Question for Leo: Metaphysics of Impermanence and “Endless” Dreams

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Kiyo1104 said:

In other words, how does the impossibility of true permanence reconcile with the possibility of imagining a dream-state that feels eternal?

The only thing that's truly permanent is pure Emptiness. Everything else is imagined and not permanent.

Forms are never permanent. You can dream something is eternal but that dream will eventually collapse back into pure Emptiness, which is so permanent and Eternal that you can't even think of it or imagine it because there is no form there.

You can tell yourself that your marriage will last forever but that doesn't mean that it will.

Edited 22 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Hojo]

It all depends can you become aware in the void of nothing. You will hit the void of nothing and do you know that its you? If not you will sit there.

Edited 22 hours ago by Hojo

[Terell Kirby]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Forms are never permanent. You can dream something is eternal but that dream will eventually collapse back into pure Emptiness, which is so permanent and Eternal that you can't even think of it or imagine it because there is no form there.

Emptiness (or Nothingness) is the backdrop of all form. But then again, there is an illusory boundary between the two (form and non form)-two sides of the same coin.

The coin itself is permanent- yet at the same time unidentifiable and can’t be conceptualized or spoken about- making it Eternal.

Recognizing and coming into contact with the coin leaves you speechless, as it should. How do we come in contact with something that can’t be perceived or conceptualized? No answer is satisfactory I’m finding- it’s an entire process of self discovery. Awakening is a pointer to realizing never ending unfoldment of reality & Consciousness 

Edited 22 hours ago by Terell Kirby

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

there is an illusory boundary between the two (form and non form)-two sides of the same coin.

There is no boundary, but all form is still temporary.

The only thing that never changes is Formless Emptiness.

Edited 22 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Terell Kirby]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no boundary, but all form is still temporary.

The only thing that never changes is Formless Emptiness.

Yes- Absolutely speaking, God is Formless Emptiness.

This is separate from relative states of consciousness, in which form and non form are temporary depending on which state precedes the other- this relativity is a feature of Formless Emptiness.

Absolute must include all relative states of form and non form

 

[Hojo]

@Terell KirbyIts not separate its there right now. Relative cant exist without it.

Edited 21 hours ago by Hojo

[Kiyo1104]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The only thing that's truly permanent is pure Emptiness. Everything else is imagined and not permanent.

Forms are never permanent. You can dream something is eternal but that dream will eventually collapse back into pure Emptiness, which is so permanent and Eternal that you can't even think of it or imagine it because there is no form there.

You can tell yourself that your marriage will last forever but that doesn't mean that it will.

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

In other words, experience is reality structured in a certain way. Duality, a self-preserving system that creates a center which registers reality, creating an experience, a becoming to which continuity and meaning are given.

But that is not reality; it is a form of reality. Reality without that center or self is exactly the same as with it, only without registering differences. Opening yourself to what reality is without a center or self is enlightenment. Reality is something, because it is, it is totality. It is not definable; you can be it but not thinking it. You already are it, just remove the veil and that's it.

I see what you mean by that. I had some non-dual insights that point to just that, although bigger awakenings are still ahead of me.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The only thing that's truly permanent is pure Emptiness. Everything else is imagined and not permanent.

Forms are never permanent. You can dream something is eternal but that dream will eventually collapse back into pure Emptiness, which is so permanent and Eternal that you can't even think of it or imagine it because there is no form there.

You can tell yourself that your marriage will last forever but that doesn't mean that it will.

Thanks Leo for clarification! I understand now. 

Hey, was that sad marriage part truly unnecessary? 😭😂 

 

[Arthogaan]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The only thing that never changes is Formless Emptiness.

But if we want to be very precise - would you agree that this is still refying Formless Emptiness into a noun, where in truth it is more like a verb or like a nature of anything that can be dreamt of?

There is only dream-stuff. And nature of it is impermanence, emptiness - but that nature isn't in the background anywhere. There is no "behind the curtains". 

It's like Absolute Mind and it's contents - dream stuff - these are not separate right? It's not really like God/Absolute Mind dreams stuff out of itself, because that would suggest some stable Mind "behind the curtains" - The Mind and the Dreamt Stuff is pointing to the same Formless Empty Nature, they are not separate. Just like in a nightly dream when you become lucid - any Idea that it is happening in your Mind, in some stable background is just another Idea that is not direct experience - there is just dream stuff that morphs into different things and it's nature is Emptiness/Love.

Would you agree with my train of thought?

Edited 18 hours ago by Arthogaan

[gettoefl]

12 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Reality is neither an illusion nor a dream. That would imply a subject with certain characteristics performing an action, dreaming, which is interrupted, and that subject realizes that this reality was false and that their reality upon waking, which is different, is real.

This is impossible. If "God" were to realize that everything was a dream, "realizing" would be another dream. The absolute total is not an entity, not someone who chooses, decides, or acts; it is reality itself, absolute being.

Absolute means without limitation, and without limitation means without attributes or actions. Reality simply is. What appears are manifested possibilities.

 

You are correct that reality itself cannot of course be a dream, because dreaming presupposes a limited subject who drifts into and out of states. What is unlimited does not enter states. Yet within the appearance of a world, one's sense of being a separate self is taken to be unquestionably real, and with it comes one's experience of living in this shifting, unstable realm.

In that seeming realm, “dream” and “illusion” act usefully as provisional tools. They meet the ones who believe they are a body-mind where they think they are and they provide symbolic actionable steps for loosening that belief. As these symbols are recognized for what they are, mere devices reflecting the mind’s unconscious projections, the conditions are thereby set in place through which the veiled depth of reality can dawn.

Yes nothing actually changes in what is real. What changes is only the willingness of a seeming self to let go of the mechanisms that kept reality obscured. When these devices have served their purpose, they can fall away, and what remains is the simple fact of being itself, which of course was never altered.

[Kiyo1104]

@Hojo @gettoefl Thank you both for elaborating further. Great insights.

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Arthogaan said:

But if we want to be very precise - would you agree that this is still refying Formless Emptiness into a noun, where in truth it is more like a verb or like a nature of anything that can be dreamt of?

Noun is the perfect term for Emptiness because it's the closest thing to a substance that is possible.

Forms are verbs, formlessness is a noun.

Of course that's just one way of looking at it.

Quote

There is only dream-stuff. And nature of it is impermanence, emptiness - but that nature isn't in the background anywhere. There is no "behind the curtains". 

But there kind of is. It's not "behind", but Emptiness it the bedrock so to speak.

There is the immanent and then the transcendent, the manifest and the unmanifest.

Don't accuse me of dualism, these are just the limits of language.

Edited 10 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

10 hours ago, gettoefl said:

You are correct that reality itself cannot of course be a dream, because dreaming presupposes a limited subject who drifts into and out of states. What is unlimited does not enter states

Exactly 

10 hours ago, gettoefl said:

that seeming realm, “dream” and “illusion” act usefully as provisional tools. They meet the ones who believe they are a body-mind where they think they are and they provide symbolic actionable steps for loosening that belief. As these symbols are recognized for what they are, mere devices reflecting the mind’s unconscious projections, the conditions are thereby set in place through which the veiled depth of reality can dawn.

Usually are misleading , they imply that reality is not real and that there is another, higher reality that is. It would be more accurate to say forms and formlessness, for example. Form is not false, it's limited. Limited doesn't mean false, means limited. It's not less real than unlimited, it's just limited. Real and unreal are adjectives that categorizes reality, so they are absolutely wrong. Spirituality is absolutely wrong formulated, that's why nobody understands it, because it's impossible to understand.

10 hours ago, gettoefl said:

Yes nothing actually changes in what is real. What changes is only the willingness of a seeming self to let go of the mechanisms that kept reality obscured. When these devices have served their purpose, they can fall away, and what remains is the simple fact of being itself, which of course was never altered.

What changes is the form, the formless can't change. The form and the formless are not two different categories are two aspects of reality.

The formless is essence, form is appearance. Reality always has an appearance or form, since "always" implies time, and time is equivalent to form. Time means delay between changes. Without delay there is no change; a limit on the speed of change is necessary for it to be change. Then "always" change and form are because the the interval between changes is outside of time; it does not exist. Existing is a verb, means happening. Existence is the expression of reality, that is absence of limitations, openess, absolute being 

It's the same as the self and dual consciousness. There is always a self and dual consciousness from the perspective of the self and dual consciousness, since the interval without consciousness is not conscious of itself. The point is to understand that the self is not someone, not a soul or a subject, and conciseness is not something, just a form that the reality takes; it is a consequence of a center that appears when reality reflects upon itself, creating a self-preserved universe that operates within the framework of the primary universe, what we call life.

Reality don't need consciusness, it's not consciusness. Consciousness is a form of the reality that happens when center that register the reality appears. In the unlimited possibilities are infinite centers that register the reality, all are the same, the reality in a form. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Breakingthewall