Do you really need guidance for developing spirituality?

[Mixcoatl]

As I have been working with substances like LSD and bufo, one of the main challenges I continually encounter is how easy it is to construct belief systems and mistake them for truth.

I spend a significant amount of time watching videos from various teachers and thinkers such as idealist philosophers and scientists, which has been valuable, as without them I might feel somewhat lost or disconnected. However, this is also where the problem arises. Each time I return from a bufo experience, I find myself trying to interpret what I experienced through the lens of what I’ve heard from these guides. In doing so, I sometimes attempt to convince myself that I’ve realized more than I actually have.

At this point, there are certain insights from my experiences that feel undeniably true, while others, especially those described by some teachers, remain uncertain to me. Despite this, I notice a tendency in myself to want to believe them anyway.

Because of this, I’m beginning to feel that it may be more beneficial to step back from external sources of guidance for a while and focus instead on forming my own understanding of truth based on direct experience.

I’m not sure if this is the best approach for my development, because before listening to teachers, I couldn’t understand what was happening during my LSD experiences.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Mixcoatl said:

it may be more beneficial to step back from external sources of guidance for a while and focus instead on forming my own understanding of truth based on direct experience.

Yes, this is necessary at the highest stages.

[Willy Phallicus]

The best advice you're going to get from any guru or manual is to go within and disregard external influences.  So yeah, just follow it.

[Davino]

Both can happen simultaneously. I have to share that my spiritual advancement has become so quick thanks to an obsessive study of the greatest mystics of all time, at the same time these mystics teach you that at the end of the day it's you who do the work and must breakthrough it all, achieving total sovereignty of Mind and God-Realisation, as everything is but a figment of your own mind, hence no figment can shine for the Infinity of all that you are.

Anchoring your mind on the best can give you direction and invaluable advice, but can also trap your consciousness in subtle limitations and delusions.

Breaking free from all anchors will make you more sovereign and intelligent, but on its own may block you reinventing the wheel on consciousness traps already solved.

What is very clear, is that after a certain point nobody will have awaken to what you're Awakening to and then you're totally alone discovering the new frontiers of Consciousness.

[Jordan of the Shire]

2 hours ago, Mixcoatl said:

As I have been working with substances like LSD and bufo, one of the main challenges I continually encounter is how easy it is to construct belief systems and mistake them for truth.

I spend a significant amount of time watching videos from various teachers and thinkers such as idealist philosophers and scientists, which has been valuable, as without them I might feel somewhat lost or disconnected. However, this is also where the problem arises. Each time I return from a bufo experience, I find myself trying to interpret what I experienced through the lens of what I’ve heard from these guides. In doing so, I sometimes attempt to convince myself that I’ve realized more than I actually have.

At this point, there are certain insights from my experiences that feel undeniably true, while others, especially those described by some teachers, remain uncertain to me. Despite this, I notice a tendency in myself to want to believe them anyway.

Because of this, I’m beginning to feel that it may be more beneficial to step back from external sources of guidance for a while and focus instead on forming my own understanding of truth based on direct experience.

I’m not sure if this is the best approach for my development, because before listening to teachers, I couldn’t understand what was happening during my LSD experiences.

The buddha said "sangha is the whole of the path." Sangha are your friends that practice. They can help you move along.

The buddha also said "there must be someone to walk the path" 

 So, yea brother. "feel that it may be more beneficial to step back from external sources of guidance for a while and focus instead on forming my own understanding of truth based on direct experience."

Heck Yea 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:55 AM by Jordan of the Shire

[Carl-Richard]

At least you're here asking for guidance.

You've presented pros and cons of both. Perhaps seeking the middle way is the answer.

Edited yesterday at 01:58 AM by Carl-Richard

[Mixcoatl]

 

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

At least you're here asking for guidance.

I've always found this forum to be a good place where I feel confident asking for guidance.

Thanks to all of you guys, It is much clearer to me now. 

[PenguinPablo]

2 hours ago, Mixcoatl said:

 

I've always found this forum to be a good place where I feel confident asking for guidance.

Thanks to all of you guys, It is much clearer to me 

If your intuition is that your personal understanding will evolve further independently you're likely correct. 

But we still need each other for basic life stuff, human things, etc... Other humans can be quite skillful at that -- and point us in the right direction. 

Don't underestimate the pragmaticism of non spiritual folk. Could come in handy. 

Edited yesterday at 05:52 AM by PenguinPablo

[Leo Gura]

This is why I talk about Sovereignty of Mind and Autonomy.

You are starting to see why that's so important.

Edited yesterday at 06:09 AM by Leo Gura

[Ramasta9]

Think of it this way. Taking substances to develop spirituality is like finding the cheat codes of a game, harnessing the magical powers, and beating the boss. And yet when you don't have the cheat codes, can you defeat the boss? That's the difference between substances and natural development.

Sometimes the cheat codes don't work in the real world, and then what will you do if you never developed the natural skills to beat the game? 

Substances are tools, reminders, 'course-correctors' showing you how and why, but unless you done the work yourself naturally, when you return to your baseline / default state, there's only so much you can embody and hold onto, because you didn't develop the spiritual muscles and foundation naturally beforehand to hold such a high frequency and charge, thus it naturally leaves what cannot sustain it.

Work, apply and integrate what they show you, then if it feels aligned come back for the next level / lesson.

Eventually you may need to drop them altogether at the higher levels, less becomes more.

 

 

 

[Wilhelm44]

8 hours ago, Mixcoatl said:

As I have been working with substances like LSD and bufo, one of the main challenges I continually encounter is how easy it is to construct belief systems and mistake them for truth.

I spend a significant amount of time watching videos from various teachers and thinkers such as idealist philosophers and scientists, which has been valuable, as without them I might feel somewhat lost or disconnected. However, this is also where the problem arises. Each time I return from a bufo experience, I find myself trying to interpret what I experienced through the lens of what I’ve heard from these guides. In doing so, I sometimes attempt to convince myself that I’ve realized more than I actually have.

At this point, there are certain insights from my experiences that feel undeniably true, while others, especially those described by some teachers, remain uncertain to me. Despite this, I notice a tendency in myself to want to believe them anyway.

Because of this, I’m beginning to feel that it may be more beneficial to step back from external sources of guidance for a while and focus instead on forming my own understanding of truth based on direct experience.

I’m not sure if this is the best approach for my development, because before listening to teachers, I couldn’t understand what was happening during my LSD experiences.

Yeah, take LSD etc, and then as an experiment dont watch any videos for a whole week/month, and just focus on ur own insights.

[Wilhelm44]

22 hours ago, Ramasta9 said:

Think of it this way. Taking substances to develop spirituality is like finding the cheat codes of a game, harnessing the magical powers, and beating the boss. And yet when you don't have the cheat codes, can you defeat the boss? That's the difference between substances and natural development.

Sometimes the cheat codes don't work in the real world, and then what will you do if you never developed the natural skills to beat the game? 

Substances are tools, reminders, 'course-correctors' showing you how and why, but unless you done the work yourself naturally, when you return to your baseline / default state, there's only so much you can embody and hold onto, because you didn't develop the spiritual muscles and foundation naturally beforehand to hold such a high frequency and charge, thus it naturally leaves what cannot sustain it.

Work, apply and integrate what they show you, then if it feels aligned come back for the next level / lesson.

Eventually you may need to drop them altogether at the higher levels, less becomes more.

 

 

 

I hear you, and I think we go through phases. My sense though is that no matter how advanced you become, you will still be able to receive benefits from the occasional use of psychedelics. I just dont buy into this thing where people like Adyashanti say they tried psychedelics and it did nothing for them, cause their baseline consciousness is already so high. Yesterday i did 4g of Golden teacher mushrooms. No one is walking around with their baseline consciousness that strong, you wouldnt be able to function. So yeah we go through phases, but psychedelic use as a tool for spiritual advancement, is probably not something i will let go of permanently.

[Ramasta9]

27 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I hear you, and I think we go through phases. My sense though is that no matter how advanced you become, you will still be able to receive benefits from the occasional use of psychedelics. I just dont buy into this thing where people like Adyashanti say they tried psychedelics and it did nothing for them, cause their baseline consciousness is already so high. Yesterday i did 4g of Golden teacher mushrooms. No one is walking around with their baseline consciousness that strong, you wouldnt be able to function. So yeah we go through phases, but psychedelic use as a tool for spiritual advancement, is probably not something i will let go of permanently.

Ahh there's a little misunderstanding here i feel. I'll try to explain...

See, In my experience, the things you realize in the highest states of psychedelics you can realize, see, feel, while at the same time being crystal clear and fully sober, and be able to do daily simple tasks (chop wood, carry watter) ect.. while embodying such a knowingness in the background (so to speak), but the 'hallucinations and visuals / manifestations' all that stuff is simply not there, for all that is "mind" or projection of mind / maya. You can still close your eyes and dissolve reality at will, if that is what you need to experience, but the knowingness of truth of what is remains the same.

The primordial reality is "Awareness" itself, (what Buddha embodied and spoke of), is beyond mind, absolutely. You only see / are the reality itself, which is the mystery, it is like being in the void full time but also being here full time. Feeling / seeing the oneness in all things but simultaneously playing the play, Its like you are there but not there, here but not here, if that makes sense. 

For me this image speaks that level of Self-Realization better than words ever could. It brought me back to what I had forgotten.

I've experienced this state and was engulfed in it for several months at one point, its beyond anything drugs ever did for me because i realized you are the primordial reality, that even the drugs are (within) the reality / true self / true nature, thus when you step back to that level of awareness or consciousness, even the drugs become non-effective and so why there are cases of many masters given the most powerful psychedelics and nothing happens, because they are already at such a state themselves, or even beyond that. This is what I call Mastery of Reality. 

I experienced this on of my my strongest DMT trips, eventually i remembered Buddha and returned to Awarenes / Presence, and everything mind / manifestations / hallucinations, dimensions, entities, all that "thought-stuff" dissolved, and I was just there, totally present and aware, both in total darkness and yet totally light.

I remember one quote: The Sage does not trip or hallucinate, for he is beyond the mind, he is Awareness itself, the Reality itself.

Edited 5 hours ago by Ramasta9

[Wilhelm44]

4 minutes ago, Ramasta9 said:

Ahh there's a little misunderstanding here i feel. I'll try to explain...

See, In my experience, the things you realize in the highest states of psychedelics you can realize, see, feel, while at the same time being crystal clear and fully sober, and be able to do daily simple tasks (chop wood, carry watter) ect.. while embodying such a knowingness in the background (so to speak), but the 'hallucinations and visuals / manifestations' all that stuff is simply not there, for all that is "mind" or projection of mind / maya. You can still close your eyes and dissolve reality at will, if that is what you need to experience, but the knowingness of truth of what is remains the same.

The primordial reality is "Awareness" itself, (what Buddha embodied and spoke of), is beyond mind, absolutely. You only see / are the reality itself, which is the mystery, it is like being in the void full time but also being here full time. Feeling / seeing the oneness in all things but simultaneously playing the play, Its like you are there but not there, if that makes sense. 

For me this image speaks that level of Self-Realization better than words ever could. It brought me back to what I had forgotten.

I've experienced this state and was engulfed in it for several months at one point, its beyond anything drugs ever did for me because i realized you are the primordial reality, that even the drugs are (within) the reality / true self / true nature, thus when you step back to that level of awareness or consciousness, even the drugs become non-effective and so why there are cases of many masters given the most powerful psychedelics and nothing happens, because they are already at such a state themselves, or even beyond that. This is what I call Mastery of Reality. 

I remember one quote: The Sage does not trip or hallucinate, for he is beyond the mind, he is Awareness itself, the Reality itself.

So when you were in that state for several months, did you actually try any psychedelics and it really did nothing to you ?

I dont know man, to me it just seems that amount of consciousness available to one in any given moment has infinite levels to it.

[Ramasta9]

14 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

So when you were in that state for several months, did you actually try any psychedelics and it really did nothing to you ?

I dont know man, to me it just seems that amount of consciousness available to one in any given moment has infinite levels to it.

Its hard to say or even remember, I always had access to them, but i cant recall ever even having the slightest urge to use them as i was already experiencing a type of divine orgasmic state all the time, i rarely even ate, or watched youtube, or was on the computer, or phone, or even interacted with my surroundings and family much. I was mostly in my garden and meditating, being, but at the same time i felt everywhere in the Universe all at once. Nothing could affect nor trigger me. It was like floating, channeling a christ-like energy, literally felt like I could walk on water if i wanted too, had every power in the universe in my fingertips but didn't use or manipulate even the slightest ability.

The divine peace or glimpse of that level of inlightenment was so profound that anything but "simply being" like an animal or plant would be, was already perfectly enough, and every cell of my being sang ALL IS WELL ! Infinite Love / Divine Brilliance and all the most powerful words and meanings you can think of combined in one eternal implosion, and yet even with all these words, it was simply and totally effortless.

This is just my experience from whatever my mind and memory can put into words, maybe one day it will be clearer again. It haunts me... for everything else pales in comparison, sometimes I wish i never experienced it. Its been about 10 years or so since i died... All substances afterwards gave me a glimpse, but its like eating a sugar coated candy shaped like a fruit than the fruit itself directly from the tree, or better, becoming the tree itself and endlessly producing fruit.

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Ramasta9

[Wilhelm44]

6 minutes ago, Ramasta9 said:

Its hard to say or even remember, I always had access to them, but i cant recall ever even having the slightest urge to use them as i was already experiencing a type of divine orgasmic state all the time, i rarely even ate, or watched youtube, or was on the computer, or phone, or even interacted with my surroundings and family much. I was mostly in my garden and meditating, being, but at the same time i felt everywhere in the Universe all at once. Nothing could affect nor trigger me. It was like floating, channeling a christ-like energy, literally felt like I could walk on water if i wanted too, had every power in the universe in my fingertips but didn't use or manipulate even the slightest ability.

The divine peace or glimpse of that level of inlightenment was so profound that anything but "simply being" like an animal or plant would be, was already perfectly enough, and every cell of my being sang ALL IS WELL ! Infinite Love / Divine Brilliance and all the most powerful words and meanings you can think of combined in one eternal implosion, and yet even with all these words, it was simply and totally effortless.

This is just my experience from whatever my mind and memory can put into words, maybe one day it will be clearer again. It haunts me... for everything else pales in comparison, sometimes I wish i never experienced it. Its been about 10 years or so since i died... All substances afterwards gave me a glimpse, but its like eating a sugar coated candy shaped like a fruit than the fruit itself directly from the tree, or better, becoming the tree itself and endlessly producing fruit.

 

 

Beautiful, thank you. Do you have any idea why it did not remain as a permanent baseline state ?

[Ramasta9]

18 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Beautiful, thank you. Do you have any idea why it did not remain as a permanent baseline state ?

I have come to many reasons why but not sure exactly what is the strongest one.

1. The modern environment was unsupportive of that energy. 2. my body was not that healthy and strong to hold that charge longer. 3. I took it for granted and slacked off the spiritual practices, meditation, yoga, chanting, and deeper embodiment. 4. I didn't listen to the call to leave and live in nature full time when i had the clear call to do so. 5. I was still attached to somethings (family, girlfriend, modern life, money, career ect.) 

So overtime my mind and ego reintegrated more and more, and old habits re-emerged and gradually more things came up that I wasn't ready to take on fully, and so eventually, in my understanding, if the vessel is not in total alignment, purity and strength, and the correct environment to maintain such a great energy, the energy gradually but eventually leaves, I have tapped in and out of it and still do to this day, with or without substances, but nowhere near that full extent, but just enough to remind me of whats possible and whats still there whenever I am ready to take that leap.

It left a mark on me so deep that it somewhat always subtly guides me back. I feel like deep down I know what I have to do, but I still feel there is unfinished tasks and business in my current life before I have to let it go completely. Still figuring it all out myself.

Thanks for asking  

 

[Wilhelm44]

1 hour ago, Ramasta9 said:

I have come to many reasons why but not sure exactly what is the strongest one.

1. The modern environment was unsupportive of that energy. 2. my body was not that healthy and strong to hold that charge longer. 3. I took it for granted and slacked off the spiritual practices, meditation, yoga, chanting, and deeper embodiment. 4. I didn't listen to the call to leave and live in nature full time when i had the clear call to do so. 5. I was still attached to somethings (family, girlfriend, modern life, money, career ect.) 

So overtime my mind and ego reintegrated more and more, and old habits re-emerged and gradually more things came up that I wasn't ready to take on fully, and so eventually, in my understanding, if the vessel is not in total alignment, purity and strength, and the correct environment to maintain such a great energy, the energy gradually but eventually leaves, I have tapped in and out of it and still do to this day, with or without substances, but nowhere near that full extent, but just enough to remind me of whats possible and whats still there whenever I am ready to take that leap.

It left a mark on me so deep that it somewhat always subtly guides me back. I feel like deep down I know what I have to do, but I still feel there is unfinished tasks and business in my current life before I have to let it go completely. Still figuring it all out myself.

Thanks for asking  

 

Wow, thanks for sharing 🙂

[Ziran]

"Do you really need guidance for developing spirituality?"

Most need encouragement.  Keep going.  Consistent progress in the wrong direction eventually flips at the extremes.