Is mathematics invented or discovered ?

[Stick]

 

[UnbornTao]

7 hours ago, Human Mint said:

Sadly most of the time when participating in conversations or discussions, the last thing that arrives is truth. It might not be so obvious through a forum but being present in the same room is obviously what happens most of the time, anything but truth. For the simple reason we are so so different, we  have different preferences, motives and needs. Even if we both want to know the same thing one might be in a different state.

Plus, maybe an answer is just intuitive and cannot be spoken... How do you know?? How do you know if I am speaking the truth or I am lying? Not like I want to lie, but being truthful in a conversation is as hard as it gets. Sorry, that's how it is.

You can only know what language is through your own experience. That much should be obvious. And I don't know what kind of communication you resonate with the most, so I could be talking very accurately but for you it is just nonsense. Or I can say nonsense too, that is not wrong, just not helpful.

To me it is about the exchange and the probing themselves. Language exists and is something in its own right, so it is possible to have insight into it. Language is whatever it is, regardless of one's state. And the possibility that it is grasped through one's experience does not mean that we, as selves, are the deciding factor who can simply declare that language is x or y.

As for your second paragraph, yeah, that's mostly what I was trying to allude to with the term insight. I think it is better left open-ended, in the sense that it will be known when each of us personally grasps what it is.

Funnily enough, it could be spoken - using language. That's what language is for. That doesn't mean that what is expressed will be an exact representation, but something will be gotten across.

As hard as it is to actually reproduce, I think pretending or imagining what life was like prior to the existence of language can help open up our inquiry. At the very least, it can be a fun little meditation exercise.

Also, I like to bring up Helen Keller in these conversations. In her lessons, we may be able to appreciate how earth-shattering this whole business can be. Her case might provide a contrast to our already established "language world." 

She also said:

Quote

The bulk of the world's knowledge is an imaginary construction. History is but a mode of imagining, of making us see civilizations that no longer appear upon the earth. Some of the most significant discoveries in modern science owe their origin to the imagination of men who had neither accurate knowledge nor exact instruments to demonstrate their beliefs. If astronomy had not kept always in advance of the telescope, no one would ever have thought a telescope worth making. What great invention has not existed in the inventor's mind long before he gave it tangible shape?

Which is interesting to consider.

[UnbornTao]

7 hours ago, Stick said:

 

But this thinking still operates from "language." It takes it for granted as an objective reality.

[Human Mint]

What I am finding is that mathematics is not different than english, or spanish, or sign language, or any language. 1/2 is "one divided by two" sooo.... They are the same. 

In fact I would say that mathematics is just a condensed form of spoken language, making it implicit af and full of assumption that you need to uncover and not just copy.

15 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Also, I like to bring up Helen Keller in these conversations.

 

15 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

"History is but a mode of imagining, of making us see civilizations that no longer appear upon the earth."

In that regard, mathematics is also a mode of imagining. It is imagining proportions and forms, divisions. It is imagination. The better you are at math the easiest you see this. If you're just a teen in math class you just copy the procedures and you don't see it as a mode of imagination. It depends on the teachers you have.

Luckily you have a math teacher that cares to explain all those implicit assumption and make you understant the true meaning of mathematic operations.

Mathematics is not different than going to the supermarket and buying bread. Or building a home. It is just repeating different actions to arrive at some place.

Edited December 30, 2025 by Human Mint

[Shermaningeorgia]

Multiplication doesn't exist in nature. Neither do calculus or algebra.

MAths is a tool. It cannot be natural by design. 

[UnbornTao]

On 30/12/2025 at 0:50 PM, Human Mint said:

What I am finding is that mathematics is not different than english, or spanish, or sign language, or any language. 1/2 is "one divided by two" sooo.... They are the same. 

In fact I would say that mathematics is just a condensed form of spoken language, making it implicit af and full of assumption that you need to uncover and not just copy.

I'd agree with you that it is a language. And then the question becomes: What is language? Not any particular language, but the whole thing itself.

"Let there be language!"

Quote

In that regard, mathematics is also a mode of imagining. It is imagining proportions and forms, divisions. It is imagination. The better you are at math the easiest you see this. If you're just a teen in math class you just copy the procedures and you don't see it as a mode of imagination. It depends on the teachers you have.

Luckily you have a math teacher that cares to explain all those implicit assumption and make you understant the true meaning of mathematic operations.

Mathematics is not different than going to the supermarket and buying bread. Or building a home. It is just repeating different actions to arrive at some place.

That may be the case, though the imagining may belong to a different category than simply coming up with things capriciously, of course. It seems to be based on an objective world and its mechanisms. But again, language and reality may be more intertwined than we think. I think the idea that these are two clearly delineated things is a huge assumption from which we may be operating as a culture.

Even so, your observation seems to relate to the content of a particular language - that is, mathematics. Perhaps a question like "What makes it a language?" would help here. How come a sound can be made to represent a distinction that is itself not the sound, but a different experience? What is this possibility about?

Edited December 31, 2025 by UnbornTao

[Human Mint]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Even so, your observation seems to relate to the content of a particular language - that is, mathematics. Perhaps a question like "What makes it a language?" 

That is because I have a bias and I like the content of this particular language.

But I throw a lot of possible answers not as definitive but as examples, since you need to cover a lot if you want to know something. But I think there are better qustions like: what it is to be a human? Is a language just a feature of being a human? Or is it a feature of consciousness? What is higher order than language? What comes before language in cognitive development? What would destroy a language? What cognitive function is better than mathematics? And worse? (In terms of intelligence)

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

though the imagining may belong to a different category

I had an awakening where I saw everything is imagination. So I undertand mathematics is not exeption, it is just pure imagination. Now the contents of it, I do care. Probably because I was constantly forced to learn it during 13 years, but also because I like it.

[UnbornTao]

22 hours ago, Human Mint said:

That is because I have a bias and I like the content of this particular language.

But I throw a lot of possible answers not as definitive but as examples, since you need to cover a lot if you want to know something. But I think there are better qustions like: what it is to be a human? Is a language just a feature of being a human? Or is it a feature of consciousness? What is higher order than language? What comes before language in cognitive development? What would destroy a language? What cognitive function is better than mathematics? And worse? (In terms of intelligence)

I had an awakening where I saw everything is imagination. So I undertand mathematics is not exeption, it is just pure imagination. Now the contents of it, I do care. Probably because I was constantly forced to learn it during 13 years, but also because I like it.

It seems those questions presuppose the existence of language. Language, however, is itself a huge influence on our reality. We may think it reflects reality, but in fact it is superimposed and frames the way we interpret our perceptions.

Content is secondary to the context that allows it to exist in the first place. As for the idea that everything is imagination, I suspect this doesn't truly touch our experience - it is mostly an abstraction based on preference or belief. Perhaps it is so, but the depth and profundity of such a reality likely continue to elude us. Anyway - language!

[Human Mint]

Mathematics is like drawing. 

[Stick]

37 minutes ago, Human Mint said:

Mathematics is like drawing. 

Fuck does that mean bro

[UnbornTao]

14 hours ago, Human Mint said:

Mathematics is like drawing. 

Hmmm...

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Edited 5 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

Breh language is not that deep. It's symbols in a coherent framework. Vocabulary is the "what" of the symbols (the words, the gestures), and the grammar is the "how" (how do the symbols relate to each other). Symbols point to things. So using language means using a coherent framework for pointing to things. Coherent means the words/gestures (symbols) point to things in a consistent way, and that the rules of grammar are consistent. If somebody uses any of these inconsistently, you have a problem of communication.

[UnbornTao]

@Carl-Richard It's fucking deep. It's huge.

That's what she... whatever.

I think it ties into the nature of context.

And yet we totally take it for granted as a given. Maybe that explains our inability to grasp the magnitude of its influence on our experience.

Take away language, and symbol, science, philosophy, belief, religion, art - can't exist. 

Edited 14 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

@Carl-Richard It's fucking deep. It's huge.

That's what she... Whatever. 

Yuuuuge.

But for real doe, getting an understanding for what language is is not that deep. But you can develop a deep understanding of language on top of that. As with anything.

Edited 14 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[UnbornTao]

11 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yuuuuge.

But for real doe, getting an understanding for what language is is not that deep. But you can develop a deep understanding of language on top of that. As with anything.

It is profound - the very possibility of language itself, not the content of any particular language. Notice how you hold it as symbols. Without language, how could symbols, science, philosophy, belief, religion, and art exist? They couldn't.

No matter how many times it's said, we continue to operate from within a world of language, and so we have a hard time stepping out of it and seeing its true influence.

Edited 2 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Natasha Tori Maru]

And even within language itself - the words that are symbols do not have inherent meaning without context. 

I resonate with @UnbornTao here - language is really profound and has shaped us more than we can fully comprehend.

Even down to individuation. If we were a telepathic species the consequences of how we would be expressed as unique individuals would be so different due to the absence of language and its limits & rules. We are very isolated within our own little bubbles of awareness - language acts to attempt to breach that and facilitate intimacy. Telepathy would reduce our reliance on language and dissolve a lot of barriers of connection we face. Just as a little thought example