Scholar

Dumbfounding bigotry of the Progressives

54 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, Scholar said:

None of this is myopic.

It is myopic when you consider the realities and imperfection of politics.

Reality is, you decriminalize drugs and your child will start shooting up heroin. And none of your leftist ideals will help him.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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2 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

You are wrong here Leo. If someone is at stage green development-wise, that person even if he is the last person on earth, will have the stage green worldview regardless of their environment. 

A stage green person in Russia is opposing the Ukraine war even though he doesn't have access to WWW internet and all he can access is state sponsored propaganda.

I'll give me as an example, all my family and all the people I know are the equivalent of MAGA. Maybe even more nationalist and fascist than MAGA. Literally I never meet in real life a person that has my political worldview. All the media I encounter when I open the tv is right wing propaganda. 

On twitter everyone I follow on politics has tons of comments that are pro right wing, I never consume any leftist content on YouTube. Yet I'm a liberal centrist, why am I not MAGA if everyone around me is MAGA? Don't you think I'm tired of always being 1 vs 10 against me in every political debate I have IRL? 

Acussing us of group think is a bit of an exaggeration on your side Leo. 


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3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is myopic when you consider the realities and imperfection of politics.

Reality is, you decriminalize drugs and your child will start shooting up heroin. And none of your leftist ideals will help him.

But nothing about this has to do with imperfections of politics. Even with no other policy, criminalizing use itself is unjusfitfiable and a harm-multiplier in every regard.

 

I never said decriminalize drugs. I said decriminalize the use itself. This has several important effects:

1. You don't have individuals fear criminal persecution upon medical emergency.

2. You don't produce further criminals through forcing them into prison environments.

3. Addicts are more likely to seek social help and join addiction recovery programs.

 

Criminalizing use is unjustified because it targets the victims of the crime. If your child starts shooting up heroin, you don't want them to go to prison and become part of organized crime.

None of your reactionary ideals will help him either, because evidence shows that criminalization of use itself in the US worsen health and social outcomes. You can flaily around as long as you want and cry about the myopic leftists, the data is clear on this.

 

You just use one extreme example on the other side to somehow validate the most umempathetic and reactionary version of drug regulation.

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1 hour ago, Scholar said:

You don't have individuals fear criminal persecution

But that is a huge aspect of deterrence!

FEAR is the point!

I dare you to try drug use in China. See how that goes for ya.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But that is a huge aspect of deterrence!

FEAR is the point!

I dare you to try drug use in China. See how that goes for ya.

Drug use in China is rampant, mental illness in China is rampant. Don't delude yourself that they have a better system than even the US do. China is utter chaos.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter what China does. We have studies showing that deterrence in this respect (criminalizing usage) is not effective. Criminalization seems to increase deaths from overdose and usage according to the data I saw.

 

And morality is important here. Even if there was a marginal gain in harm reduction, this doesn't justify the morally abhorrent reality of imprisoning individuals for their addiction. This is simply evil.

Edited by Scholar

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2 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

Socialism is stupid, but a little welfare as we have here in Europe ain't no socialism and is a smart goal the leftists should pursue to have in America as we have here in Europe.

The European welfare society is comfortable and friendly, but it produces soft, unmotivated individuals. This might not be a problem if we didn't live in a competitive world with many billion of poor people who want to be rich, and who lurk behind you to claim their legitimate right to be where you are by virtue of their aggressiveness, ambition, and determination. So, perhaps the welfare society will take you to where they are, in misery. Just a possibility. 

Edited by Breakingthewall

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2 hours ago, Scholar said:

We have studies showing that deterrence in this respect (criminalizing usage) is not effective.

We have Oregon. Which shows you that leftist ideas are delusion. Oregon is the most leftist state in America. And they devolved into a drug den.

You can wax philosophical all you want but in Oregon your kid will end up a druggie.

Face the facts. Leftists done fucked it up. Stop blaming others and take responsibility for it.

Edited by Leo Gura

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5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Face the facts. Leftists done fucked it up. Stop blaming others and take responsibility for it.

Alright Leo. Having had a brother grow up taking opioids for 20 years, fear did nothing. You have no idea what you are talking about, because heroin > everything. Once you start taking it you could threaten to do anything to that user. I've seen him beaten with bats, steal from his parents, do anything in response.

Criminilizing someone doing heroin does absolutely nothing other than reduce (and also increase) petty crime, because its rife in prisons.

It reduces it because you take the cause of the crime off the streets. It increases it because that user is doing crime to support his habit, instead of being able to come out and seek help without fear of being locked up. It also increases it because locking someone up puts them around criminals.

Targeting the user is backwards. Be tough on drugs, i'm all for it, but its like kicking an injured man or woman in the shins. I'm not saying put drugs on sale or make them easier to get. I keep saying make them incredibly difficult to get, and even weaponise the addicts against dealers on mass.

 

Edited by BlueOak

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8 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Having had a brother grow up taking opioids for 20 years, fear did nothing.

Dude, you can't make policy decisions based on one personal anecdote.

Think!

Oregon decriminalized and it turned to hell.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude, you can't make policy decisions based on one personal anecdote.

Think!

Oregon decriminalized and it turned to hell.

If it decriminlized supply in a single area.  Of course it will. But I am not arguing that: You are trying to rationalise an irrational state and apply fear to it.

I’ve seen, met and heard of many people from that life. All my personal experience gave me was experience and focus. There is no amount of fear that will work against a long time heroin user. No amount of loss. Prison doesn’t either, as drugs are rife in prison If you catch them early enough, maybe. I did meet a friend of his who got out of it early and heard about others.

I couldn't tell you what the breaking point is, the bottom for a long-time user, I don't think there is one. Its just random luck and random variables. In this small village there was recently a chain of events, overdose – relapse/suicide – murder - suicide, that left four people dead. It's like a constant wound in that person; it doesn’t go away.

You can rationalise the supply and production being criminalised, the sale, because that’s a business and it's one that is responsible for a great deal of misery and suffering for money.

What you are trying to put fear over is the method someone has chosen to avoid their own personal trauma a lot of the time. Which is essentially a small childish part of themselves. So tell me does locking that up help society? That's the only point to argue at the end of it.

If they are not stealing to support it: You might as well lock me up for comfort eating and disappearing into fantasy worlds. My brother just chose a much more difficult painful path to deal with things, and ultimately we both ended up in similar places in life. - Though I would argue, we are different people as a result of me dealing with my past and him avoiding it.
 

Edited by BlueOak

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1 minute ago, BlueOak said:

There is no amount of fear that will work against a long time heroin user. 

Of course not against an addict.

The issue is ease of access to newbies. Decriminalizing makes access too easy so fools try it and addicts increase 100x.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course not against an addict.

The issue is ease of access to newbies. Decriminalizing makes access too easy so fools try it and addicts increase 100x.

The sale yes. Especially in one area out of 50. Everyone would move there. It would be novel, and perhaps even become a social norm because of these factors. Amsterdam, for example. Or Hamsterdam if you've seen the wire, legalising drugs in one small area makes it hell. Spoilers obviously., A show that anyone who wants to understand this specific issue, framed this way, more deeply can watch.
 



The use, even if this is our only consideration in what I've just talked about. It's not nearly as clear-cut.

1) Kids' natural rebellion. They do things that are illegal.
2) We are giving power to criminals. Rather than the authorities. The more illegal we make something, the more illegal power exists to take the place of legal influence. This creates a counter authority.
3) Addicts don't come forward to get help because of the threat of jail and stigma attached. - My brother actually does better when people think he's clean. He gets a job he can hold down, he gets a girl etc, is more likely to stay on the prescribed opioids until they run the dose down too low.
4) But again, you make taking out the actual rational half of this equation harder. Nailing the dealers, and burning the suppliers/producers. - There is no point to doing anything if this isn't the end goal. Locking up damaged people for picking their wounds over does nothing.

Try to picture psychological or emotional wounds as serious as physical ones and apply the same principles of how to deal with them. It will lead to a better world.

Would you still call me a lefty if I said America should keep a ship or two off the coast of Venezuela, and, when they know for certain it's a narcotics boat, sink it? Seems a good use of the military for once.

Edited by BlueOak

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The intolerance of progressives is that they can't tolerate reality contradicting their ideals.

The essential thing is to maintain their moral superiority. If the facts later contradict their versions, they cover their ears and shout: "Lalalalalala!" Because what matters here is that they are good and others are bad. They are like narcissistic teenagers

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44 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

If the facts later contradict their versions, they cover their ears and shout: "Lalalalalala!"

They shout:

Capitalists! Liberals! American Empire!


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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2 hours ago, BlueOak said:

But again, you make taking out the actual rational half of this equation harder. Nailing the dealers, and burning the suppliers/producers. -

But if the demand exists, why wouldn't supply? Supply follows demand.

Also, it's quite hypocritical to demonize the dealers but not the consumers. Takes two to fuck.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They shout:

Capitalists! Liberals! American Empire!

And the conservatives answer: wokism! 2030 agenda! Bill gates is the antichrist!!!!!

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Legalization tends to increase demand. Prostitution is a clear example of this, where legalizing the trade increases the flow of human trafficking victims due to the increase of scale. It's quiet the problem in Germany, who legalized the trade.

The main concern with incest is the potential for abuse, especially of minors, and inbreeding. I'm not sure what would be the correct approach. If otherwise legally consenting people are blood related and as long as they don't reproduce, then I don't really see what the issue is inherently. It would be quiet arbitrary to penalize such couples legally if they are not hurting anyone. 

Edited by Basman

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36 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But if the demand exists, why wouldn't supply? Supply follows demand.

Also, it's quite hypocritical to demonize the dealers but not the consumers. Takes two to fuck.

I do not think you have had any experience with serious addiction. People with serious addictions do not operate like normal individuals - their entire being is erased and supplanted with 'seek drugs to avoid pain of withdrawal'. Punishment, hard words and lectures around personal responsibility do not work, as to them, it is tantamount to saying 'just stop eating food'. Serious addicts have brains that have been totally altered and need a different system to assist them. As opposed to say - you or I, who are functional adults. Once the addiction has set in, their personality as you knew it is replaced by something else. 

My experience living with serious addicts. Associating with them and living in a suburb with Chinese triads. The largest heroin and ice centre for dealing in Melbourne. I implore you to consider that you might not fully understand the topic of addiction and its pathologies. These peoples brains have been permanently altered.

Using is not a crime here (Australia) - but dealing and distributing is. I think decriminalizing use in the US is sensible - will relieve a lot of the stress on your systems. Prisons, taxes, and the criminal system in general. Resources could be diverted. I think dealing and distribution should remain a criminal act.

Editing to add - I used to be more aligned with your opinions here - until I had personal experience.

Edited by Natasha Tori Maru

Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I do not think you have had any experience with serious addiction. People with serious addictions do not operate like normal individuals - their entire being is erased and supplanted with 'seek drugs to avoid pain of withdrawal'. Punishment, hard words and lectures around personal responsibility do not work, as to them, it is tantamount to saying 'just stop eating food'.

Of course I know that!

The point is to stop newbies from getting on the heroin train.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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36 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course I know that!

The point is to stop newbies from getting on the heroin train.

I see, I see.

I suppose then it would become:

What proportion of the population that is open to trying them, would be dissuaded by using being criminal? Compared to the stress on systems that society must maintain to process them in incarceration. There will always be those who are open and curious and seek drugs as an experience. Making it a crime will not stop them. Maybe a half measure would be decriminalization of use for some classes of drugs.

Edited by Natasha Tori Maru

Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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