Leo, do you still see a difference between Liberalism and Progressivism?

[Hardkill]

Hey Leo,

About six years ago you wrote:

On 8/24/2019 at 3:07 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Serotoninluv 

I would say progressives are usually more left than liberals and progressives really care about making structural reforms to the system without too much concern for maintaining the old norms. One of those old norms is the dogma that capitalism is the only viable system and an absolute good.

To me a progressive cares most about making serious changes to society to improve it. A progressive sees not making enough change as more dangerous than making too much change. Which is the polar opposite of a conservative. A progressive has a vision for how great society could be if we get our shit together and act big as a unit.

I’ve been thinking about that after studying how the terms liberal and progressive have evolved.

Historically, figures like TR and Wilson called themselves Progressives, while FDR branded himself a Liberal—yet FDR’s reforms were even more transformative and “progressive” in practice.

Today the boundary between the two feels even blurrier: mainstream liberalism dominates U.S. politics, while progressivism functions as a reformist minority inside it.

Do you still view progressivism as that deeper willingness to redesign the entire system rather than merely improve it?

And how do you distinguish progressivism from liberalism now—from a developmental or consciousness perspective?

Has your view shifted as politics has evolved since you first said that?

Would like to hear your updated take

Edited October 5 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

Today there is a clear difference between liberals (centerists) and leftists (progressives).

The difference is that liberals are mostly okay with the status quo/captialism and leftists want radical systemic changes to capitalism, sometimes going as far as socialism but not always that far.

It is a spectrum. "Liberal" is a term co-opted by leftists to call out neoliberal capitalists and centrists.

Most liberals are too moderate and most leftists are too radical and utopian. So the correct place to be is somewhere in the middle of liberal and leftist.

[Hardkill]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Today there is a clear difference between liberals (centerists) and leftists (progressives).

The difference is that liberals are mostly okay with the status quo/captialism and leftists want radical systemic changes to capitalism, sometimes going as far as socialism but not always that far.

It is a spectrum. "Liberal" is a term co-opted by leftists to call out neoliberal capitalists and centrists.

Most liberals are too moderate and most leftists are too radical and utopian. So the correct place to be is somewhere in the middle of liberal and leftist.

But liberalism and progressivism are both examples of stage Green, whereas the status quo/capitalism in America is primarily stage Orange.

So, you mean that liberals are center-left, whereas progressives are solid leftists?

 

Edited October 6 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

Liberals are Orange/Green. Leftists are more solid Green.

Liberals have not outgrow Orange. They still cling to Orange. Solid Green is too radical for them.

[Hardkill]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Liberals are Orange/Green. Leftists are more solid Green.

Liberals have not outgrow Orange. They still cling to Orange. Solid Green is too radical for them.

Okay, so liberals aren’t solid Orange either, but are like in an area that’s transitioning from Orange to Green.

[Staples]

 

51 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Okay, so liberals aren’t solid Orange either, but are like in an area that’s transitioning from Orange to Green.

Depends on the type of liberal you are talking about. In Australia and the UK we make a distinction between wets and drys.

Liberals are generally orange, but can lean either side of the spiral.

The wets go to the opera (green), the dries go to church (blue).

Edited October 6 by Staples

[Leo Gura]

56 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Okay, so liberals aren’t solid Orange either, but are like in an area that’s transitioning from Orange to Green.

Some liberals are solid Orange. Although in today's radicalized culture war environment a solid Orange person is likely to get pulled into the anti-woke or right-wing liberterian camp. Example would be Owen Cook or Joe Rogan.

If you are solid Orange today then you are probably pro-Trump, which makes it hard to call you a liberal. But in practice Trump is quite neoliberal in his policies.

The best example of liberals today is CNN news achors like Jake Trapper or Anderson Cooper.

Edited October 6 by Leo Gura

[Joel3102]

@Leo Gura Can you be centre-left and yellow?

[Hardkill]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Some liberals are solid Orange. Although in today's radicalized culture war environment a solid Orange person is likely to get pulled into the anti-woke or right-wing liberterian camp. Example would be Owen Cook or Joe Rogan.

If you are solid Orange today then you are probably pro-Trump, which makes it hard to call you a liberal. But in practice Trump is quite neoliberal in his policies.

The best example of liberals today is CNN news achors like Jake Trapper or Anderson Cooper.

I've had it with news anchors like Jake Tapper or Anderson Cooper for not doing nearly enough to warn the people about the dangers of Trump and their constant bothsideism.

I am also disgusted with Owen Cook and Joe Rogan.

That means that everyone associated with Chorus and Pod Save America must have a lot more Green in them than all of the abovementioned names.

Edited October 6 by Hardkill

[Joel3102]

17 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

I've had it with news anchors like Jake Tapper or Anderson Cooper for not doing nearly enough to warn the people about the dangers of Trump and their constant bothsideism.

I am also disgusted with Owen Cook and Joe Rogan.

That means that everyone associated with Chorus and Pod Save America must have a lot more Green in them than all of the abovementioned names.

It’s funny how many of the former Republican never-Trumpers like The Bulwark, David Frum, Kinzinger etc are far more steadfast in their Trump resistance than these “both sides” liberals like Tapper have become.

[Leo Gura]

36 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

@Leo Gura Can you be centre-left and yellow?

Sure

[Hardkill]

33 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

It’s funny how many of the former Republican never-Trumpers like The Bulwark, David Frum, Kinzinger etc are far more steadfast in their Trump resistance than these “both sides” liberals like Tapper have become.

Yeah! It is very interesting even though they are conservative-leaning individuals with healthy and good Blue values and Orange.

Edited October 6 by Hardkill

[Inliytened1]

On 10/5/2025 at 8:03 PM, Leo Gura said:

Today there is a clear difference between liberals (centerists) and leftists (progressives).

The difference is that liberals are mostly okay with the status quo/captialism and leftists want radical systemic changes to capitalism, sometimes going as far as socialism but not always that far.

It is a spectrum. "Liberal" is a term co-opted by leftists to call out neoliberal capitalists and centrists.

Most liberals are too moderate and most leftists are too radical and utopian. So the correct place to be is somewhere in the middle of liberal and leftist.

I wouldn't say all centrists would be pure liberal either.  I am for capitalism for example but I am open to changes to capitalism.  But if you are generalizing then maybe.  But because the term was co-opted as you say I don't feel it would really fit what a pure centrist would be.

Edited October 7 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

A centrist will certainly be a capitalist. They can't think far enough outside the box to be anything else.

Being anti-capitalist either requires serious brainwashing or serious thinking. And no one is doing serious thinking.

Edited October 7 by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A centrist will certainly be a capitalist. They can't think far enough outside the box to be anything else.

Being anti-capitalist either requires serious brainwashing or serious thinking. And no one is doing serious thinking.

Are you completely anti-capitalist or completely anti-socialist? Probably not.

[Hardkill]

On 10/5/2025 at 11:23 PM, Leo Gura said:

Sure

Can a right-winger or even a center-right person with good principles and healthy values be stage Yellow as well?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Are you completely anti-capitalist or completely anti-socialist? Probably not.

I would be for socialism if it worked. But socialism is hippie nonsense, so I am forced to be capitalist.

There is no choice about it. We are all capitalists. Even the craziest socialist is actually a capitalist. He's just in denial about it.

Capitalism isn't a choice. It's just nature.

Edited October 8 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Can a right-winger or even a center-right person with good principles and healthy values be stage Yellow as well?

I think so.

[Hardkill]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I think so.

Wow. 

I kinda thought that. However, that's gotta be extremely rare given how contradictory conservatism and stage Yellow seem to be with each other.

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

A centrist will certainly be a capitalist. They can't think far enough outside the box to be anything else.

Being anti-capitalist either requires serious brainwashing or serious thinking. And no one is doing serious thinking.

Wait, I just realized something. If today's liberals in America are centrists who rather keep the status quo/capitalism, and the broad middle or moderates are still the largest percentage of people in America, then does that mean that today's liberals in America are the largest percentage of people in America?