TRIGGER WARNING, Uncomfortable experience about Dating

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Joshe said:

Of course, but I was zooming in on women. 

The topic makes me wonder if technology / social is retarding maturity.

[Joshe]

Another factor is her perception of the guy's status and achievement in society. A man with material wealth and/or who is desired by many women doesn't have to work as hard to keep girls from cheating. Johnny Depp's girlfriend will swallow a lot more neglect and mistreatment than she would from a normal guy.

Edited 13 hours ago by Joshe

[Joshe]

15 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The topic makes me wonder if technology / social is retarding maturity.

And/or maybe just making it more visible? Increased awareness/knowledge of the opposite sex has came online. 20yr old males these days have a ton of knowledge they can access. We didn't really have that growing up. If we did, I think we'd have been just as immature with it. When you get cheated on these days, you can easily find half-truth content that makes you feel better at the expense of the whole truth. This wasn't available in such abundance when I was coming up.

I'm not sure if it leads to more or less immaturity after the dust settles. It would be different for everybody. I think more conscious individuals will eventually see their errors, as is typically the case with more conscious people, and less conscious people will continue to ignore their errors, same as always. 

It just seems like humanity on the whole is going through necessary adolescent challenges and eventually will grow out of it. Maybe in several hundred years or something. 

Edited 16 hours ago by Joshe

[Miguel1]

6 minutes ago, Joshe said:

and less conscious people will continue to ignore their errors, same as always.

Aka, majority of people 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

20yr old males these days have a ton of knowledge they can access.

The whole topic is sort of fascinating to look at in depth.

The above caught me.

I think knowledge =/= wisdom. And it is very, very easy for us to conflate the two when we are young. We are full of 'knowing' before we mature and realise we were... full of shit. So to speak  A similar conflation often arises with pleasure being conflated with happiness.

I think the flood of information is empowering, no doubt. Experience is the greater teacher. It is rare someone can actually have the self control to avoid making mistakes and heed advice; most of us need to fuck up and find out.

For these reasons I suspect there could be the delusion of youth operating as a factor in there. Possibly, also, too much information, too soon. Sort of like trying to teach a student algebra when they do not know simple BODMAS or basic rules; that person is going to dislike maths and walk away with a negative experience due to the struggle. Paralyzed by algebra and unable to proceed in their schooling. This could be a metaphor for information saturation and inundation people endure. I digress a bit.

I sound very disparaging of younger people - I do not wish to convey judgement with the above passage. My comments are more a statement of my own experience, stupidity, hubris and pure ignorance I had to work through. All needed. All warranted. But I was a MESS. 

A stupid arrogant little girl.

[Joshe]

@Natasha Tori Maru I agree.

I like to think of it terms of evolution. There's been an explosion of complexity and humanity is still sorting it out. The collective sees more mistakes being called out every day, and they recognize themselves in some of them. Sure, they usually reject that they're making the mistakes, but that rejection comes with cognitive dissonance (pressure).

The experiment has just begun. Psychological and philosophical concepts are spreading like wildfire in memes, videos, Twitter arguments, etc. For example, 20 years ago, almost no one even heard of "FOMO", but it's a common psychological concept these days. People are absorbing all sorts of relatively sophisticated ideas without even realizing it. This is all totally new and a generation hasn't even passed. 

Even the term "cognitive dissonance" was obscure academic jargon just 15-20 years ago. These days, even Marjorie Talyor Greene (the most whacked out buffoon lunatic in US politics) knows about it. This is just one example of hundreds or thousands of relatively sophisticated ideas that are becoming ambient in the collective consciousness.

This makes me optimistic that humanity will find its way, and I think technology in its current form is a catalyst - a painful one. Growth usually is painful and messy. I feel like humanity is in its adolescent phase without any parents around and it's just going to have to find its way. lol Whether it self-destructs or not is to be seen, but I'm optimistic. 

I think the collective is slowly developing antibodies to its own bullshit.

Edited 12 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe 100%

Quote

Growth usually is painful and messy. 

And this is really prescient - maybe we are much to quick to slap labels on what could be perceived as 'natural inherent behaviour' of a given sex. When in actual fact, it is simply growing pains; an artificial reaction to an unknown, changing environment that has nothing to do with inherent nature, and everything to do with circumstance. Harkening right back to the old nature vs nurture.

It is a powerful message to not make any grand claims attributing behaviour to sex.

[Joshe]

25 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Joshe 100%

And this is really prescient - maybe we are much to quick to slap labels on what could be perceived as 'natural inherent behaviour' of a given sex. When in actual fact, it is simply growing pains; an artificial reaction to an unknown, changing environment that has nothing to do with inherent nature, and everything to do with circumstance. Harkening right back to the old nature vs nurture.

It is a powerful message to not make any grand claims attributing behaviour to sex.

Yes, though patterns still exist. The problem is in misattributing them or having an incomplete view, which is part of the growth process - fleshing out the view. I'm betting OP's view has changed a bit by starting this thread. We all have to start somewhere. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Joshe

[ExploringReality]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Then you are in trouble.

For fucks sake. 

Reasonably both parties can meet each other halfway and fulfill each other's needs in a very healthy way, but if one person is self-actualizing, learning and doing personal development, studying non-violent communication, spiral Dynamics, and other developmental models and also very empathetic and trying to see things from the other person's perspective, understanding double standards and biases etc but the other person is a covert vulnerable passive aggressive narcissist and has borderline personality disorder traits and you guys have kids together, that's a wild ride for sure.

Radical acceptance that the other will not change, not taking anything personally and being stable within having a very firm solid sense of self and reality, getting all your ducks in a row and not feeding into their emotional dysregulation. It just sucks that we're not taught in schools growing up about mental disorders and narcissism, and ego development because it's hard to assess someone in the early stages of a relationship because everyone puts on this facade and this performance, some of them put on this performance to hide this very fractured fragile and distorted ego. I know we all have wants and needs but if someone has some personality disorder, ego distortions and retardation especially with emotional regulation then it's like feeding a vacuum and every time you don't perform, you're accused of not loving them and not being appreciative and they project everything on to you. It's important to not defend yourself and to not get triggered by their projections when you don't feel their needs. 

They idolize you, devalue you, and then they discard you

Edited 12 hours ago by ExploringReality

[Natasha Tori Maru]

50 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

It just sucks that we're not taught in schools growing up about mental disorders and narcissism, and ego development because it's hard to assess someone in the early stages of a relationship because everyone puts on this facade and this performance, some of them put on this performance to hide this very fractured fragile and distorted ego. I know we all have wants and needs but if someone has some personality disorder, ego distortions and retardation especially with emotional regulation then it's like feeding a vacuum and every time you don't perform, you're accused of not loving them and not being appreciative and they project everything on to you. It's important to not defend yourself and to not get triggered by their projections when you don't feel their needs. 

I think the above is why we have trained medical professionals in mental health - so sufferers do not end up in scenarios where their pathology runs amok, hurting those around them. And themselves. There is a massive gap in the medical field for treatment & help. Issues with non-compliance and even simply the fact that mental issues are nebulous and incorporeal in nature contribute to stigma. We can try, personally, to help, as much as we are able. But at the end of the day, it is okay to admit these issues are way beyond our scope of ability to deal with. Even if we are educated well. Knowledge may help us to collectively steer these individuals to receive help sooner - which is where your point regarding education early on dovetails.

You sound like you have been intimately involved with someone with a cluster B type pathology. I do not mean necessarily romantic either.

The only option is you for to know yourself, be so connected with your needs, that you understand what you can tolerate within intimate relationships. Many people choose to not associate with pathological sufferers on principal. Hard boundaries.

I grew up with someone very close to me who suffered from cluster B borderline personality disorder. This:

50 minutes ago, ExploringReality said:

They idolize you, devalue you, and then they discard you

is the cycle. Repeated. Their internal experience is just as terrible for them, as it is for those around them; you end up as collateral damage.

It is very, very difficult to deal with. And it operates as a second layer to the 'self'. Like a double cataract / lens overlay. Obscuring reality, AND the small self. Well, this is how I conceive of it. Because it isn't the person, it is a pathology confusing the matrix of the base personality. I think I frame it this way to be able to remain in a position of compassion toward suffers.

I had to do a lot of healing after the damage close association with BPD caused me. I could not maintain my own sense of self under that sort of pressure.

Hugz 

Edited 11 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[VioleGrace]

On 28/01/2026 at 11:27 PM, AION said:

what the research says? This has nothing to do with red pill

These type of research don't exist, come on bro, i am sure that you are well aware that no scientist can't put relationship in a bottle and saying it is biology.

Yes it is red pill extrapolation.

Hypergamy exist yes but that is not working like this, the description you seems to make of it is a red pill conformity it is neither healthy and even less true, go hang out and create profound relationship with more women and you will see it.
 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, ExploringReality said:

but if one person is self-actualizing, learning and doing personal development, studying non-violent communication, spiral Dynamics, and other developmental models and also very empathetic and trying to see things from the other person's perspective, understanding double standards and biases etc but the other person is a covert vulnerable passive aggressive narcissist and has borderline personality disorder traits and you guys have kids together

That is a guaranteed disaster.

There cannot be a relationship when values are so misaligned.

Your girl needs to be on your wavelength. If you are into self-actualization, you can't marry someone who isn't, regardless of how nice or sexy she is. Your core values need to align, otherwise it will not last.

You need to screen women on values before you fall for them.

Edited 9 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Raze]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is a guaranteed disaster.

There cannot be a relationship when values are so misaligned.

Your girl needs to be on your wavelength. If you are into self-actualization, you can't marry someone who isn't, regardless of how nice or sexy she is. Your core values need to align, otherwise it will not last.

You need to screen women on values before you fall for them.

Why? Many philosophers and sages throughout history married average house wives who probably didn’t know or care about their studies or teachings. Socrates wasn’t married to a genius philosopher woman. 

Edited 9 hours ago by Raze

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

Why? Many philosophers and sages throughout history married average house wives who probably didn’t know or care about their studies or teachings. Socrates wasn’t married to a genius philosopher woman. 

Probably because historically marriage was about survival?

What is valued in relationship and marriage has changed a lot.

[theleelajoker]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That is a guaranteed disaster.

There cannot be a relationship when values are so misaligned.

Your girl needs to be on your wavelength. If you are into self-actualization, you can't marry someone who isn't, regardless of how nice or sexy she is. Your core values need to align, otherwise it will not last.

You need to screen women on values before you fall for them.

+1 from own experience.

Of course, there can (and should) be  SOME variation, so that you can complement each other. But there has to be a core alignment, otherwise soon a gap starts to grow and it's only getting worse over time. 

I had girlfriends I liked for a a variety of reasons, we had common goals and hobbies. But there was no alignment re how much they valued personal growth, self development, or just re general perspective on reality itself.

I talked myself into "oh it's good she's different here she's gonna be a good distraction for me".

Guess how that turned out

Edited 7 hours ago by theleelajoker

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Raze said:

Socrates wasn’t married to a genius philosopher woman. 

I didn't say she needs to be a genius philosopher. Just aligned in values.

You have no idea how toxic Socrates marriage might have been. You are just assuming it was good.

Edited 5 hours ago by Leo Gura

[AION]

Socrates became a philosopher because he had a bad wife

"By all means, marry. If you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher".

[nerdspeak]

Athenian aristocrats didn’t meet their emotional or intellectual or even sexual needs through their wives. 

You don’t have to either. But given the expectations around monogamous relationships now, it’s really a big drag if your partner doesn’t meet these needs to a certain degree. I’m allergic to therapy-speak now but Esther Perel has written a bit about this. 

In my own case, I have very niche interests and spent years trying to date normies because I was optimizing only for looks and doing pickup and apps before the filters now available. It doesn’t work, and now I only date people in my professional area. This brings up some ethical issues sometimes but luckily Europe is more chill about this than North America. 

Funnily enough, I don’t have to trade down on looks. You’d think I might have to, but by nicheing down and being very specific, I get better “results” than from the wide-funnel approach I used in my 20s. And the relationships that come out of it are usually more durable and satisfying. 

When these relationships end, it’s not because someone gets drunk and cheats or because she found a hotter richer guy lol. Usually there’s a recurrent incompatibility that we discuss over months until it becomes apparent that we can’t resolve it. Usually there’s a recurrent incompatibility that we discuss over months. Cheating is often caused by not knowing how to discuss or address these issues; people try to hide the problem for too long and then act out.

Edited 3 hours ago by nerdspeak
Concision