AION

There is no pride in being poor

89 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, AION said:

Discipline is king.

Useless without ambition.

You're gonna be disciplined flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Quote

Ambition is fleeting.

No. Ambition is a personality trait. It doesn't change.

Ambition is the #1 factor in all success. Nothing can replace it.

The one thing all mega-successful humans have is ambition baked into their bones. You can't even imagine this level of ambition.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Leo Gura Would you say that Buddha was ambitious?

I mean this one is tricky right? Does it take ambition to just sit for crazy ammounts of time?

I don't know the answer tbh. I think it takes more crazy ammounts of  bravery and character than ambition.

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@Eskilon He was extremely ambitious 


 "Unburdened and Becoming" - Bon Iver

                            ◭"89"

                  

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To transcend all suffering requires insane ambition.

That's why no one does it.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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Posted (edited)

@Eskilon He didn't just sit though. He explored around, observed people, tried different techniques and created a system of understanding suffering which considered both the individual and the collective. The four noble truths and the 8 fold path is really a system of healing and living well. It's really the foundation of a good philosophy of living... Not just transcending suffering. No one had done this before, as I understand and that is why it is such a profound teaching. Leo loves to shit on Buddhism but it's foundational to living a good life.

What I personally don't like about Buddhism is when people get stuck on it, become a Buddhist, start dressing like a monk which is so dumb... and take shallow understanding of the teaching without going more meta, and studying other systems too.  Being a buddhist is dumb. But, the heart of buddha's teachings are profound.

He essentially embarked on a philosophical spiritual and inner scientific endeavor like no one had ever done which required an extreme and rare ambition. To create your own spiritual path is rare that is grounded and as clean as it is... That is why he is still remembered, or believed to has existed today and the idea of his life and teachings touch millions of people. 

To not only become an "awakened one" within Buddhist idealogy, but to then teach and share that for over 40 years is ambition. 

I personally think it's wise to take the 8 fold path as a basic skeleton for all of self help.... but that is just me.

Edited by Thought Art

 "Unburdened and Becoming" - Bon Iver

                            ◭"89"

                  

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Ambition without discipline is just daydreaming. Discipline without ambition is hamster-wheel living. Motivation without either is just a sugar high.

 


In stercore invenitur 💩 

 

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8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

To transcend all suffering requires insane ambition.

That's why no one does it.

Ambition is for recognition as purpose is for realization.

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Technology use is part of what defines us as a species, which goes all the way back. You have to be extremely cynical to even consider technological advancement as a net-zero for humanity. There are downsides, but there are way more upsides. The standard of living is so high right now.

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, Basman said:

Technology use is part of what defines us as a species, which goes all the way back. You have to be extremely cynical to even consider technological advancement as a net-zero for humanity. There are downsides, but there are way more upsides. The standard of living is so high right now.

It's not just about material standard of living, it's about education. You can't have education without technology.

Actualized.org is technology. Which is why teachings like this did not and could not exist even 100 years ago, nevermind 1000 or 5000 years ago.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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Another reason I want to earn more is because I want to be able to afford the top tier AI. Currently I’m not able to put aside 400 usd. This is still a lot of money but I think AI will become more expensive in the future when companies find out it is useful and start using it on mass. 


In stercore invenitur 💩 

 

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Basman said:

Technology use is part of what defines us as a species, which goes all the way back. You have to be extremely cynical to even consider technological advancement as a net-zero for humanity. There are downsides, but there are way more upsides. The standard of living is so high right now.

Standard, meaning typical right? The typical lifestyle right now? What would you give as example of the typical lifestyle right now?

 

Could you explain the meaningful difference between your example and this uncontacted tribe?

 

Obviously difference in materialism, but is there a difference in the meaningfulness the two examples have in terms of say purpose or the meaningfulness of their life, joy, communion, connection, love?

What is the ultimate goal you have for technology?

Edited by Elliott

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59 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Obviously difference in materialism, but is there a difference in the meaningfulness the two examples have in terms of say purpose or the meaningfulness of their life, joy, communion, connection?

Meaning is a projection of the mind. As a tribesman, you have very little individuality and the tribe equips you with all meaning. This is also fundamentally true of modern societies, but you have way more wiggle room as an individual as the scale of society expanded.

But there is something to be said about the meaninglessness of modern society. We live in a highly material society which has rejected the religious spirituality of the past, but didn't replace that with anything beyond a vague pursuit of happiness. It is one of the downsides of stage orange and likely an aspect which will exhaust the population of it. People are missing meaning in their life. The other day, I learn of a violent prank called the "Blue Whale" which are a series of challenges which illicit young people to partake in a series of increasingly violent forms of self-harm, culminating in suicide. I can easily imagine young and very lost people being drawn to something like that just because it gives them a purpose. But it is not the case that modernity is exclusively meaningless, you just have too be more proactive about it. There are plenty of examples of people who live meaningful lives today.

Arguably humans are adapted for tribal life. So we would naturally "slot in" to that kind of lifestyle and easily find meaning in our lives. But you can't compare modernity to tribal life without acknowledging that being a hunter-gatherer was an extremely hard life with very little room for self-dignity. Modern life is the current peak of humanism in comparison. There is no denying it. It is not possible to find a better time alive to be "useless" and have self-dignity, or the best you can get at least, be it as gay, elderly, sick or as a child. In a tribe, the elderly and children are particularly vulnerable. Child mortality is high and the elderly are often killed or left for dead if they can't up. There's an account of an Acho man who used to sneak up to older aunts and kill them with an axe. And he was proud of it too. Greenland, whose culture is closely rooted to a stone-age culture due to being a nomadic hunter-gatherer society up until colonization only a few hundred years, tend to see children as somewhat disposable, with sexual abuse of children being rampant (about every third child). In part due to the liberal tradition being less rooted in their culture as well as other factors like rampant alcoholism. That is not to say that modern society doesn't have any evils of its own, like pollution (I would be tempted to say war too, but that would actually not be accurate. Relatively, we live in the most peaceful era of human history). 

There also the factor of depth. The meaning you would find being a tribesman is obvious and immediately enrapturing, but it is also limited by how harsh life is. Most of your thoughts go to "food" and "danger". Compared to modernity, you can create and discover incredible purpose and meaning that can change other people's lives. Just look at any great musician or philosopher. It's like, would you rather have the tastes and hobbies of a dog or a wine connoisseur? The latter is easily pleased, but doesn't enjoy nearly the same depth.

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

What is the ultimate goal you have for technology?

Technology is just an extension of natural means through ingenuity and generational knowledge. Humans have always used technology to survive better and to better themselves. Because it improves our survival it contributes significantly to the development of our consciousness overall.

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Posted (edited)

55 minutes ago, Basman said:

Meaning is a projection of the mind. As a tribesman, you have very little individuality and the tribe equips you with all meaning. This is also fundamentally true of modern societies, but you have way more wiggle room as an individual as the scale of society expanded.

But there is something to be said about the meaninglessness of modern society. We live in a highly material society which has rejected the religious spirituality of the past, but didn't replace that with anything beyond a vague pursuit of happiness. It is one of the downsides of stage orange and likely an aspect which will exhaust the population of it. People are missing meaning in their life. The other day, I learn of a violent prank called the "Blue Whale" which are a series of challenges which illicit young people to partake in a series of increasingly violent forms of self-harm, culminating in suicide. I can easily imagine young and very lost people being drawn to something like that just because it gives them a purpose. But it is not the case that modernity is exclusively meaningless, you just have too be more proactive about it. There are plenty of examples of people who live meaningful lives today.

Arguably humans are adapted for tribal life. So we would naturally "slot in" to that kind of lifestyle and easily find meaning in our lives. But you can't compare modernity to tribal life without acknowledging that being a hunter-gatherer was an extremely hard life with very little room for self-dignity. Modern life is the current peak of humanism in comparison. There is no denying it. It is not possible to find a better time alive to be "useless" and have self-dignity, or the best you can get at least, be it as gay, elderly, sick or as a child. In a tribe, the elderly and children are particularly vulnerable. Child mortality is high and the elderly are often killed or left for dead if they can't up. There's an account of an Acho man who used to sneak up to older aunts and kill them with an axe. And he was proud of it too. Greenland, whose culture is closely rooted to a stone-age culture due to being a nomadic hunter-gatherer society up until colonization only a few hundred years, tend to see children as somewhat disposable, with sexual abuse of children being rampant (about every third child). In part due to the liberal tradition being less rooted in their culture as well as other factors like rampant alcoholism. That is not to say that modern society doesn't have any evils of its own, like pollution (I would be tempted to say war too, but that would actually not be accurate. Relatively, we live in the most peaceful era of human history). 

There also the factor of depth. The meaning you would find being a tribesman is obvious and immediately enrapturing, but it is also limited by how harsh life is. Most of your thoughts go to "food" and "danger". Compared to modernity, you can create and discover incredible purpose and meaning that can change other people's lives. Just look at any great musician or philosopher. It's like, would you rather have the tastes and hobbies of a dog or a wine connoisseur? The latter is easily pleased, but doesn't enjoy nearly the same depth.

Technology is just an extension of natural means through ingenuity and generational knowledge. Humans have always used technology to survive better and to better themselves. Because it improves our survival it contributes significantly to the development of our consciousness overall.

I don't compare ancient people to dogs.

Look at those people's individualistic decorations and piercings.

Have you seen the Mayan or Egyptian artifacts? Sumeria?

 

 

The Maxims of Ptahhotep

Ptahhotep, a vizier under King Djedkare Isesi of the Fifth Dynasty (around 2375–2350 BC). 

"Humility and Self-Control: Emphasizing the importance of not being proud and controlling one's temper.

Truth and Discourse: Advising on how to speak truthfully and engage in respectful conversation, even with those of lower status.

Social Conduct: Providing guidance on behavior in the presence of superiors, how to choose a good master, and how to serve them.

Kindness and Compassion: Promoting kindness towards others and avoiding envy or the spread of fear.

Leadership: Offering insights into how to lead with openness and kindness.

 

"Pythagoras's philosophy emphasizes the significance of numbers, the immortality of the soul, and the interconnectedness of all things, influencing both mathematics and metaphysical thought.

Overview of Pythagorean Philosophy

Pythagoras (c. 570–495 BCE) "

 

"The practice of mound building spans from the Archaic period (around 3500 BCE) through the Woodland and into the Mississippian period (up to the 16th century CE)."

American Mound Builders, specifically the Hopewell culture, designed earthworks to track the 18.6-year lunar cycle, a complex astronomical event called the Major Lunar Standstill."

The original Newark Earthworks complex covered over 4 1/2 square miles, or approximately 3,000 acres (1,200 ha)"

 

Pictured Below, Figurine is 43,000 years old, painting is 33,000, the grass photo is the previously mentioned lunar mound in the U.S.

 

VenusHohlefels2.jpg

Rhinos_Chauvet_Cave.jpg

R.jpeg

Edited by Elliott

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43 minutes ago, Elliott said:

I don't compare ancient people to dogs.

Look at those people's individualistic decorations and piercings.

Have you seen the Mayan or Egyptian artifacts? Sumeria?

 

 

The Maxims of Ptahhotep

Ptahhotep, a vizier under King Djedkare Isesi of the Fifth Dynasty (around 2375–2350 BC). 

"Humility and Self-Control: Emphasizing the importance of not being proud and controlling one's temper.

Truth and Discourse: Advising on how to speak truthfully and engage in respectful conversation, even with those of lower status.

Social Conduct: Providing guidance on behavior in the presence of superiors, how to choose a good master, and how to serve them.

Kindness and Compassion: Promoting kindness towards others and avoiding envy or the spread of fear.

Leadership: Offering insights into how to lead with openness and kindness.

 

"Pythagoras's philosophy emphasizes the significance of numbers, the immortality of the soul, and the interconnectedness of all things, influencing both mathematics and metaphysical thought.

Overview of Pythagorean Philosophy

Pythagoras (c. 570–495 BCE) "

 

"The practice of mound building spans from the Archaic period (around 3500 BCE) through the Woodland and into the Mississippian period (up to the 16th century CE)."

American Mound Builders, specifically the Hopewell culture, designed earthworks to track the 18.6-year lunar cycle, a complex astronomical event called the Major Lunar Standstill."

The original Newark Earthworks complex covered over 4 1/2 square miles, or approximately 3,000 acres (1,200 ha)"

 

Pictured Below, Figurine is 43,000 years old, painting is 33,000, the grass photo is the previously mentioned lunar mound in the U.S.

 

VenusHohlefels2.jpg

Rhinos_Chauvet_Cave.jpg

R.jpeg

I was talking about hunter-gatherer tribes. Not ancient civilizations. 

Ancient world art are products of technology.

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Basman said:

I was talking about hunter-gatherer tribes. Not ancient civilizations. 

Ancient world art are products of technology.

I'm only using their art to show their creativity, expression, and individualism. The artifact and painting were hunter gatherers.

You essentially say people enjoy things more, have more depth of meaning. Consider a tribe watching the stars, meteors, northern lights, sunsets and rises, a storm, a long winter, a fruitfull season, a good hunt, finding new territory, seeing a new mountain range the first time, a new land, new animals and foods, seeing the ocean for the first time, or a massive forest, imagine the forests back then, new tribes, new technologies and tools, foods and cultures, wars and battles, being raided, raiding, rituals and gatherings, psychedelics, new arts and crafts, droughts, living intimately with all this, knowing your life is in your brothers hand and his in yours,....

What philosopher in the last 1,000 years compares to Pythagoras? What artist compares to Cambodian ruins? Does the modern family that doesn't speak to eachother, love eachother more than the tribe loves their people? The somelier enjoy their wine more than the tribe enjoys an exotic species from their hunt, their sons first kill? Pick your modern philosopher, they have more depth of meaning?

44,000, 5,000, 2,000 years to today, whatever you want: what meaningful difference in terms of the human experience like meaning and connection is there from technology?

What's a truly meaningful thing technology has done?

 

Different video

 

Are you sure we have more depth of joy and meaning?

Edited by Elliott

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11 hours ago, Elliott said:

You essentially say people enjoy things more, have more depth of meaning. Consider a tribe watching the stars, meteors, northern lights, sunsets and rises, a storm, a long winter, a fruitfull season, a good hunt, finding new territory, seeing a new mountain range the first time, a new land, new animals and foods, seeing the ocean for the first time, or a massive forest, imagine the forests back then, new tribes, new technologies and tools, foods and cultures, wars and battles, being raided, raiding, rituals and gatherings, psychedelics, new arts and crafts, droughts, living intimately with all this, knowing your life is in your brothers hand and his in yours,....

The question is, why do you need to be spoon fed meaning by your externals? I understand the fascination with tribal life. I too think being part of tribe would naturally lead to a lot of happiness because it is the environment humans are adapted for. But it isn't utopic, your are ruled by your environment to a much greater degree and therefor you have much less capacity to live virtuously. 

You can do all of this things that you listed today. What is stopping you?

11 hours ago, Elliott said:

What's a truly meaningful thing technology has done?

Tribal people are using technology and have been from the very start. This is ridiculous. 

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Basman said:

The question is, why do you need to be spoon fed meaning by your externals? I understand the fascination with tribal life. I too think being part of tribe would naturally lead to a lot of happiness because it is the environment humans are adapted for. But it isn't utopic, your are ruled by your environment to a much greater degree and therefor you have much less capacity to live virtuously. 

You can do all of this things that you listed today. What is stopping you?

My position isn't that it's better, but that it's not worse. I thought you were arguing that technology has made life meaningfully better. Is the " greater capacity to live virtuously" from technology?

Quote

Tribal people are using technology and have been from the very start. This is ridiculous. 

So, infant mortality rate, medicine, air conditioning, airplanes, weapons for police, grocery stores,  books; that's how it's made the human experience meaningfully better, this created a "greater capacity to live virtuously"? Jordan Peterson is more virtuous? Taylor Swift?  Zizek? Peterson is less virtuous in my opinion.

I don't think it has given a greater capacity to live virtuously. And, are only the modern philosopher and artist more virtuous, or is my 300 pound porn addicted walmart cashier as well? Politicians? Pop icons? Is even the Pope more virtuous? I don't think so.

These people have freedom in different ways, they can easily start their very own nation even, breaking off from their tribe, which some do. Would you imagine talking to these tribesman, or a modern man, would have more depth? If you could speak their language.

 

Different video

 

 

Edited by Elliott

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Posted (edited)

But it is just by being yourself, it matters not if you are rich or poor. Have pride in just being your unique individual self. Pride has nothing to do with fame or fortune or power.

Edited by Jehovah increases

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Wow, insane episode. It really strikes at the heart  of the topic  

 

 

 


In stercore invenitur 💩 

 

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2 hours ago, Elliott said:

I don't think it has given a greater capacity to live virtuously. And, are only the modern philosopher and artist more virtuous, or is my 300 pound porn addicted walmart cashier as well? Politicians? Pop icons? Is even the Pope more virtuous? I don't think so.

Technology doesn't automatically make you live more morally but it does increase your freedom to do so. It's not trivial to have the agency to alleviate survival challenges. Child mortality, murder, rape, etc. aren't moral issues in a tribal society because they don't have the capacity to avoid them. Most hunter-gatherer tribes are restrained by base survival and group conformity. In that sense they have less capacity for moral development.

It's really fucking hard to be a hunter-gatherer comparatively. You could become one today if you really wanted to, but you would have to be crazy to do that. And even then, you'd be hard pressed to not rely on modern tools like guns and clothing, which proves why technology is so significant.

Even the humble spear was a revolutionary technology at the time that changed which reshaped ecological systems. The spear has been instrumental to the extinction of hundreds of species, millions of deaths and the proliferation of humans across the globe at large. That is what one invention did for humanity. But when modern humans invent technology it doesn't count?

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