Depersonalisation ≠ Enlightenment

[Breakingthewall]

58 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Are you exactly the same as you are now, as you were 5, 10, 15 years ago? 

Yes in the sense that I am the recognition of myself , and myself is what is. 

Edited April 16 by Breakingthewall

[Natasha Tori Maru]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes in the sense that I am the recognition of myself , and myself is what is. 

No. In terms of history and experience. You are the exact same now as prior to the last 10 years? The same as when you were 12?

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

No. In terms of history and experience. You are the exact same now as prior to the last 10 years? The same as when you were 12?

In essence yes, exactly the same always. In form no, but form is permanent change, form and change are synonyms. The yes, I'm the same than when i was 12: what is, and because is is permanent change. Same than you or everything else. 

But we are talking about the self. The self is the sense of myself , then as a self , I was the sense of myself when I was 12 and now. The content is irrelevant, the fact is relevant 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

In essence yes, exactly the same always. In form no, but form is permanent change, form and change are synonyms. The yes, I'm the same than when i was 12: what is, and because is is permanent change. Same than you or everything else. 

But we are talking about the self. The self is the sense of myself , then as a self , I was the sense of myself when I was 12 and now. The content is irrelevant, the fact is relevant 

You don't think it is strange that you have such a rigid, fixed sense of self? 

I only ask because this seems closed. Not open. Openness is something you seem to speak on a lot.

If you were to get married, have kids, and divorse - you would be EXACTLY the same as before. Your memories all the same. The experience wouldn't change you AT ALL? 

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

you were to get married, have kids, and divorse - you would be EXACTLY the same as before. Your memories all the same. The experience wouldn't change you AT ALL? 

The experience changes, but the self is not the experience, is the sense of yourself. The conversation with vegan awake was about if the self is real or not. He says that it isn't, I say that it's real, is a construction that happens being human that makes that you are aware of yourself. It's the fact of being conscious of yourself 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

The experience changes, but the self is not the experience, is the sense of yourself. The conversation with vegan awake was about if the self is real or not. He says that it isn't, I say that it's real, is a construction that happens being human that makes that you are aware of yourself. It's the fact of being conscious of yourself 

I'm speaking of the personality self.

Not Self.

This is why I ask you, because I think you are speaking of a different thing.

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I'm speaking of the personality self.

Not Self.

This is why I ask you, because I think you are speaking of a different thing.

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

 

Maybe we are talking of different things, what I mean is that the personality is not the self, the personality is how the self manifest, but not what the self is. The self is the sense of yourself. Not the sense of yourself as a woman or man or depressed or anything but the fact of being aware of yourself 

Edited April 16 by Breakingthewall

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe we are talking of different things, what I mean is that the personality is not the self, the personality is how the self manifest, but not what the self is. The self is the sense of yourself. Not the sense of yourself as a woman or man or depressed or anything but the fact of being aware of yourself 

I wonder what @VeganAwake is referring to then, as I think it could be different. My understanding of what they express is different to you.

[Breakingthewall]

17 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I wonder what @VeganAwake is referring to then, as I think it could be different. My understanding of what they express is different to you.

17 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I

He says that the self is an illusion or a misunderstanding 

[Hyperion]

On 16.4.2026 at 10:13 PM, UnbornTao said:

By the way, I am from Uranus, too!

I guess that's why I've had such a itchy feeling down there for the past couple of days. 

@Natasha Tori Maru

Arguing about whether there is a self or not is like debating whether spaghetti are pasta or noodles... potentially entertaining, but ultimately pointless.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Hyperion was I arguing - or trying to understand someone's worldview? 

[Hyperion]

22 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Hyperion was I arguing - or trying to understand someone's worldview? 

I'd say that's relative. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Hyperion said:

I'd say that's relative. 

To be clear it was me probing to understand what they were both referring to

Self is thrown around as a full loaded term around here ...

[Carl-Richard]

On 17.4.2026 at 1:01 AM, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I'm speaking of the personality self.

Not Self.

This is why I ask you, because I think you are speaking of a different thing.

📞*123-actualized-thread* "Hello, do we speak concepts here or only words? Thought so."📞 ☎️💢

😝

Edited Wednesday at 11:40 PM by Carl-Richard

[Hyperion]

@Natasha Tori Maru

Gotcha. 😘

@Carl-Richard

It is always hilarious to see how caught up people get in their labels, concepts and perspectives... when the solution to the whole conundrum is so incredibly simple. You only need to ask yourself the following question:

Does that which I am referring to when I use word (or phrase) X have an opposite?

If the answer is yes, then it is relative. If the answer is no, then it is Absolute.

Simple as that. 🕉

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:16 AM by Hyperion

[Ry4n]

No self implies the self is interconnected with everything else, and so even in a dissociated type of state one could feel themselves as omnipresent like space without a centre or movement and still interconnected with the whole but seeing the contents of consciousness from a more comfortable distance.
The more of a distance from the contents of consciousness there is, the more depersonalisation-like the experience is, hence why grounding practices like yoga can aid in creating more connected unity experiences that actually enhance one’s sense of being grounded, rather than disrupting it.

[Inliytened1]

On 4/9/2026 at 1:27 PM, Hyperion said:

As a spiritual seeker, you may have heard many teachers say that spiritual awakening is the end of the personal self. While such claims have undeniable relative value/validity and can serve as effective pointers towards the realization of Absolute Truth (aka. spiritual awakening), it is important to keep in mind that all such statements regarding the "true nature of reality" (and the recognition thereof) can by definition only ever be relatively true, but never absolutely true.

To appreciate why this is the case, it is necessary to understand what the word "Absolute" refers to:

The Absolute is the infinite field of reality which includes and gives rise to all possible qualities; every quality that there is (and could be) is a relative aspect of that which is Absolute, meaning that anything that you can name, think of and experience is it - and also, it's not it. 

As outlined in my little "theory" above, consciousness must constantly oscillate between contrasting qualitative states, for without such oscillation the experience of reality would not be possible. (An experience = a relative quality or set of qualities that "stands out" from the infinite sum total of all qualities and thereby comes into existence). This is why all polarities such as "self/no-self", "personal/impersonal", "limited/unlimited" etc. essentially represent two (relative) sides of the same (absolute) coin, since they can only exist and be experienced in relation and contrast to each other.

Where there is no Yin, there can be no Yang... and vice versa.

However, once (your) consciousness enters a high-frequency meta-state where all seeming opposites are recognized as equally valid facets and expressions of the same infinite Reality, there is now a sort of simultaneous meta-experience of self and no-self, personal and impersonal, limited and unlimited and all other complementary opposite aspects of the Absolute. So in one sense, all of these relative aspects/perspectives are still "online" and fully available to you; and in another sense, they simply cease to have any meaningful significance since all conceptual definitions are now seen to be nothing but mere arbitrary labels. When the pendulum of consciousness swings so fast that contrasting qualities are being experienced simultaneously (as it were), they essentially merge together and neutralize each other... and what remains is the ineffable Divine that contains and transcends absolutely everything and is impossible to speak of.

So while it is true that upon awakening there is no more solid sense of self, there is also no solid sense of no-self once you have truly passed through the proverbial gateless gate. Seemingly conflicting statements such as  "I exist as a person" and "I don't exist as a person" are now just as equally meaningful/meaningless to you as all other verbal utterances (aka. relative perspectives); you may still emphasize one aspect over the other in order to make a spiritual, philosophical or ethical point(er), but there will be no more dogged attachment to either side of the all-encompassing Coin. Depersonalisation on the other hand signifies being (often involuntarily) attached to and stuck in a specific relative perspective; it means that there has been a shift from personhood to non-personhood, and now the latter perspective is being mistaken for absolute truth and thereby made into an (egoic) identity. (If it sounds strange and unbelievable to you that it should be possible to construct an identity that is based on the tenet of "I don't exist", then you really don't know just how enduring, clever and creative the egoic mind is... trust me, it can make an identity out of ANYTHING, lol).

To be clear: For some people, temporary depersonalization may in fact be a necessary phase or stage of their awakening journey; it may just be the appropriate antidote that will over time cure them from their attachment to "being someone", so none of this is meant to be an indictment that points out some kind of shortcoming or character flaw on your or someone else's part. All I am saying is that it is beneficial to see things for what they are(n't) and that there is no need to overly indulge in and willfully prolong such transitory phases. After all, the point of awakening is not to trade in one attachment-based identity for another, but rather to transcend all identity and fully thrust yourself into the great unknown which is quite literally beyond description.

But then again, in case you prefer to foster your depersonalisation and milk it to the very last drop, then by all means... depersonalize away. 

It has a lot of similarities to depersonalization.  Its very similar.  Ive experienced both.  Enlightenment is something more profound but they are very similar.

[Breakingthewall]

8 hours ago, Ry4n said:

No self implies the self is interconnected with everything else,

But this is still a self. An interconnected one, but a self. No self is almost impossible being human because there is sense of yourself. Maybe in some cases, a mystic in total trance who in that moment doesn't know that he's a human in trance, but that disconnection of the architecture of the self is very rare and impossible in most of the cases, because it's written in the brain, real neurological structures create by evolution 

Edited 4 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Mellowmarsh]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

But this is still a self. An interconnected one, but a self. No self is almost impossible being human because there is sense of yourself.

An interconnected one would be recognised as this 👉The Bardo of Dharmata (Clear Light): Immediately after death, the mind is stripped of its physical body and sensory input, laying bare its fundamental nature. This "no-thingness" or empty, radiant awareness is the fundamental ground of being.

 

So that’s where the sense of self (the human) goes every night during deep dreamless sleep. It dies. Sleep is just death that one wakes up from multiple times infinitely for eternity. 

Death is not what thought thinks it is. Death is the gap between thoughts. 
 

The bardo state is a transitional intermediate state—most commonly between death and rebirth. Or, sleep and awakening from sleep.

 

[Breakingthewall]

19 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Sleep is just death that one wakes up from multiple times infinitely for eternity

When you awake after sleeping there is continuity, but when you die, you die. Reality remains, but you, the human structure, doesn't. Well, some talk about different dimensions, you never know, but it's not relevant imo, the point is the openess now.