outlined.

From now on its on Leo to actually respond to those points if he wants to.