Should i stop being vegan ?

[Emerald]

15 hours ago, AION said:

If Steve Jobs couldn't pull a vegan diet with all of his money, resources and expertise, it is madness to think one can do it. He thought he was hacking his biology and telling everybody how well he was doing and at the end he died a horrible death. It is important to listen to your body and eat intuitively. I trained myself to allow myself to eat whatever I want as long as it is not processed, and preferable wholefood. You want to actually be able to pronounce the ingredients of what you are eating. Those vegan buns are terrible for your body. Another thing is that you have to eat according to your genetics. I'm Mediterranean so I go well very on fresh vegatables, meats, olive oil, and certain fats, fruits and carbs.

Nice to know that I could transition to a Vegan diet when I was working as a substitute teacher making $12 per hour... but Steve Jobs couldn't do it as a rich person.

Also, are you claiming that Steve Jobs died because of his Vegan diet? That's going to need a source.

And Vegan diets don't need to be processed. Just get tofu, lentils, beans, etc. and rice, oats, quinoa... and fruits and veggies with some nuts and seeds... and you're golden.

Processed Vegan meats are more like an occasional treat for those who enjoy them. And they're good for people who are transitioning from an omnivorous diet to a Vegan diet.

Also, the Mediterranean diet is mostly plant-based anyway with the addition of fish here and there. That's why it's the healthiest omnivorous diet because it minimizes red meat.

[Ramasta9]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

We're talking about one guy here just to be clear 😂

I've seen a pattern with a whole bunch of players on these forums who do not understand simple biology and reject / deny the clear facts placed in front of them. Even if you show proof and evidence they deny / reject it.

Most people in the world eat largely plant-based diets, and the longest-lived populations and (blue zones) around the world rely on mostly plants. If this isn't clear enough... but you know these knuckleheads...

 

Edited yesterday at 07:00 AM by Ramasta9

[AION]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Nice to know that I could transition to a Vegan diet when I was working as a substitute teacher making $12 per hour... but Steve Jobs couldn't do it as a rich person.

This is the mindset Jobs had to "look at me while I'm healthy". The thing is when you are young you can eat shit and still be ok. I knew this girl and she ate fastfood everyday, not working out and she looked like a super model. So if you were her you would say, I look like a super model because of my diet but diet is just one variable. You can only say that veganism has worked for you when you are at the same age of Steve Jobs death. I hope you life a long and happy life but it is too early to say that you reached the finish line.

Quote

 And Vegan diets don't need to be processed. Just get tofu, lentils, beans, etc. and rice, oats, quinoa... and fruits and veggies with some nuts and seeds... and you're golden.

Those are good. Those foods are in my regular diet. The only thing I won't eat is tofu. For men it can cause all kinds of problems.

Quote

Processed Vegan meats are more like an occasional treat for those who enjoy them. And they're good for people who are transitioning from an omnivorous diet to a Vegan diet.

Also, the Mediterranean diet is mostly plant-based anyway with the addition of fish here and there. That's why it's the healthiest omnivorous diet because it minimizes red meat.

I'm not eating vegan buns as a treat because that signals my current diet is a burden. I don't allow myself to eat any chemical stuff like tofu or vegan buns, period. If I want to treat myself I do it with a t-bone steak with asperagus in dairy butter with a nice big leafy green salad with avocado, olive oil etc. Some asians might be able to live off vegan diets but I'm not asian. I have a different build and if you listen to your body you know if your current diet is good for you or not. Mediterranean diet is perfect for me. It is not mostly vegan but there are a lot of vegan dishes and I love it. I always try to eat the 2 x the amount of fresh vegetables versus fresh meat.

Edited yesterday at 08:15 AM by AION

[Ramasta9]

 

Edited yesterday at 09:07 AM by Ramasta9

[Basman]

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

And ultimately, it doesn't matter what was "natural" in the past... it matters what is optimal for health. (if you're looking from a health perspective)

The issue is that people are deluding themselves into thinking that humans categorically aren't omnivores. You can do whatever in your personal life, but don't start making up shit.

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

And then in knowing that, we can question whether or not the way our teeth are shaped and the way our digestive tract is has anything to do with why Vegan diets are associated with better health outcomes.

You don't need sharp teeth to eat meat. People eat meat their entire lives just fine. Carnivores rarely chew their food as they swallow their food whole mostly. Sharp teeth isn't for chewing but for gripping flesh. Humans don't need sharp teeth because we hunt with our hands and we cook (and we also need to chew thoroughly).

This is what I mean by cope. It's so reaching.

Edited yesterday at 10:48 AM by Basman

[Carl-Richard]

12 hours ago, Ramasta9 said:

Most people in the world eat largely plant-based diets, and the longest-lived populations and (blue zones) around the world rely on mostly plants. If this isn't clear enough... but you know these knuckleheads...

When I think about it, I eat a lot of plants. I calculated that only ~18% of my meal today is meat in weight. The rest is potatoes, broccoli, cauliflower, red bell pepper, onion, garlic, extra illegal olive oil, cilantro and some parmesan cheese 😂

[Schizophonia]

13 hours ago, Ramasta9 said:

I've seen a pattern with a whole bunch of players on these forums who do not understand simple biology and reject / deny the clear facts placed in front of them. Even if you show proof and evidence they deny / reject it.

Most people in the world eat largely plant-based diets, and the longest-lived populations and (blue zones) around the world rely on mostly plants. If this isn't clear enough... but you know these knuckleheads...

 

It's the opposite of reality, the countries with the highest life expectancies and tallest people (Japan, Hong Kong, France, Southern Italy, the Netherlands, certain areas in the Balkans...) are all countries with high meat consumption.

Even when meat consumption was lower, people ate it occasionally and supplemented it with plenty of dairy products, eggs, and seafood; for example, just a few centuries ago, oysters in France were considered a poor man's dish.
Vegetables were conserved in large quantities of animal fat, such as pork fat, and legumes were cooked in broth and fat.

The only people I've heard say the opposite are guys like McDougall or Neil Barnard, who are pure and simple mythomaniacs.

Edited yesterday at 08:47 PM by Schizophonia

[Emerald]

12 hours ago, AION said:

This is the mindset Jobs had to "look at me while I'm healthy". The thing is when you are young you can eat shit and still be ok. I knew this girl and she ate fastfood everyday, not working out and she looked like a super model. So if you were her you would say, I look like a super model because of my diet but diet is just one variable. You can only say that veganism has worked for you when you are at the same age of Steve Jobs death. I hope you life a long and happy life but it is too early to say that you reached the finish line.

Those are good. Those foods are in my regular diet. The only thing I won't eat is tofu. For men it can cause all kinds of problems.

I'm not eating vegan buns as a treat because that signals my current diet is a burden. I don't allow myself to eat any chemical stuff like tofu or vegan buns, period. If I want to treat myself I do it with a t-bone steak with asperagus in dairy butter with a nice big leafy green salad with avocado, olive oil etc. Some asians might be able to live off vegan diets but I'm not asian. I have a different build and if you listen to your body you know if your current diet is good for you or not. Mediterranean diet is perfect for me. It is not mostly vegan but there are a lot of vegan dishes and I love it. I always try to eat the 2 x the amount of fresh vegetables versus fresh meat.

Plant-based diets are statistically associated with longer life-spans and lower instances of diseases that most often lead to human death according to a variety of studies and meta-analyses. 

So, you can say that your omnivorous diet is healthy now because you're young... definitely younger than me. But if you keep on with eating animal products, you will statistically be at a higher risk of heart disease, stroke, and certain types of cancers.

Also, I went Vegan when I was 27 and I'm 36 now. So, I'm not that young. I'm in the beginning of my middle aged years. And I know a few people who follow a plant-based diet who are in their 60s and 70s and are in way better shape than the average person of their age.

That's an anecdote of course, but the anecdote matches with what the studies show.

Also, men don't actually experience issues when consuming tofu. That's a commonly believed myth because there are "phytoestrogens" in soy. But they're only called phytoestrogens because they resemble the shape of estrogen and bind weakly to estrogen receptors... not because they actually are estrogen or have the effects that estrogen does in the body.

So, there is no evidence that tofu or other soy products have a Feminizing effect in men. That's just a commonly believed myth.

Also tofu is a whole food... not chemical. It's just bean curd. You can man tofu at home from soy beans. You can even make lentil tofu.

Also, I don't know what Vegan buns are. What are those? Do you mean like hamburger buns? Most bread is already Vegan anyway.

But the idea that incorporating treats into one's diet implies that the diet is cumbersome just isn't how people generally operate. 

I occasionally incorporate treats like coffee and brownie cups, and it's just what I like to eat for a treat... but something that I don't eat every day. But I also really enjoy the foods that I do eat every day (which are mostly whole grains, legumes, fruits, vegetables, and nuts.)

And for a person who enjoys the flavors and textures of meat but is eating a plant-based diet, eating some kind of processed alternative is a good occasional treat.... though not healthy to eat every day.

Like the other day my husband made a Vegan version of a traditional Hungarian dish called Pörkölt with some plant-based beef tips and it was really nice. But it wouldn't be something I'd eat every day because it has a lot of oil in it... and I like to keep things mostly whole food.

[Carl-Richard]

35 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Like the other day my husband made a Vegan version of a traditional Hungarian dish called Pörkölt with some plant-based beef tips and it was really nice. But it wouldn't be something I'd eat every day because it has a lot of oil in it... and I like to keep things mostly whole food.

How does veganism do on the dating market?

[Basman]

30 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

How does veganism do on the dating market?

Do you like 'em crazy?

[Carl-Richard]

16 minutes ago, Basman said:

Do you like 'em crazy?

I like em loose, in the bowel movements.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

How does veganism do on the dating market?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean... as I am married and female. So, I don't have the same concerns as a man who is dating.

But if I was dating... I'm a woman. So my challenge in dating is not attracting like it is for men, as the fact that some men will be attracted is a given purely on the basis of being female.

Instead, it's the question of sorting the right one from the wrong ones.

So, if I were dating, I don't have to question, "Oh no. If I'm Vegan... what if men don't like me?" Or "What if men find it to be a turn-off?"

Instead, it's a matter of sorting out the incompatible men from the compatible ones... and a man who has a "no Vegans" rule or who doesn't like Vegans or who hates on Veganism is someone that I would just sort from consideration. 

Now, my husband is not Vegan himself.... he just cuts down on meat and dairy for health reasons.

But I suppose if I were dating, it would be a big plus if a guy was Vegan or Vegetarian... but not a dealbreaker if he isn't. But it would be a dealbreaker if he were explicitly anti-Vegan.

What I would say is that having a strong value or set of values puts you more in a selective stance.

So, it goes from a "How do I get women to like me?" scarcity-stance to "Does this woman hold the same values as me?" abundance-stance.

Like, I have a male friend of mine who is Vegan... and he won't date a woman unless she already is Vegan or agrees to switch to live a Vegan lifestyle. And in the past 7-8 years that I've known him, he's not had any issues finding a girlfriend... and very attractive ones at that.

He's a lot more strict about this boundary than I am because animal rights activism is a bigger part of his life than it is for me. I'm just a politically disengaged Vegan who just lives the lifestyle... but he goes to protests and things like that.

Mind you, he's also a classically handsome and charismatic guy quite naturally. So, I'm sure that plays into it quite a bit.

But I think that any man who has a strong value(s) that he holds to makes him more attractive to women who also hold that value... and makes him come across as someone with more substance in general, as he's more grounded in something beyond just himself.

But at any rate... don't go Vegan for the sake of getting dates. Only do it if you believe in it.

[AION]

@Emerald  I meant vegan hamburgers with vegan buns.

My diet is mostly vegan with some fresh cut meats. I think most people get into problems with meat because they eat processed food.

It doesn't matter if you are vegan or meat eater, real killer is processed foods.

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, AION said:

@Emerald  I meant vegan hamburgers with vegan buns.

My diet is mostly vegan with some fresh cut meats. I think most people get into problems with meat because they eat processed food.

It doesn't matter if you are vegan or meat eater, real killer is processed foods.

Processed meats are worse than unprocessed meats health-wise. That is true.

But even unprocessed meat (especially red meat) is statistically correlated with higher risk of heart disease, stroke, cancer, and all-cause mortality in general.

So, while processed foods are associated with worse health outcomes in general... there is a clear health advantage to removing even unprocessed meats from one's diet.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

One of my housemates around 2020 was a vegan and openly dating on apps (women). 

When we interviewed her to move in she never mentioned she was a vegan. We found out a week in when she casually mentioned it. I, in my usual direct way, asked why TF she didn't tell us when we were interviewing her: 'I just find it invites trouble and prejudice. It's easier to just do my thing and not impact anyone else. Mentioning I am a vegan has gotten me rejected from applications' 

Apparently she had asked why she missed out on a few houses and the girls all reported it was the vegan thing. This housemate was chill, and totally fine with seeing meat and using a kitchen where meat had been prepped. She didn't impede on others.

Same shit with dating. She would never mention she was a vegan unless she really had to. Her mindset was her eating habits wouldn't impact anyone else (or shouldn't), and she could usually find something to eat that was vegan on any menu. 

Weird thing to have to hide, but that's how she approached it dating wise. She hid what others might reject her for 🥹 

She was also the first chick I lived with that told me her family was haunted. And I dismissed her... Until I saw some wack as fuck shit happen while she lives with us.

[UnbornTao]

Seems to boil down to preference, or opinion. 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

One of my housemates around 2020 was a vegan and openly dating on apps (women). 

When we interviewed her to move in she never mentioned she was a vegan. We found out a week in when she casually mentioned it. I, in my usual direct way, asked why TF she didn't tell us when we were interviewing her: 'I just find it invites trouble and prejudice. It's easier to just do my thing and not impact anyone else. Mentioning I am a vegan has gotten me rejected from applications' 

Apparently she had asked why she missed out on a few houses and the girls all reported it was the vegan thing. This housemate was chill, and totally fine with seeing meat and using a kitchen where meat had been prepped. She didn't impede on others.

Same shit with dating. She would never mention she was a vegan unless she really had to. Her mindset was her eating habits wouldn't impact anyone else (or shouldn't), and she could usually find something to eat that was vegan on any menu. 

Weird thing to have to hide, but that's how she approached it dating wise. She hid what others might reject her for 🥹 

She was also the first chick I lived with that told me her family was haunted. And I dismissed her... Until I saw some wack as fuck shit happen while she lives with us.

That is a shame. I would suggest to her (at least in dating and friendship) to let her freak flag fly about it and be very transparent about her values... otherwise she may end up with people who don't accept her for who she is and would reject her for her values (which would be her main fear made manifest).

Though, I can understand hiding it if you need to find a place to live and you've been rejected for being Vegan in the past.

It can be frustrating because it's one of those "no good deed goes unpunished" things because people really don't like it when other people are walking the talk around their ethical values.

People (especially non-Vegan animal lovers) can often feel like someone simply being Vegan puts them on trial in an imaginary trial... even if that Vegan isn't imposing in any way because it makes them feel guilty.

They tend to have their own judgments of themselves for running afoul of their own ethical values... and then transfer that onto Vegans... and especially onto a quiet Vegan if that Vegan is going out of their way to hide themselves. That person becomes a blank projection screen for that person's most biting judgments of themselves..

And I recently heard about a study that was referred to in a video I was watching. I'll have to look it up to verify it.

And in the study people were asked about their feelings about different types of groups... Vegans were one... Vegetarians were another. And then there were groups along the lines of race, gender, sexuality, etc. and other kinds of groups too like immigrants.

And Vegans were the lowest ranked group in terms of likability. No one likes a goody-two-shoes who lives in integrity with popularly-held values when most other people are not. And the Vegan philosophy itself and their views on animals are very widely held... but rarely lived by.

So, it's quite difficult to stand firm in one's own integrity when so many people will hate on you for it for shining the light on their own inconsistencies just by (even quietly) existing in a state of integrity with your values.

Edited 4 minutes ago by Emerald

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Emerald interesting point regarding the study. Perhaps the deciding factor is choice and personal conduct. 

Veganism is a choice - and when we choose differently to others (especially when this choice is ethical or runs counter to society norms) it forces people to reflect on their own behaviour. Something like race does not have the loaded nature of choice associated with it. I find similar issue when others find out I do not drink or eat processed food. Problematic in Australia as our drinking culture is intense. People bond through alcohol.

And yes I did raise that with Coral (that transparency is always best from the outset), she simply viewed it as removing obstacles to dates or life options. But that in itself is problematic: one should not have to pretzel themselves into something else to get on. 

I dislike that sort of behaviour in myself because it breeds resentment over time. Resentment is poison to me.