Who Wants Actualized Psychedelic Retreats?

[UnbornTao]

On 10/13/2025 at 0:44 AM, Leo Gura said:

Everything is a fiction. That's what God is.

God is a fiction?

In any case, you still believe that, basically, fiction 1 (drug) + fiction 2 (brain) = awakening from the fiction.

Edited 10 hours ago by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 10/13/2025 at 0:49 AM, Leo Gura said:

This is false. What you call "absolutely conscious" is still a low degree of consciousness even though it is absolute.

That is not a contradiction. All states of consciousness are absolute, even the low ones. That doesn't mean you are seriously conscious.

Consciousness of the Absolute is easy. I am pointing beyond that. And yes, there is a beyond.

No. This is not about sematics or language. Enlightenment is low consciousness. Period. Higher consciousness exists. You are missing this consciousness. Which is why I keep pointing to it. If I didn't point to it none of you would know it exists.

I am pointing to something which nobody knows exists.

For example, nobody here knows that Alien Consciousness exists.

Consciousness doesn't come and go. The point of it being absolute is that there could not possibly be anything beyond it. How could there be - except as a relative phenomenon, where it is thought of as "lots and lots," and notions of higher, lower, easy, or weaker apply? And it may well be about semantics. You seem to want another term to feel special or like an outlier. But "beyond" is still relative, as hard as it is to understand. Even when it is pointed to, what is it that is being referred to? Any distinction that comes to mind as a result of hearing these terms will, by necessity, miss the mark.

Do you mean the subjective, chemically-induced state in which you actually thought you could turn yourself into an alien and record it on camera?

Edited 10 hours ago by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 13/10/2025 at 1:23 AM, Leo Gura said:

Yes it is.

You are in that state right now and it determines everything you know.

It depends on what you mean by knowing, but you're (again) likely referring to the domain of experience. A state is a state.

The fundamental blunder lies in the assumptions behind phrases such as: "If I am high on 5-MeO-DMT and super conscious of God…". Can you see how this relates to perceptual phenomena - and that it's relative? If you're actually conscious of your nature, that doesn't disappear when the drug wears off or your state and experience change.

It's no more true than believing that taking a shower produces God-realization. Obviously, with the substances, you can experience dramatic shifts in mind state that you can't get from a shower (unless the water is really, really cold!).

I should've clarified that I'm not against psychedelics or the retreat, in case someone is thinking that. The retreat could be immensely transformative and valuable for people, but there's no pill for this direct business, and the method can't do it for you.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), my counterargument goes no further than yours: believing that direct consciousness can be chemically induced, or that it is an experience, or a function of the brain, is false. It has more to do with wishful thinking than with reality. It's easy to fool oneself by being carried away by the trip, because it can be impressive, unusual, blissful, "loving," and all the rest.

Edited 4 hours ago by UnbornTao

[vibv]

On 13.10.2025 at 1:49 AM, Leo Gura said:

I am pointing to something which nobody knows exists.

Me too. God is so amazing that we all can know something which nobody knows exists.

This doesn't in any way devalue Alien Consciousness. On the contrary! You've gone very deep there and I actually don't know what you experienced. Isn't it absolutely genius in its design?

In the same manner have I seen stuff that nobody here did (yet), including you.

[UnbornTao]

On 13/10/2025 at 1:08 AM, UnbornTao said:

The bitch of it all is that consciousness ain't a state.

Hence the conflation.

@Leo Gura - you may not be as awake as you think. You keep associating your drug-of-choice trips with "Awakening," which makes me think you're still referring to experience and perceptive phenomena. There might be a fundamental blunder in there. Keep in mind that experience constitutes everything you recognize as life and reality. That's what your mind and attention will be focused on.

That's probably the genesis of the "baseline state of consciousness" narrative. You're literally denigrating truth into a drug high. You really think the Absolute can be accessed through a change in physiology.

You know, Ralston, Ramana, Meher Baba, Adi Da - they might have a point.

When you asked Ralston about the impossibility of him being in "constant" Satori, you were still holding direct consciousness as a state that one has. And he told you it wasn't an experience - that you were looking at something other than direct consciousness. Something like that.

This is a segment of his response:

  Quote

"And actually, yes, I do walk around in a constant state of kensho and satori, but I suspect you have a different notion of what that means. I think what you mean as an awakening or a direct consciousness is experiencing something first hand. This is an important thing to do in this work but you misunderstand what direct means. And you confuse brain and neurological activity and what can be experienced with consciousness."

 

  Quote

Do you think Ramana would be less God-realized if he had dementia, a brain tumor, or had been drunk? To go one step further: Do you think he'd have been less God-realized after his death (at which point his brain obviously didn't function)?

Obviously, with such a question, the nonsensical nature of it is precisely the point.

Getting discouraged with the direct approach can be a common trap.

Consider that.

Additionally, do you think that if Maharshi were to take a bunch of 5-MeO or other chemicals, what he was conscious of would be affected or touched in any way?

Edited 9 hours ago by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 10/13/2025 at 0:19 AM, zurew said:

Absolute truth , would be a  truth that is true regardless of the level of consciousness, because its not made true by a particular level/state of consciousness.

Sounds reasonable.

Edited 11 hours ago by UnbornTao

[vibv]

50 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

God is a fiction?

Right, you still believe that fiction 1 (drug) + fiction 2 (brain) = awakening from the fiction.

God is a Storyteller. But it's all improvised.

It's not about escaping, it's about beginning to play in a way we couldn't dream of until now.

Awakening brings you into a position where you're finally ready to play.

Edited 13 hours ago by vibv

[vibv]

16 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Sounds reasonable.

The problem is reducing what's true to a state.

Absolute being is already the case, no matter what state you're in. And it certainly doesn't change, come or go, or "remain the same," either.

While you try to reduce the Absolute to the no-state state.

You're both right. The misunderstanding lies therein that only one possibility could be true at the same time. It's always always always both.

Edited 13 hours ago by vibv

[zurew]

14 minutes ago, vibv said:

While you try to reduce the Absolute to the no-state state.

Thats not the point, the point is that its not dependent on any particular state.

The idea is that enlightement is always "avalaible", no matter the state.

[vibv]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Thats not the point, the point is that its not dependent on any particular state.

The idea is that enlightement is always "avalaible", no matter the state.

True. But it's also true that Alien Consciousness is something of importance and value and nobody except Leo went that deep into it and I can't wait to find out what he found. This is how Creation works!!

[UnbornTao]

[Water by the River]

6 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Consciousness doesn't come and go. The point of it being absolute is that there could not possibly be anything beyond it. How could there be - except as a relative phenomenon, where it is thought of as "lots and lots," and notions of higher, lower, easy, or weaker apply? And it may well be about semantics. You seem to want another term to feel special or like an outlier. But "beyond" is still relative, as hard as it is to understand. Even when it is pointed to, what is it that is being referred to? Any distinction that comes to mind as a result of hearing these terms will, by necessity, miss the mark.

 

That which is truly aware doesn't come and go. Sometimes "it" has nothing to be aware of. I see this deep intuition in your posts, and why you value Ralstons material so much because of that. In my view, that comes deeply from your soul, and I consider it as a very precious intuition of your soul.

And THAT which is aware watches all the Ant/Human/Alien/Divine Being "individuality" (aka consciousness), which is nothing else than the subjective appearing side of the nondual whole. It is still an arising in the dream...

For me its perfectly clear why Reality looks for Leo the way it does (some "consciousness" higher than the other). Because he has never let go fully of all of these juicy subjective parts (aka what he calls higher consciousness, or "consciousness of" Ant/Human/Alien/Divine Being, n+1), leaving some filters/lenses and subjective distorations (aka states) still in place. Even in nondual states giving rise to beings more complex than humans (Alien)... And I totally understand why he totally doesn't understand what I am saying and why I am saying that.

My challenge for Leo would be: Sit down on the pillow, meditate until suffering and boredom stops, die on the pillow, then die some more, then die until the Leo-thing is done with, and then see what is really the case when one is able to shut down the arisings of the illusionary separate-self (aka Leo) in real-time - sobre. And if that is not doable, then why? Hint: Leo not quite dead  transcended and done with. Ah, the untranscended self-contraction. And once this bug is fully transcended in real time, then tell us when the bliss of the Absolute and the release of any form of self-contraction has started flowing, if the Alien is still so fascinating.

Maybe then he will understand why everyone who has achieved Enlightenment (or realized ones own True Nature) values the flow of bliss and the infinite release of Duality, or resting in ones True Being as the Summum Bonum. All possible questions are answered in this. All there ever could be (including Alien) is just mere appearance in ones boundless Being, and the bliss of that Being drowns all grasping. And the end-point of this multi-life-journey is not exploring the multiverse in a grasping way to ease the contraction of the untranscended separate-self. That is done until one tires of it, which can be speeded up with insight. Then, one can still celebrate Gods Infinity of realms. But then, in a non-grasping way, a celebration, because the self-contraction that suffers/grasps/contracts is dead/gone, a mere illusion that once appeared in ones True Being.

On 12.10.2025 at 9:34 PM, Leo Gura said:

The answer to that question is so profound that if you took bufo 100 times you would still not reach the bottom of it.

It will be revealed to you one degree at a time.

After like 500 trips I still don't have the full answer.

You will never have the answer going down that road, since its Infinity on Infinity on Infinity forever. God will never run out of Infinities/Aliens/Diving Beings/whatever n+1. You will drop dead before you have the full answer going down that road. But if that is the only tool you have to ease your self-contraction a bit, well, go ahead on do it until you are tired of it - this life or the next. Which, btw., is also the point of the ride: To do what you like until you get tired of that. Or maybe have some insight into the whole process and jump to the next step. Less tiring & suffering. Either way, its how Reality celebrates the appearance of your life.

In that sense, let's celebrate the journey we are on to the best of our abilities, and 

Godspeed in/by/on/as the River 

PS: UnbornTao wouldn't be UnbornTao if yours truly wouldn't get a snarky comment on his blasphemy, so...  and Namaste!

PS PS: Leo, having read Reductionism from you quite a lot quite lately.... How about replacing that with Essentialism, and coming home? See you there! And then, from "there", the exploration of the Infinity of Infinities is a celebration, being & feeling at home wherever possibly one seemingly goes.

Edited 6 hours ago by Water by the River

[ThomasT]

Very interested in participating, the thought of something more potent than 5meo is mind boggling in and of itself. Looking forward to the announcement. 

[emil1234]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

That which is truly aware doesn't come and go. Sometimes "it" has nothing to be aware of. 

 

This is my experience as well, and from this perspective; consciousness would still be absolute? The nature of consciousness is simply such that, if it has nothing to be aware of, its not aware of its own existence.

so "nothingness" is still consciousness, just without content

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, emil1234 said:

This is my experience as well, and from this perspective; consciousness would still be absolute? The nature of consciousness is simply such that, if it has nothing to be aware of, its not aware of its own existence.

so "nothingness" is still consciousness, just without content

What would be aware of the absence of consciousness? Consciousness or awareness. 

And here one runs into the singularity of the Absolute where all words and pointers fail.

What is always right here right now? Necessarily  so? How could THAT not be the case?

And at the same time THAT is so empty that it kills any remaining individuality or separate self arisings/contractions. Including the alien.

What we normally call consciousness is a self reflective type of consciousness, an arising. Temporary. Illusion. And that can already be Nondual, or a nondual alien, yet identified with it. The Absolute is utterly utterly empty. The psychedelic version of it is not.

The end of the game is sayonara to any type of center, lense, individuality or separation. The Absolute is so fundamental it can’t turn around and see itself. The alien can. Hence alien consciousness. And not clap of the one hand.

Clapping the Alien with the One Hand by the River

Edited 5 hours ago by Water by the River

[emil1234]

14 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

What would be aware of the absence of consciousness? Consciousness or awareness. 

And here one runs into the singularity of the Absolute where all words and pointers fail.

What is always right here right now? Necessarily  so? How could THAT not be the case?

And at the same time THAT is so empty that it kills any remaining individuality or separate self arisings/contractions. Including the alien.

What we normally call consciousness is a self reflective type of consciousness, an arising. Temporary. Illusion. And that can already be Nondual, or a nondual alien, yet identified with it. The Absolute is utterly utterly empty. The psychedelic version of it is not.

The end of the game is sayonara to any type of centre , lense, individuality or separation. The Absolute is so fundamental it can’t turn around and see itself. The alien can. Hence alien consciousness. And not clap of the one hand.

Clapping the Alien with the One Hand by the River

fascinating. how long was your journey to full enlightenment?

 

[UnbornTao]

[Leo Gura]

@zurew @UnbornTao @Water by the River

You three do not have the intelligence to understand what I am saying. So I will not bother explaining it to you any further.

[UnbornTao]

31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@zurew @UnbornTao @Water by the River

You three do not have the intelligence to understand what I am saying. So I will not bother explaining it to you any further.

But but but... Ramana!

Won't somebody please think of Ramana?

In all seriousness, though - tackle some of the arguments. For instance, would he lose his consciousness if his brain were messed up?

You conveniently circumvent some of these questions. It'd be too discouraging and painful to admit your wrongness, as far as the 'direct' aspect of the discussion goes.

Edited 3 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Davino]

The misunderstanding is equating the horizontal dimension of spirituality with the vertical.

There are ever-present truths, consciousness of existence or pure presence. Somehow you're fixated with that and think spirituality is limited to that.

Explore the horizontal dimension and the vertical. Limiting yourself to any of those will suffocate your development, do both and more.

In the vertical Awakening you'll discover that consciousness can go on forever, you become so conscious that you can hack yourself out of the Human dream and Universe, till eventually your consciousness breaks free from all limitation and becomes Infinite, total and Sovereign. If you dare to go on, increasing in consciousness shall you realise yourself to be the One, the Only, the Almighty God. This Infinite Universal Mind Field metamorphoses into all possible realities and sensations.

Yes this boundless consciousness field always 'is' says the horizontally awakened, independent of the phenomena it always is.

Yet you have never broken free of limitations, you're trapped inside a rat movie abiding in the ever-present nature of the screen. Says the vertically awakened.

But when you fall from the grace peak as you must, you are a rat like me and even more you get lost deeper in the dream as you cannot hold to the ever-present field when limitation comes. Says the horizontally awakened.

 

 

Do you grasp this dynamic? This one insight gave me so much clarity in my path. Really grasp it: make the effort to contemplate what is being said, this can save you years of work. This perfectly explains the dynamic happening here. It also explains what meditation is useful for and what psychedelics are useful for