I'm still not fully accepting this "hard work" and effort thing

[Miguel1]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think the most important takeaway from your OP is that working at a passion doesn't feel like work. It is about perception. Toiling at something we hate stretches time out into agony. Injecting yourself full force into passion feels like no effort at all. This is what it is like for me when I am painting; time stops. But my GOD is there a lot of work and effort involved in art. It is just, I do not perceive it that way. Not like how I perceive my construction job to be work, regardless of how much I have mastered it.

Lots of beautiful insights here on this thread.

For me, freestyle dancing is that passion where time disappears. My god I am passionate about that form of art, and can do it for hours every day even tho it is physically very taxing.

[Joshe]

First and foremost, money buys security, freedom, and optionality. There is intense fear that these things won't come. If that fear is the dominant signal (which I intuit it is), engaging in something one enjoys does nothing but distract from that fear as it accumulates in the background. The pressure mounts and mounts.

Calling them lazy, telling them to suck it up, or telling them to find their passion, does not address the fear!

Nothing else matters as long as the belief that there is no way out persists.

• Fear says "you need security NOW"
• Security requires sustained effort over time
• Sustained effort requires some degree of psychological stability
• Psychological stability is impossible while fear dominates
• So fear prevents the very action that would resolve it

"Find your passion" or "suck it up" does not pick this lock. They only distract, guilt-trip, and shame.

The solution is to remove the blockers preventing one from realizing they can do something about the fear - realizing there is a way out. Once they see there is a way out - a credible pathway with a clear sequence of actions that leads from here to security - only then can they move.

The correct order is: Safety -> Stability -> Passion -> Mastery

Not: Passion -> Grind -> Success -> Safety

lol

Edited 11 hours ago by Joshe

[Miguel1]

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

The correct order is: Safety -> Stability -> Passion -> Mastery

Not: Passion -> Grind -> Success -> Safety

It is not so black and white.

Passion pushes you through very tough times. It gets you to work at 110%.

But depending on your passion, who you are and your background, passion first might not be viable.

It is a case by case type of situation.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Miguel1 I tend more to relate to your words.

@Joshe Do you think attempting to address fear directly is the way though?

In my personal experience, attempting to reduce fear or alleviate it does not work. In fact - modern psychology also tends toward this; trying to eliminate fear tends to make it chronic. In fact CBD doesn't 'make anxiety go away,' but tests the belief that fear means danger. You expose yourself with fear present. 

I have never been able to reduce my fear by attempting to address it directly; I have simply had the courage to act anyway, regardless of the fear.

Security never relaxed my fear - for myself - it has been ever-present in one form or another. And simply arises and manifests according to the domains to which I may have some doubt. I allow the fear. I acknowledge it. I breathe in and JUMP, regardless.

Quote

Psychological stability is impossible while fear dominates

I challenge this. You can be psychologically stable with profound fear present. You just require courage to act in the face of that fear by radically allowing it. And courage is about permission. Not force. And deep trust.

If the above were true - I would have been unable to act to save one of my close family members when faced with grave danger. I was 'psychologically stable' in that I was able to act with conviction and clarity. My grounding did not collapse under pressure. I was filled with fear and still had the courage to act. And assisting in the situation necessitated putting myself in direct danger - increasing fear.

I simply do not think reducing fear is the issue; the real issue is the beliefs unexamined in operation behind the scenes. In the shadows.

Edited 7 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

It is not so black and white.

Passion pushes you through very tough times. It gets you to work at 110%.

But depending on your passion, who you are and your background, passion first might not be viable.

It is a case by case type of situation.

Ah yes, a "nuanced reasonable person". 😝

I was referring to a specific situation where fear has a grip. The order is correct for the vast majority of people. 

Also, you don't use passion. It uses you. It's emergent. You discover it when you pay attention to what you're drawn to. So IDK how you can "use" it to push you through anything. It's not like caffeine. lol

You can't use passion like how you can use inspiration. I think these two are often confused. 

It's like: Safety -> Curiosity/Inspiration -> Repetition -> Competence -> Meaning -> Passion. 

Telling OP to find their passion is like someone who inherited a house telling a renter "just focus on what brings you joy, money isn't everything." Easy to say when shelter isn't consuming your bandwidth.

I made this point elsewhere: No one comes out the gate passionate about Excel spreadsheets or accounting. It's only after they get good at it that they form a passion for it.

Maybe a lot of confusion comes from us using different definitions for passion: 

1. Passion as appetite: strong positive feeling toward something
2. Passion as devotion: compulsive drive toward mastery in a domain

I'm using #2 only. If someone says "I have a passion for travel". They're talking about #1. 

As much as "passion" is a topic around here, I feel like it needs deep contemplation.

Edited 7 hours ago by Joshe

[Joshe]

@Natasha Tori Maru I agree that addressing the fear directly would just be more destabilizing.

I'm thinking OP feels like "My life conditions don’t support long-term stability" and there's chronic background threats, an unstable foundation, and behavioral freeze. My intuition is that the immobilization is fear-driven. 

I'm suggesting they find a credible path forward. They need a visible, workable path that leads from where they are now to some version of security. Once that path is visible, the fear loses its grip and they'll be able to move. 

I can't say what all will go into that, but no amount of inspiration or mental gymnastics or reframing is going to work without addressing the actual real-world problems. OP needs actual answers as to how to move forward.

The questions I initially asked could identify some of the blockers, which could inform a strategy for getting the answers to construct a path. Basically, they need clarity of trajectory that maps cleanly onto reality to unfreeze, is what I'm thinking.

As long as they're stuck in the "I'm lazy or broken" frame, they can't see the structural problem because they're using that to answer the question of "why am I not moving?". If the problem is your character, there's no structure to examine, no blockers to identify, no path to build. The only path available from this frame is "try harder" or wallow in shame, which perpetuates the loop of immobilization. 

Your example of acting despite fear - that works when there's a clear action to take. But what about chronic fear with no obvious action? Which I think is the case here. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

10 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Your example of acting despite fear - that works when there's a clear action to take. But what about chronic fear with no obvious action? Which I think is the case here. 

Yes my example was an acute scenario, I do agree.

I suppose we would need to branch off into acute & chronic fear situations. I am firmly of the opinion any form of chronic fear that is leading to immobilisation and inhibition is a deeper psychological issue that I am unqualified to deal with. This implies that normal operation of the individual is not working - which is one of the criteria that one generally defines for a pathology, and formal diagnosis. I feel chronic fear of this type is not something that can be assisted by myself and requires a trained professional.

But the topic of hard work - it is a perspective/belief issue. And I will always maintain that courage is the quality needed as a driver to push past fear. 

Hard work and labour are a matter of perspective.

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I suppose we would need to branch off into acute & chronic fear situations. I am firmly of the opinion any form of chronic fear that is leading to immobilisation and inhibition is a deeper psychological issue that I am unqualified to deal with. This implies that normal operation of the individual is not working - which is one of the criteria that one generally defines for a pathology, and formal diagnosis. I feel chronic fear of this type is not something that can be assisted by myself and requires a trained professional.

No formal diagnosis needed.

Chronic fear is a normal response to chronically unsafe conditions.

If your situation is unstable and precarious with no safety net and no clear path forward, chronic fear is the correct signal - your nervous system is working as it was designed.

It is "normal operation" to freeze and shutdown when risk is high and every visible move looks unsafe. That's what all organisms do. 😂

I understand this chronic fear we're speaking of because I lived with it for many years. The problem was financial uncertainty - ambient fear was always present. The only way for the fear to lift, aside from actually making the money, was knowing I could solve the problem. Having a workable path to the solution.

But I wasn't immobile because my circumstances were different. I had a bit of runway and I had high self-efficacy. Without those, I likely would have been paralyzed myself. 

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But the topic of hard work - it is a perspective/belief issue. And I will always maintain that courage is the quality needed as a driver to push past fear. 

Courage = fear + belief that I can handle it (self-efficacy).

Without self-efficacy, courage is just desperation.

Not everyone has courage, or can have it without considerable self-development. Some of us get lucky.

Telling someone without self-efficacy to "have courage" is like telling someone without legs to just stand up. 😂 For real. 

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Hard work and labour are a matter of perspective.

I agree to a degree. But perspective adoption doesn't work like plug and play. You have to first have the circumstances to discover them, and just hearing about them or contemplating them isn't enough to plug them in.

The problem with "it's all perspective" is it assumes you can mindset your way through anything. Which is flattering when your structure is already fine because you get to take credit for your ability to rise above. 

"Don't complain about digging this ditch for 10 hours at $12/hr bro, it's all a matter of perspective!"

Perspective is a nice thing to have after you've solved the problem. Not as useful when you're drowning in the chaos.

Edited 4 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe but that is the essence of my point - you need help if your issues are so deep you cannot function. Which is a side point to the OPs question.

Beliefs behind the scenes are the issue. 

Hard work is still needed. 

Even what you propose is the very definition of hard work. 

Your definition of courage is very strange.

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I do not quite grasp the point of your entire argument 'all your advice is bad because there is fear'. 

OP needs tools to build good habits that become reflexes. And that comes from doing. Which arises from courage. Not reducing fear.

Hard work is just the building of habits that lowers the threshold for impulse to act. It becomes so low 'doing stuff' is the default. Then there is less energy needed to do the thing. It is simply a reflex. So hard work seems reduced. 

There's is no thinking needed. Just plain doing. But on this topic you and I disagree entirely. 

Change the belief through experience/doing to unravel the fear and change perspective. That is all. One needs to to self enquiry to work on the mindset/belief and then take action to apply and gain new experiences to reinforce a new set of beliefs. Or, truth.

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

@Natasha Tori Maru My argument is simply: If I'm right that legitimate fear is causing immobilization, before they can act, they need to be able to see a viable path forward that resolves the fear - not by addressing it directly, but by clarity of a safe trajectory. That's my theory. Without that, fear locks up the system and no amount of willpower, courage, or perspective reframing can unblock it. It can be mitigated to some extent with mindset, but it's not guaranteed and mileage varies.

Sometimes, the obstacle is external and real, and treating it as mindset problem is wrong, counter-productive, and even harmful.

24 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Hard work is just the building of habits that lowers the threshold for impulse to act. It becomes so low 'doing stuff' is the default. Then there is less energy needed to do the thing. It is simply a reflex. So hard work seems reduced. 

There's is no thinking needed. Just plain doing.

Yes, that is what it looks like after the engine is running. 

Anyway, good talk! 😁

Edited 3 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

27 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Yes, that is what it looks like after the engine is running. 

This is at the heart of it.

I feel what I propose gets the engine running. But both components are ways to tackle the problem (action, mental work)

Edited 3 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

This is at the heart of it.

I feel what I propose gets the engine running.

I should have mentioned I'm working off an intuitive hypothesis here, which is the beliefs are symptoms of instability, not the root cause of it. 

Lazy people don't buy courses, don't make multiple forum posts, don't keep wrestling with being stuck. Lazy people disengage. OP is doing the opposite. Over-engaging, flailing, trying everything.

The motivation is there. Something else is blocking movement.

The standard frame says effort is available if you choose it. OP's experience contradicts that - they try but it don't work. They have no alternative explanation for the gap, so they think: "I must be defective".

They've diagnosed themselves as lazy because it's the only explanation they can come up with to explain their resistance.  Also, They've been told so many times they're lazy that they believe it. But their actions contradict the label. They're acting like someone who wants out badly but can't find the exit.

This intuition led me to believe they’re stuck due to fear of not knowing how to find a viable way out. If I'm right, It's not a matter of beliefs/mindset so much as it is practical advice and forming a safe trajectory they trust.

Not mentioning this upfront could have caused some confusion, haha. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Joshe