Only way to Truth, and great conversation with Mellowmarsh

[James123]

  1 hour ago, Mellowmarsh said:

There is no i, no you, no we, no life. Everything is one. The rest is story, beliefs. 

• When this deeply known (actually known is a wrong word, I don't know how to explain) maybe correct word is deeply digested, then there is no question arises "who am I etc...""" or answer arises "I am god etc..".

 

  1 hour ago, Mellowmarsh said:

The belief of God is once removed as the dissolution of illusory relationship.

• Exactly. But not actually removed, but dropped, surrendered.

 

  1 hour ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Without a need to constantly remain attached to ideas and beliefs, the clarity of your formless form recognises the truth of itself - with nothing to confirm or ever deny.

• Exactly. It is You, but it has no name, explanation, birth, death, experience.

 

Anything that we came to this day happens via mind / action. When mind drops, what is there?

• Any attempt to find an answer via book, video, via experience, action etc.. belongs to mind.
• In this universe non of the things that can help to find it. Universe / existence is the matrix. 
• Matrix must be surrendered and entire matrix is based on action.
• Only way is actionless. Not even trying to meditate or trying to reach psychedelics to realize something. 

That's what real meditation is, and with real meditation Ultimate Truth is always there, here, Now.

Best Regards 

[Mellowmarsh]

11 hours ago, James123 said:

That's what real meditation is, and with real meditation Ultimate Truth is always there, here, Now.

Yes, that’s it.
Attunement is the key. 
After all, we’re all the same one awareness behind each of all our projection screens,  serve only as our own personal models of reality, which is just noise and drama, and not our true being.

 

All the one love action dreaming difference where there is none. ❤️

[Breakingthewall]

16 hours ago, James123 said:

• Any attempt to find an answer via book, video, via experience, action etc.. belongs to mind.
• In this universe non of the things that can help to find it. Universe / existence is the matrix. 

The thing is that the mind and the matrix is the absolute. Everything that appears is that. The mind is extremely difficult to align, but it's possible. 

Reality always manifests itself, and now it is manifesting as your mind. That mind originates from structures focused on survival and reproduction, which in human beings unfold in countless nuances.

That mind is the structure of the universe in a hyper-complex form that has the potential to perceive its absolute nature. No mind is impossible now because you are now a mind. You may believe your mind is silent, but it is operating, comparing, evaluating, at subconscious levels. The slightest deception, such as assuming the mind is "something else," closes the door. It's very subtle.

The mind is what perceives the absolute. Without a mind, you are unaware of anything, in fact you are a mind now. The mind is "knowing" in the sense of perceiving, of being conscious. Without a mind, you are not conscious. Then the mind is the eye of the absolute perceiving itself, so deny de mind is a door that closes.

The mind is what creates time and separation, then consciousness arises. No time and no separation is impossible being a mind but transparent time and separation is possible.

The mind has to operate without center and without contraction. The problem is that the emotional sistem is contraction that creates a center so a movement is needed, a very deep change that reformulate all the emotional structure, and the only way to do that is achieving moments of total openness. Day by day, month after month, the mind restructure itself until it's transparent, not contracted, then it's a mirror of the absolute 

Edited 23 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[VeganAwake]

The sense of self/illusion/ego is very stubborn and sneaky. It's illusory survival tactic will even attempt to identify as nothing or the unnamable or as everything/infinity/god or whatever............this is a super common phenomenon when there is a spirituality background...... I have heard it referred to as Spiritual Ego.

It doesn't want to die, it simply cant recognize its own unreality. It attempts to survive in every way possible......trust!

Recognition doesn't require a witness or an owner. Thats the shocker!

There isn't a true self or higher self or unnamed self or true nature self or infinite self or invisible self or dualistic self or relative self

All selves are an illusion attempting to remain intact.........it's just an identification preservation tactic of something that's already not there!

This phenomenon is either clearly recognized, or it isn't. 

Even the slightest sliver of self identification is being completely asleep.

Enlightenment is when it is absolutely clear that this self illusion was never there from the start. It was always unreal. 

It's not a denial or bypass or brainwashing or disattchment process.

Either it's clearly seen to have never been or it is not.......end of story!

💞

[Someone here]

@VeganAwake what a load of nonsense man 😂. 

Existence doesn't exist ? 

Please notice this ..nothing can be called an illusion 100%. It has to be both illusion and reality .if its illusory 100% then how does it exist at all even as an illusion ?

 

[Breakingthewall]

57 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Enlightenment is when it is absolutely clear that this self illusion was never there from the start. It was always unreal. 

Perhaps you're the one who doesn't understand what the self is. It's real, as a self, just as the body is real. The self creates experience by dividing reality into sections in order to operate; it's an energetic software.

If you transcend the self, you realize that reality is total, without divisions, absolute. But the one who realizes this is the self, which recognizes itself as a construction that is occurring. It's not unreal; the idea of "unreal" comes from the self trying to divide things into real and unreal. Nothing is unreal; reality is

[zazen]

@Breakingthewall Agreed. I think many spiritualists make that error - to deny this reality for the Ultimate reality. It’s the opposite mistake materialists make. Maya doesn’t mean the world doesn’t exist but that it isn’t as it appears on the surface.

But veganawake has a point when people identify as the total or as God. It’s tricky and subtle - we are of God, in God - but not God in totality, only as a locality.

The finite can’t claim to be the infinite - only from the infinite. Literalist religions deny that we even come out the infinite or God and that we are “thrown” into the world from elsewhere, by God. But their notions of blasphemy also have a point at protecting the half truth that is of keeping the transcendent - transcendent and total.

We can’t be transcendent, or even transcend anything - because that means no more form or manifestation. We can only transform within the form we already exist in - by awareness of and orientation towards the transcendent.

This way we keep a healthy balance between the transcendence and immanence. Absolute-infinite conciousness-ground of being or simply God, is transcendent (total) and also immanent (local, intimate, permeating all manifestation in essence). Jewish Kabbala and Islam both contain concepts regarding this. GOATED metaphysics.

The wave isn’t the ocean but is oceanic - we aren’t God but are godly. The Quran states “God encompasses all” to which Ibn Arabi adds “nothing encompasses Him”.

The total becomes local, the infinite contains the possibility of the finite, and from the eternal arises the temporal.

I also think the term dual and non-dual get slippery. Because once we say non-dual - its opposite must exist. I think differentiation is a better term - One reality (whatever we wanna call it - Absolute, infinite conciousness, God, Ground of Being etc) differentiating and localising itself. No question of duality even existing in that sense, only as a relative phenomenon. God is the only reality - we are just the localised point of God.

 

Edited 15 hours ago by zazen

[Ramasta9]

Don't forget to take a cookie

[Breakingthewall]

@zazen 

You are not a drop in the ocean

You are the ocean in a drop 

Rumi

Or if you prefer:

Ana al haqq. I am the truth. 

Al Hallaj. The purest mystic, the one who's direct as an arrow, the one who's open to the absolute and is one with it. 

Ana al haqq , let's analize

"I". Who? No one? No, I, that is, that exists :"Sat"

"Am". That stands out, that appears, that knows itself: "Chit"

"The truth". the totality, the openness, the absolute without edges, center or bottom. The absolute freedom, the absolute glory: "Ananda"

 

[James123]

23 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The truth". the totality, the openness, the absolute without edges, center or bottom. The absolute freedom, the absolute glory: "Ananda"

 

Don't forget, being totally open is to dropping all knowledge, beliefs, experiences about the Self, which is above.

That's only way to Be. Completely naked, empty (empty of anything and everything, including emptiness).

 

[James123]

7 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The thing is that the mind and the matrix is the absolute. Everything that appears is that. The mind is extremely difficult to align, but it's possible. 

No. İt is not. 

Leg appears as leg, body appears as body. Body feels pain, harmony, joy.

Bird flies, sun arises. 

You are none. 

You are which all beyond. Everything and anything arises and falls within You.

What you say is bs.

Because, if what you say is true, arm and tree are identical. İf it is;

Put the hand on fire and see.

[Breakingthewall]

59 minutes ago, James123 said:

No. İt is not. 

Leg appears as leg, body appears as body. Body feels pain, harmony, joy.

Bird flies, sun arises. 

You are none. 

You are which all beyond. Everything and anything arises and falls within You.

What you say is bs.

Because, if what you say is true, arm and tree are identical. İf it is;

Put the hand on fire and see.

God takes you from one feeling to another and teaches you through opposites, so that you have two wings to fly, not one.

Rumi

 

It means that duality is the expression of the absolute; it is the absolute made form, within form, the totality dances. And the human mind is the dance and the eye that perceives it in all its depth. Don't you want to open that eye? It's your choice.

Edited 15 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[James123]

19 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

God takes you from one feeling to another and teaches you through opposites, so that you have two wings to fly, not one.

This mean is not God is wings.

Wings belongs to God, but not it.

20 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It means that duality is the expression of the absolute; it is the absolute made form, within form, the totality dances. And the human mind is the dance and the eye that perceives it in all its depth. Don't you want to open that eye? It's your choice.

Eye belong to body, not me.

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, James123 said:

Eye belong to body, not me.

Maybe you could break the separation between the body and you 

[James123]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe you could break the separation between the body and you 

Breaking separation belongs to body and mind.

[Breakingthewall]

6 hours ago, zazen said:

The finite can’t claim to be the infinite - only from the infinite. Literalist religions deny that we even come out the infinite or God and that we are “thrown” into the world from elsewhere, by God. But their notions of blasphemy also have a point at protecting the half truth that is of keeping the transcendent - transcendent and total.

When it's said that the finite, or the self, or maya, is an illusion, it means that everything that is divided is divided by the mind in order to operate and orient itself in reality. What reality is is a constantly changing flow without separation, and it is my mind that creates the separations and, in doing so, gives meaning to reality, dividing it into opposites and parts. But the fact is, if my mind divides reality into parts, there are parts. In my mind, but it's the same thing; they exist.

In my opinion its irrelevant, the only thing that matters on a mystical level is opening yourself to the nature of reality, not to its structure.

It's irrelevant whether reality is a single, fragmented flow, whether time is an illusion or real; what matters is perceiving what it is, not how it is. How it is is a mental structure, what is the essence. "How" is exploration, interesting. "What" is opening, essence, the true nature of everything 

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, zazen said:

God is the only reality - we are just the localised point of God.

 

It's very simple in my opinion. What we call God is the ultimate nature of reality. The ultimate nature of the reality is your ultimate nature and the ultimate nature of anything. You can open yourself to that nature, it can be defined as absence of limits, the absolute. Enlightenment means being open always or be able to be open sometimes to that nature, perceive what you are in essence. It's a reality, not an idea. It's what you are. 

Then you realize that there is not a creator, it's a possibility happening, it's inevitability. Anything that appears is made by infinite relationship, infinite cause effect movements that means nothing, just the inevitability of the no limitations, and it's irrelevant, infinite universes interconnected are irrelevant, just possibilities. Are alive, wonderful, full, but the point is the substance, the substance is limitlessness, you are exactly and precisely limitlessness without center, and anything that appears is just something that appears. Then you can expand yourself and be that, you are not anymore psychological, not an energetic structure made of attachment, fear and desire. You are open, no contraction, not attached to the form, your mind is not focused in things or relationship, it's open, without edges or bottom .

[VeganAwake]

12 hours ago, Someone here said:

@VeganAwake what a load of nonsense man 😂. 

Existence doesn't exist ? 

Please notice this ..nothing can be called an illusion 100%. It has to be both illusion and reality .if its illusory 100% then how does it exist at all even as an illusion ?

 

Maybe you're the kind of person that keeps chasing a mirage of a cold Dr Pepper machine through the desert.

Nothing wrong with that 👌 

❤️ 

Edited 7 hours ago by VeganAwake

[Mellowmarsh]

10 hours ago, James123 said:

Breaking separation belongs to body and mind.

Pure clarity right there, here. 🙏

 

 

[zazen]

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

When it's said that the finite, or the self, or maya, is an illusion, it means that everything that is divided is divided by the mind in order to operate and orient itself in reality. What reality is is a constantly changing flow without separation, and it is my mind that creates the separations and, in doing so, gives meaning to reality, dividing it into opposites and parts. But the fact is, if my mind divides reality into parts, there are parts. In my mind, but it's the same thing; they exist.

In my opinion its irrelevant, the only thing that matters on a mystical level is opening yourself to the nature of reality, not to its structure.

It's irrelevant whether reality is a single, fragmented flow, whether time is an illusion or real; what matters is perceiving what it is, not how it is. How it is is a mental structure, what is the essence. "How" is exploration, interesting. "What" is opening, essence, the true nature of everything 

The essence is God, the structure is Gods manifestation. Understanding the structure helps avoid delusions like taking literally “I am god” (as a totality) or that form is just illusion (reductionist). Those are the two traps - either inflation of form or deflation of form. We are identical in essence not in totality. A person (“I”) is local - essence is total. Local and total aren’t opposed as the local IS total - particularized.

It’s more that we are OF God rather than we ARE God as a “I” or identity. We aren’t God as a entity (form) but as a essence (formless) from which all forms arise. There is no separation, but there is distinction. There is nothing but God (ultimate reality) unfolding (manifesting) - we are the distinct, local and particular expression of God, not God in totality.

What we call “I” or “you” are localised vantage points within and of God unfolding. But the vantage point can’t claim to be that which it is pointing to - only that it is not separate from that it points to. The vantage point is made of the Absolute, but doesn’t encompass the Absolute. A vantage point is finite by definition, whilst the Absolute is limitless. But this limitless includes the capacity for self-limitation - because a limitless that couldn’t express as a limit would in fact be limited.

If essence means what something is made of - and totality means all possible expressions of that essence: then we are made of the same essence - but not expressing all of its possibilities or manifestations. Therefore we are absolute only in essence, not in total. Like an ovum in a mother - the ovum arises within the mother and is of the mother - yet still distinct. The ovum is the mother in essence (dna) yet not in total. Same with the wave - the wave can’t claim to be the Ocean but is of it, from it, and within the entirety of its field or ground of being.

—

Opening to truth is important as is understanding it to integrate it. Like the thread on psychedelics - people are conflating or arguing between seeing (being open), understanding (interpretation) and integrating (living truth). All are important. Drugs can reveal, but not elevate or integrate the truth. Some conceptual frameworks can prime you for what you see, just as seeing directly allows for understanding those frameworks better. Living from that truth is always the hardest part.

Thats why though revelation happened in Arabia (of Tawhid - Oneness) civilisation was built in the Levant/Persia where they already had a foundation of philosophy, poetry and a vocabulary to build on what was revealed. The Islamic orientation was filtered through that ecosystem to produce civilization. That’s why after Islam we got Ibn Arabi, Rumi, Hafez etc and Arabia produced little to none of those gems.

Even Hallaj was from that same environment. When he claimed “I am truth” there was no “I” making the claim. It wasn’t as a an ego identifying itself as the total, but more so realizing that there is nothing but the truth (all is God, truth) and that everything arises within it, from it and of its essence. But language is limited and “I” was used as a way to express it.

The Levant inherited Greek logic + roman law, Persia had sophisticated administration and poetry - Baghdad was in the middle which is why it became the epicentre of the Abbasid empire. Hallaj being executed was more political than metaphysical - because the implications of his words (I am Truth) destabilised the political centre of the empire. He brought the truth into the bazaar rather than remaining in the house of wisdom. It’s not like it was foreign - as the house of wisdom contained sufi metaphysics etc. it’s that it was brought into the public square. It threatened power political and religious because it would imply bypassing both - even if it’s a matter of fact.

It’s the same way how we are advised not to jump straight into drugs or psychedelics without some foundation of understanding or preparation - it can lead to crushing us or delusion that threatens stability. Most people aren’t ready or equipped for revelation. Me you or this forum can perhaps understand Hallaj - he was like the DMT of his time lol. But imagine if everyone was exposed to it.

Edited 46 minutes ago by zazen