Hypothesis: You're not really interested in truth. You are simply scared.

[theleelajoker]

All this "I want to understand reality" and "I am soooo interested in truth" and so on...

What's really behind it is the idea of "I want to know how reality works because I want to control reality and avoid certain feelings and situations because I'm scared. Plainly fucking scared.

If I figure out what this is and how it works oh yeah then I'm really great and superior and can stay within my subconscious limits full of social fears, self doubts and scary thoughts of being rejected and feeling small and insignificant"

All this "Oh yeah let's contemplate and find out this and that and let's build an epistemic and ontological framework because I really need to know that and this is really important for me and others and the world --> same thing. Scared.

What about let's go out, let go and let's do stuff? Let's experiment and experience instead of discussing and explaining and looking for "theories of everything" etc.

Let's discuss the hypothesis I'm curious about opinions.

Edited 21 hours ago by theleelajoker

[Bluevinn]

Great one!

[Judy2]

i agree:) that's why i sometimes feel like it's a bit off when Leo discusses his obsession with Truth as completely devoid of human impurities or biases.

if you think about it, though, this is kind of similar to how a great surgeon may have been inspired by childhood trauma (like losing a loved one) in their career - which doesn't negate their achievements, though. it just means that from the human perspective, we could always argue that there are psychological "impurities" motivating the pursuit of great things/ awakening. there simply has to be some kind of "story" from inside the dream to explain the journey of a "person" (or at least as humans we like to think that way). the awakening can be pure and legit anyway, though. at least that's the best explanation i could come up with for now.

other than that, i think this issue basically boils down to Self-Deception 101. why do people ask intellectual questions like "is there a multiverse? (i want there to be a multiverse)" or "is solipsism true?" in this sub-forum? cause they want quick confirmation of the "truth" of something so that the scary story they told themselves about said thing can quickly be dismissed....then they move on to the next thing to be scared of, and on and on. i'd say it's a subtle fear for most people, but it can be a very obvious lived experience to others.

Edited 21 hours ago by Judy2

[Judy2]

19 minutes ago, Bluevinn said:

Great one!

lol i just saw your "i want solipsism to be true" post:) *friendly nudge

 

"I need solipsism to be true."

who does?

why?

Edited 21 hours ago by Judy2

[theleelajoker]

@Judy2  thx for adding some content to the discussion!

I agree about that achievements, and that they are not less because of that or this motivation.  Also agree that there has to be some story that provide coherence and interest to a person's journey.

What I see critical is this: 1) presenting a story of "you need should do XYZ" or "look how I do XYZ and how great and important it is" and 2) judging people by commenting on their progress or failure ("good work, good job, but that's only the beginning etc") but  3) not providing the real personal motive. 

It creates an inauthentic vibe and will potentially lead to bypassing the real fears in favor of putting up a show. And worse, it might incentivize others to do the same.

 

[Xonas Pitfall]

Yes!

Although, to play devil's advocate a little. . . , I would definitely say there is some aspect of us that has a more genuine insatiable curiosity (if you are the type of person who values it) to see more in depth, to understand “the actual source of things” and how they came to be. 

A good example would be someone who could easily remain religious because it provides community, guidance, love, a pre-given sense of meaning, and a feeling of control or context in the world, yet still chooses to question and deconstruct further. Similarly, someone might have the option to pursue a career focused on accumulating the most power or money but instead chooses a path that feels more authentic to who they are.

Of course, you could argue that both choices are still driven by a desire for control or happiness. In an absolute sense, they fall into the same category. The place where you feel the safest and most grounded is often the place where you feel most authentically seen, loved, and aligned with your own truth. Ideally, it is also the place that supports your survival without requiring you to compromise your authenticity. In that sense, seeking that alignment is the best option from a survival standpoint, from a sense-of-control standpoint, and from a more spiritual truth perspective as well.

-

But I definitely agree with the OP: there are many traps people can fall into when they repeatedly claim to be aligned with the truth or its source. A lot of the time, both from a more “tough love” and “spiritual” perspective, people sometimes use the label of “I am just being truthful” to push their own bias and agenda, or even to be harmful.

One thing I also noticed Leo doing in his posts is using “truth” to promote or call things ugly that he personally does not feel drawn to or like. Even though he might say, “Oh well, this is all relative,” it is interesting what he calls out and what he does not call out, or what he says is aligned or not aligned with truth.

I feel like this is one of many traps someone can fall into once they claim they “know the truth.”

Edited 18 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall

[aurum]

@theleelajoker

That could be the case for some people. But it would be mistake to reduce truth-seeking to just that.

Truth-seeking by definition involves confrontation with reality and facing imaginary fears. And yes, that is possible.

Also, consider that everyone needs truth to be able to navigate reality. To frame this as an inherently pathological need for control is a mistake. It would set a bar for being non-controlling that no one will be able to reach.

[Judy2]

@aurum yes that's also true:)

[Willy Phallicus]

That's probably the case for most but there are systemic anomalies that are not driven by fear or desire. 

[tuku747]

Are you implying the truth isn't interesting?

[theleelajoker]

8 hours ago, tuku747 said:

Are you implying the truth isn't interesting?

No I think many people are - at least partially - bullshitting themselves and others about their motivations

[theleelajoker]

9 hours ago, Willy Phallicus said:

That's probably the case for most but there are systemic anomalies that are not driven by fear or desire. 

How do you know that? What are criteria? How verify?

[theleelajoker]

11 hours ago, aurum said:

@theleelajoker

That could be the case for some people. But it would be mistake to reduce truth-seeking to just that.

Truth-seeking by definition involves confrontation with reality and facing imaginary fears. And yes, that is possible.

Also, consider that everyone needs truth to be able to navigate reality. To frame this as an inherently pathological need for control is a mistake. It would set a bar for being non-controlling that no one will be able to reach.

Interesting point by highlighting the extreme opposite - complete loss of control, non-controlling. 

I believe the problem with truth seeking is that people choose where and how they seek truth and they don't see their own self deception @judy pointed out 

[aurum]

47 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

I believe the problem with truth seeking is that people choose where and how they seek truth and they don't see their own self deception @judy pointed out 

Of course.

But the entire purpose of genuine truth-seeking is to overcome such self-deception.

If the concern is self-deception, then what people need is more truth-seeking, not less.

[bazera]

But you have to start somewhere, right?

People have different degrees of interest in truth seeking, and when you explicate to yourself that truth seeking is something you want to do, the motivations might not be pure initially, but the more you do it, year after year, it gets more clear if you do it right.

I think nobody starts this journey with 100% pure intention, it gets developed over time. Along the way you discover all the shit you hide from yourself, even your egotistical motivations behind truth seeking, and that's part of the path, isn't it?

[James123]

16 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

All this "I want to understand reality" and "I am soooo interested in truth" and so on...

What's really behind it is the idea of "I want to know how reality works because I want to control reality and avoid certain feelings and situations because I'm scared. Plainly fucking scared.

If I figure out what this is and how it works oh yeah then I'm really great and superior and can stay within my subconscious limits full of social fears, self doubts and scary thoughts of being rejected and feeling small and insignificant"

All this "Oh yeah let's contemplate and find out this and that and let's build an epistemic and ontological framework because I really need to know that and this is really important for me and others and the world --> same thing. Scared.

What about let's go out, let go and let's do stuff? Let's experiment and experience instead of discussing and explaining and looking for "theories of everything" etc.

Let's discuss the hypothesis I'm curious about opinions.

Everyone is interested but no one ones to surrender/die, including any experience.

And Truth lies there.

[theleelajoker]

30 minutes ago, bazera said:

But you have to start somewhere, right?

People have different degrees of interest in truth seeking, and when you explicate to yourself that truth seeking is something you want to do, the motivations might not be pure initially, but the more you do it, year after year, it gets more clear if you do it right.

I think nobody starts this journey with 100% pure intention, it gets developed over time. Along the way you discover all the shit you hide from yourself, even your egotistical motivations behind truth seeking, and that's part of the path, isn't it?

Nice. Well said IMO

 

[Breakingthewall]

I would say that the initial motivation is almost always: my life is largely suffering, and I also see that I'm going to die in the future, and this is something very strange that I can't even consider real.

One day you read a book and some things resonate with you; besides, these spiritual people tell you that the end of suffering is near, and that death can be transcendended. It sounds interesting enough to try to understand to what extent there's any truth in all of it.

Then, the mind is twisted and the traps of the ego are difficult to avoid; only instinct will make you see them.