Is mathematics invented or discovered ?

[Stick]

 

[UnbornTao]

7 hours ago, Human Mint said:

Sadly most of the time when participating in conversations or discussions, the last thing that arrives is truth. It might not be so obvious through a forum but being present in the same room is obviously what happens most of the time, anything but truth. For the simple reason we are so so different, we  have different preferences, motives and needs. Even if we both want to know the same thing one might be in a different state.

Plus, maybe an answer is just intuitive and cannot be spoken... How do you know?? How do you know if I am speaking the truth or I am lying? Not like I want to lie, but being truthful in a conversation is as hard as it gets. Sorry, that's how it is.

You can only know what language is through your own experience. That much should be obvious. And I don't know what kind of communication you resonate with the most, so I could be talking very accurately but for you it is just nonsense. Or I can say nonsense too, that is not wrong, just not helpful.

To me it is about the exchange and the probing themselves. Language exists and is something in its own right, so it is possible to have insight into it. Language is whatever it is, regardless of one's state. And the possibility that it is grasped through one's experience does not mean that we, as selves, are the deciding factor who can simply declare that language is x or y.

As for your second paragraph, yeah, that's mostly what I was trying to allude to with the term insight. I think it is better left open-ended, in the sense that it will be known when each of us personally grasps what it is.

Funnily enough, it could be spoken - using language. That's what language is for. That doesn't mean that what is expressed will be an exact representation, but something will be gotten across.

As hard as it is to actually reproduce, I think pretending or imagining what life was like prior to the existence of language can help open up our inquiry. At the very least, it can be a fun little meditation exercise.

Also, I like to bring up Helen Keller in these conversations. In her lessons, we may be able to appreciate how earth-shattering this whole business can be. Her case might provide a contrast to our already established "language world." 

She also said:

Quote

The bulk of the world's knowledge is an imaginary construction. History is but a mode of imagining, of making us see civilizations that no longer appear upon the earth. Some of the most significant discoveries in modern science owe their origin to the imagination of men who had neither accurate knowledge nor exact instruments to demonstrate their beliefs. If astronomy had not kept always in advance of the telescope, no one would ever have thought a telescope worth making. What great invention has not existed in the inventor's mind long before he gave it tangible shape?

Which is interesting to consider.

[UnbornTao]

7 hours ago, Stick said:

 

But this thinking still operates from "language." It takes it for granted as an objective reality.