P. Ralston on unnecessary suffering - avoidance?

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Indeed when life is filtered through continuity, comparison, and identity, tension becomes something personal. The Instagram example illustrates this well: the nervous system isn’t just responding to the moment, but to what the moment is taken to say about the self. Remove that interpretive lens and the energy remains, but the suffering now collapses.

That would imply there are two categories of life: that of the cell, or the animal, which is real, and its suffering is legitimate, necessary for survival; and the mental category, which is unreal, and its suffering is a kind of system error, an unnecessary loop that must be deactivated.

But reality is not like that. The mind is a living being, exactly like the cell, only on another plane, in another phase. The mind arises as an interface that interconnects separate organisms through symbolism, and it is a stable, self-preserving energetic structure, just like a cell.

Mental suffering is activated by symbolism, but symbolism is as real as the fire that burns you. When the emperor makes the symbol: thumbs-down , the gladiator says, "Fuck me." And his system releases an energetic discharge that is perceived as suffering, just as a rat's system releases an energetic discharge that is perceived as suffering if you burn it with a flame.

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Yes this is the portion you are unable to reconcile. 

See here, for a good breakdown:

And also Peter Ralston's book 'Ending Unnecessary Suffering'. 

Genuinely. I know you hate him, but you need to get past personal feelings for him and just look at the work seperate from who generated it. Look at the work for the truth that resides there. 

If you will not, then that is a loss indeed. And I do not mean to attack here - but you are essentially strawmanning Ralston. Continually. Your statements betray your ignorance to the process and possibilities. 

Up to you if you want the truth.

I ask you not to Ralston, and I said that it's possible to finish with that suffering, but the question is how 

 So, how would you dissolve it?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I ask you not to Ralston, and I said that it's possible to finish with that suffering, but the question is how 

 So, how would you dissolve it?

Through the process Ralston outlines. My answer is Ralston's answer. I take no credit ☺️

Read the post linked.  

That would be my outline.

If you like, I can cut paste it and post it again here, but I wish to credit Ralston and the user. I've used Ralston's book and process to understand what I was doing and reduce suffering dramatically.

Edited December 31, 2025 by Natasha Tori Maru

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Through the process Ralston outlines. My answer is Ralston's answer. I take no credit ☺️

Read the post linked.  

That would be my outline.

If you like, I can cut paste it and post it again here, but I wish to credit Ralston and the user. I've used Ralston's book and process to understand what I was doing and reduce suffering dramatically.

I read the post, but it doesn't explain exactly how to stop suffering, he just said that he observed the suffering and how he's creating it, then he stopped creating it. But this implies a let's say , not exact idea of what means "he". 

Again the example of a Nigerian jail and gang rape when I was 9, and more, my mother sold me there to be raped in exchange of a Louis Vuitton bag quite ugly. Tell me , how to stop this rumination. I know how. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

18 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I read the post, but it doesn't explain exactly how to stop suffering, he just said that he observed the suffering and how he's creating it, then he stopped creating it. But this implies a let's say , not exact idea of what means "he". 

Again the example of a Nigerian jail and gang rape when I was 9, and more, my mother sold me there to be raped in exchange of a Louis Vuitton bag quite ugly. Tell me , how to stop this rumination. I know how. 

You need to read Ralston's book then. If you want to understand the process. It has been answered in one form or another all over the forum. Multiple times. 

The fact that you won't means you aren't serious about the topic - you are only serious about disliking Ralston. He did write an entire book on it, so perhaps there is a lot to unpack 

You want to know, right? It will require effort from you.

I do speak from experience. And the trauma / suffering I experienced was from an incident as bad as your example. 

I wonder why some people can walk away from incidents like that with suffering and trauma, and some people do not? I wonder what one person is doing, and one is not? I wonder what is going on internally? 

Contemplation questions that might assist.

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

That would imply there are two categories of life: that of the cell, or the animal, which is real, and its suffering is legitimate, necessary for survival; and the mental category, which is unreal, and its suffering is a kind of system error, an unnecessary loop that must be deactivated.

But reality is not like that. The mind is a living being, exactly like the cell, only on another plane, in another phase. The mind arises as an interface that interconnects separate organisms through symbolism, and it is a stable, self-preserving energetic structure, just like a cell.

Mental suffering is activated by symbolism, but symbolism is as real as the fire that burns you. When the emperor makes the symbol: thumbs-down , the gladiator says, "Fuck me." And his system releases an energetic discharge that is perceived as suffering, just as a rat's system releases an energetic discharge that is perceived as suffering if you burn it with a flame.

I don’t think the issue is whether mental suffering is real, because clearly it is. Symbolic stimuli can trigger the same physiological cascades as physical ones. The nervous system doesn’t distinguish between fire and meaning. The key difference isn’t reality, but duration and reuse.

A cell or animal responds to threat, discharges energy, and then returns to baseline once the stimulus ends. The human mind by contrast adds something new: it stores meaning and reapplies it across time. That doesn’t make mental suffering unreal but it does make it persistent.

So the distinction is not biological vs imaginary suffering. Rather it is situational suffering versus self-reinforcing suffering. Both are real; one completes naturally, and the other loops and loops.

Your gladiator example is a perfect case in point. The immediate physiological shock is unavoidable. What magnifies and prolongs the suffering is what the symbol is taken to mean beyond the moment namely annihilation, finality, identity-ending. That layer is by no means intrinsic to the thumbs-down; it’s interpretive, and therefore correctable.

This doesn’t imply the mind is an evolutionary error. Instead it introduces a new capacity: continuity of meaning. That capacity enables culture and coordination, and also enables suffering to outlive its cause.

And thus easing suffering isn’t about denying biology, symbolism, or mind. It’s about loosening the insistence that a symbol must keep meaning what it always meant before. When that insistence relaxes, the same energetic system functions as before, but without turning every signal into an existential verdict.

Mental suffering isn’t fake. It’s just the only form of suffering that can be allowed to finish.

Anyway that's it for me and I bid you Happy New Year brother. I appreciate our occasional joustings this year.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, gettoefl said:

And thus easing suffering isn’t about denying biology, symbolism, or mind. It’s about loosening the insistence that a symbol must keep meaning what it always meant before. When that insistence relaxes, the same energetic system functions as before, but without turning every signal into an existential verdict.

Mental suffering isn’t fake. It’s just the only form of suffering that can be allowed to finish.

Mental suffering is far more persistent because it points to a much more elaborate action. The fire burns, the rat flees. You were gang-raped, you ruminate for years, you suffer, then perhaps you dedicate your life to helping rape victims, or perhaps you orchestrate an elaborate revenge by hiring Russian mercenaries, or perhaps you undergo a phase shift and stop seeing the aggression as personal, beginning to see reality as intertwined emergent movements that dance with each other, and rape is like roses in summer.

The mind is a hyper-complex organism that creates persistent energetic structures that give rise to prolonged and profound actions.

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

do speak from experience. And the trauma / suffering I experienced was from an incident as bad as your example. 

Sorry to know, I also have a couple of things that make me suffer and desire don't existing, family things. That led me to look for a way out

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The fact that you won't means you aren't serious about the topic - you are only serious about disliking Ralston.

Well, I wrote like 20 post about the topic in this thread and I mentioned Ralston once if I remember well, and I wrote those post as deep as I can

Edited 4 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Sorry to know, I also have a couple of things that make me suffer and desire don't existing, family things. That led me to look for a way out

Thats okay, all history now - and I have sorrow for your hardships also 🤍🙏

Suffice it to say, maybe there is truth in what Ralston says - but it is for each of us to find out on our own. 

I also understand that the manner of delivery is important with teachers. Disliking a teacher (for how it is conveyed) can make it harder to even want to try to understand their message. 

I dislike Sadhguru as a teacher. I think he has some great truthful teachings. But he is not for me.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[cetus]

29 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I dislike Sadhguru as a teacher. I think he has some great truthful teachings. But he is not for me.

 

He came to a city near me a few years back and I remember tickets being quite pricy. Around $150.00 USD to listen to a spiritual comedian. Gotta love that chuckle after he makes a funny.

Edited 3 hours ago by cetus

[Miguel1]

When I was in my early twenties, I loved listening to Sadhguru. Nowadays I cant stand him, nor most spiritual teachers.

Honestly nowadays my own mind, and my own silence are so much more enjoyable and interesting.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

5 minutes ago, cetus said:

He came to a city near me a few years back and I remember tickets being quite pricy. Around $150.00 USD to listen to a spiritual comedian.

Spiritual comedian fucken slayed me lol! He does come across that way. I would hope that ticket price went toward something justified.

3 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

When I was in my early twenties, I loved listening to Sadhguru. Nowadays I cant stand him, nor most spiritual teachers.

Honestly nowadays my own mind, and my own silence are so much more enjoyable and interesting.

I have listened to him on and off, but never really enjoyed his stuff or looked to him as a teacher or guru.

And I resonate with 'my own silence/mind' being more enjoyable. I used to seek out a lot more in general. But it feels like I am not searching anymore. Or something. But there was a pivot in my spiritual process that caused everything to turn completely inward. I cannot quite put my words to it properly  But it feels nice!

[cetus]

@Miguel1 I cut my teeth on Alan Watts in my 20's and later on Adashanti 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Alan Watts was big for me also

 

[cetus]

2 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Spiritual comedian fucken slayed me lol! He does come across that way. I would hope that ticket price went toward something justified.

I forgot exactly where it was, but it was a big venue. I wonder what the attendance was like. Spent nearly a fortune on advertising for it.

[cetus]

16 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But it feels like I am not searching anymore. Or something. But there was a pivot in my spiritual process that caused everything to turn completely inward. I cannot quite put my words to it properly  But it feels nice!

Same here. I'm no longer searching. If something new comes my way, I'll gladly accept it. But these days I'm more like a frog just sitting on a lily pad basking in the warm glow of the sun. And if a fly happens to cross my path.... Gulp!

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, cetus said:

Same here. I'm no longer searching. If something new comes my way, I'll gladly accept it. But these days I'm more like a frog just sitting on a lily pad basking in the warm glow of the sun. And if a fly happens to cross my path.... Gulp!

Such a smile on my face as I read this

Shit isn't perfect for me at all, but it is no matter.

A calm place 

[cetus]

@Natasha Tori Maru Same  to you. Happy New year! Two more hours to go here.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Just now, cetus said:

@Natasha Tori Maru Same  to you. Happy New year! Two more hours to go here.

2pm 1/1/26 here - well into it

Happy New Year! Lets see where this journey takes us!

[cetus]

@Natasha Tori Maru

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Lets see where this journey takes us!

You'll know before I do since you're living in the future.