Hardkill

Leo, do you still see a difference between Liberalism and Progressivism?

12 posts in this topic

Hey Leo,

About six years ago you wrote:

On 8/24/2019 at 3:07 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Serotoninluv 

I would say progressives are usually more left than liberals and progressives really care about making structural reforms to the system without too much concern for maintaining the old norms. One of those old norms is the dogma that capitalism is the only viable system and an absolute good.

To me a progressive cares most about making serious changes to society to improve it. A progressive sees not making enough change as more dangerous than making too much change. Which is the polar opposite of a conservative. A progressive has a vision for how great society could be if we get our shit together and act big as a unit.

I’ve been thinking about that after studying how the terms liberal and progressive have evolved.

Historically, figures like TR and Wilson called themselves Progressives, while FDR branded himself a Liberal—yet FDR’s reforms were even more transformative and “progressive” in practice.

Today the boundary between the two feels even blurrier: mainstream liberalism dominates U.S. politics, while progressivism functions as a reformist minority inside it.

Do you still view progressivism as that deeper willingness to redesign the entire system rather than merely improve it?

And how do you distinguish progressivism from liberalism now—from a developmental or consciousness perspective?

Has your view shifted as politics has evolved since you first said that?

Would like to hear your updated take

Edited by Hardkill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today there is a clear difference between liberals (centerists) and leftists (progressives).

The difference is that liberals are mostly okay with the status quo/captialism and leftists want radical systemic changes to capitalism, sometimes going as far as socialism but not always that far.

It is a spectrum. "Liberal" is a term co-opted by leftists to call out neoliberal capitalists and centrists.

Most liberals are too moderate and most leftists are too radical and utopian. So the correct place to be is somewhere in the middle of liberal and leftist.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Today there is a clear difference between liberals (centerists) and leftists (progressives).

The difference is that liberals are mostly okay with the status quo/captialism and leftists want radical systemic changes to capitalism, sometimes going as far as socialism but not always that far.

It is a spectrum. "Liberal" is a term co-opted by leftists to call out neoliberal capitalists and centrists.

Most liberals are too moderate and most leftists are too radical and utopian. So the correct place to be is somewhere in the middle of liberal and leftist.

But liberalism and progressivism are both examples of stage Green, whereas the status quo/capitalism in America is primarily stage Orange.

So, you mean that liberals are center-left, whereas progressives are solid leftists?

 

Edited by Hardkill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Liberals are Orange/Green. Leftists are more solid Green.

Liberals have not outgrow Orange. They still cling to Orange. Solid Green is too radical for them.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Liberals are Orange/Green. Leftists are more solid Green.

Liberals have not outgrow Orange. They still cling to Orange. Solid Green is too radical for them.

Okay, so liberals aren’t solid Orange either, but are like in an area that’s transitioning from Orange to Green.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

51 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Okay, so liberals aren’t solid Orange either, but are like in an area that’s transitioning from Orange to Green.

Depends on the type of liberal you are talking about. In Australia and the UK we make a distinction between wets and drys.

Liberals are generally orange, but can lean either side of the spiral.

The wets go to the opera (green), the dries go to church (blue).

Edited by Staples

Don't be shit. Be good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Okay, so liberals aren’t solid Orange either, but are like in an area that’s transitioning from Orange to Green.

Some liberals are solid Orange. Although in today's radicalized culture war environment a solid Orange person is likely to get pulled into the anti-woke or right-wing liberterian camp. Example would be Owen Cook or Joe Rogan.

If you are solid Orange today then you are probably pro-Trump, which makes it hard to call you a liberal. But in practice Trump is quite neoliberal in his policies.

The best example of liberals today is CNN news achors like Jake Trapper or Anderson Cooper.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Some liberals are solid Orange. Although in today's radicalized culture war environment a solid Orange person is likely to get pulled into the anti-woke or right-wing liberterian camp. Example would be Owen Cook or Joe Rogan.

If you are solid Orange today then you are probably pro-Trump, which makes it hard to call you a liberal. But in practice Trump is quite neoliberal in his policies.

The best example of liberals today is CNN news achors like Jake Trapper or Anderson Cooper.

I've had it with news anchors like Jake Tapper or Anderson Cooper for not doing nearly enough to warn the people about the dangers of Trump and their constant bothsideism.

I am also disgusted with Owen Cook and Joe Rogan.

That means that everyone associated with Chorus and Pod Save America must have a lot more Green in them than all of the abovementioned names.

Edited by Hardkill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

I've had it with news anchors like Jake Tapper or Anderson Cooper for not doing nearly enough to warn the people about the dangers of Trump and their constant bothsideism.

I am also disgusted with Owen Cook and Joe Rogan.

That means that everyone associated with Chorus and Pod Save America must have a lot more Green in them than all of the abovementioned names.

It’s funny how many of the former Republican never-Trumpers like The Bulwark, David Frum, Kinzinger etc are far more steadfast in their Trump resistance than these “both sides” liberals like Tapper have become.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

@Leo Gura Can you be centre-left and yellow?

Sure


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

It’s funny how many of the former Republican never-Trumpers like The Bulwark, David Frum, Kinzinger etc are far more steadfast in their Trump resistance than these “both sides” liberals like Tapper have become.

Yeah! It is very interesting even though they are conservative-leaning individuals with healthy and good Blue values and Orange.

Edited by Hardkill

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now