PurpleTree

Sitting on benches and under trees

159 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Regardless of if the boy understood the action and consequences - did the boy not start smoking cigarettes himself? He purchased or obtained them, lit the cigarette and smoked it. 

If there are permanent neural changes, these may generate impulses. But the self still decided to take up the smoking.

Who else did that? 

Yes the self did that- but it doesn’t say much about what made the self do that, if it’s a conscious and autonomous decision or not

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1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:


I think most of the advice some of you guys give is a "trap" so to speak. Not out of ill will but just because. And not everyone is in a process. Only the "me" is in process you know what i mean. There’s no time and no process. Jim Newman isn’t in process he just is. Timeless. Isness. Yolo huhu.

Feel free to go into this. 

Perhaps you mean it can be misunderstood? 

But just judging without presenting an argument is sort of empty, no? 


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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Just now, Sugarcoat said:

Yes the self did that- but it doesn’t say much about what made the self do that, if it’s a conscious and autonomous decision or not

There would be an implication something else is present to exert it's will on us? 

Do you think unconscious behaviour is not originating from 'self'? Not saying yes or no either way 


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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5 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I think in another thread you said you actually don’t want to get liberated. So then it would make sense to listen to that stuff. Otherwise not much bruv.

 

It shifts for me

What are you grounding your assumption of that it doesn’t work on?

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Just now, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There would be an implication something else is present to exert it's will on us? 

Do you think unconscious behaviour is not originating from 'self'? Not saying yes or no either way 

You could say the self is the very programming and brain wiring too, so even if the boy got programmed to think smoking is cool and is wired to try to fit in the tribe socially, you could still say he made that decision so yes in that sense I agree. But it’s like the self is not this independent entity with choice it’s a collection of the biology, conditioning etc.

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2 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

You could say the self is the very programming and brain wiring too, so even if the boy got programmed to think smoking is cool and is wired to try to fit in the tribe socially, you could still say he made that decision so yes in that sense I agree. But it’s like the self is not this independent entity with choice it’s a collection of the biology, conditioning etc.

So do we think we are the body?


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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Just now, Natasha Tori Maru said:

So do we think we are the body?

The brain maybe…

But the body can affect our choices in for example if we put our hand on a hot stove we will reflexively pull away. So the choice that the self has can be what the body/brain is wired for in some instances

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39 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Nah man. That’s like first grade spirituality. We are advanced and stuff.

20 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I’m sorry but this kind of

Who am i?

Who’s thinking that?

Toddler-ish so to speak

That was like cool 5 years ago. We are off to bigger and better things

Like Jim Newman hihi 

I wouldn't be so quick to presume that. It's probably coming from some form of hearsay, and it's likely just conceptual.

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7 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

The brain maybe…

But the body can affect our choices in for example if we put our hand on a hot stove we will reflexively pull away. So the choice that the self has can be what the body/brain is wired for in some instances

The reflexes and brain are for certain the body (to me, anyway).

If a reflex a choice though? 


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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Just now, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The reflexes and brain are for certain the body (to me, anyway).

 

Maybe you could cut out certain pieces of the brain and show it to someone and they wouldn’t identify with it so yea maybe we don’t identity with brain, but it could be thought so because we feel located somehow behind the eyes

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

 

If a reflex a choice though? 

Not really but with enough willpower and attention it has the potential to stop a reflex I’d say

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

That's good. I'd recommend you clarify your subject of contemplation so as to not get distracted or overly abstract. "Who am I?" is a good one to start with, and remeber that it isn't about simply reciting the words but about wanting to know, wondering about it. The formulation of the question is rather irrelevant, although it might help your mind focus on the matter. With such questioning, the basic instruction is: grasp you. Do that first, then move on to another subject.

 

👍🏻

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

 

Then again, stop thinking of self as something different or separate from you. When contemplating yourself, look for the very one doing the looking instead of a notion or some "self" hidden away behind the curtains, or some such metaphor. Really, throw out the crap you think you know about "self", it isn't useful and gets in the way. Pretend you know nothing - hey, this might turn out to be true. 

 

It seems the self has the odd quality that: we are it, while we are also aware of it… 

The self def doesn’t seem hidden from me lol. If I could tell you how big part of my life used to be about improving my self image

I think having the ability to set aside what you think you know can be useful yes…

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

 

Not personal nor done to disparage - I'm making the point that this is already our condition.

I see

😊

Edited by Sugarcoat

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11 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Me wiggling my feet while sitting happened automatically, etc .We say “we do it” because that’s what we call any action, it’s how we use language, but it doesn’t say everything about how the action arose

Its still my responsibility in the sense that I have the choice to stop those things 

I didn’t eat much so if I imagine pasta carbonara I can feel very subtle craving that wasn’t initially there

So yea maybe I was wrong I can indeed create desire. 

But in my experience it doesn’t go further than “subtle” 
 

Once again language, yea it’s mine but it doesn’t say everything about how the desire arose

If a boy starts smoking cigarettes at the age of 12 when he doesn’t know it’s addictive, gets severely addicted

When he’s an adult he decides he wants to stop. He uses his willpower and he practices spiritual practices to develop mindfulness of the addiction etc

Yet it still happens from time to time that  he  grabs cigarette.

I think it’s realistic to say it’s sometimes caused by “wiring of the reward pathway “ or something. 

It’s unrealistic to say the self causes all action imo 


Agree

I kinda explained my disagreements above so that connects to this

I like that idea. Like purifying the psyche, that has been a priority of mine over the years.

Ofc every topic one could go even deeper in…

OK - pretend you're a helpless victim of your experience and circumstances.

Imagine your role is that of a passive watcher: things just happen to you, and the only option available is to superficially manipulate yourself and events in order to fulfill your needs.

Everything feels imposed on you, and enduring it is pretty much all you can do.

Now, make it real.

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10 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

It seems the self has the odd quality that: we are it, while we are also aware of it… 

The self def doesn’t seem hidden from me lol. If I could tell you how big part of my life used to be about improving my self image

I think having the ability to set aside what you think you know can be useful yes…

Making that distinction requires grasping what being is. Until some headway is made on that front, it's not an "it." It's not just a part of you, or some object - it's you. So I'd invite you to start using "I" statements whenever you want to say things like "the self does this or that."

Pretty much everyone works on improving their self-image, in both subtle and obvious ways. My point relates to the sentence above: you think you know what the self is because you've intellectually turned it into "another," as something separate from you. But you need to grasp that you're really talking about yourself.

It's immensely powerful - and, most importantly, it has to be put into practice for it to make any difference in one's experience.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

OK - pretend you're a helpless victim of your experience and circumstances.

Imagine your role is that of a passive watcher: things just happen to you, and the only option available is to superficially manipulate yourself and events in order to fulfill your needs.

Everything feels imposed on you, and enduring it is pretty much all you can do.

Now, make it real.

We have just came to different conclusions from our observations.

My position doesn’t imply helplessness. We can use willpower, change our brain/mind etc

In my life when I have overcome things it hasn’t been “just stop generating that activity” it has been a more complex process. But nevertheless it has been successful (not saying it’s impossible to “just stop generating the activity, for example some advice about binge eating says : “just stop” and it works for some)

Im not super firm in what I say too so I could change my mind.

I don’t deny the role of the self completely I just see it intertwined with other factors beyond it

But I can def see how your mindset can feel empowering

Edited by Sugarcoat

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4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Making that distinction requires grasping what being is. Until some headway is made on that front, it's not an "it." It's not just a part of you, or some object - it's you. So I'd invite you to start using "I" statements whenever you want to say things like "the self does this or that."

Pretty much everyone works on improving their self-image, in both subtle and obvious ways. My point relates to the sentence above: you think you know what the self is because you've intellectually turned it into "another," as something separate from you. But you need to grasp that you're really talking about yourself.

It's immensely powerful - and, most importantly, it has to be put into practice for it to make any difference in one's experience.

I can’t deny the “being aware of myself” vs “being myself”. It seems both co exist. 

I don’t really know what the self is…just that it seems to not only be a thought (like some say)

 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Sugarcoat It was an exercise, did you do it?

It's meant to push you into your experience and have you see your role in it. 

-

We're all over the place now. Let's simplify it down to two subjects: the principle of responsibility, and finding oneself.

Short answers: become responsible for your experience, and grasp who you are. :D

The distinction I was referring to is between being and self. 

Okay, then I'd keep contemplating. But it's best to focus on a single subject. It can also be useful to revisit how we're holding the act of contemplating - it's more like an open, "silent" wondering.

Edited by UnbornTao

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat It was an exercise, did you do it?

It's meant to push you into your experience and have you see your role in it. 

-

 

Ok teacher …. 😂

You meant the part where you wrote about imagining being a helpless victim? When I read it I imagined it, but I see it as my position taken to an extreme- so it’s not the same as what I’m saying 

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat

-

We're all over the place now. Let's simplify it down to two subjects: the principle of responsibility, and finding oneself.

Short answers: become responsible for your experience, and grasp who you are. :D

 

I think it’s smart to try to become responsible for your experience to the extent you find you can, because it puts you in a better position to be able to change your experience into a better one

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat

The distinction I was referring to is between being and self. 

Okay, then I'd keep contemplating. But it's best to focus on a single subject. It can also be useful to revisit how we're holding the act of contemplating - it's more like an open, "silent" wondering.

How do you differentiate being and self? Isn’t the self a being (me), even if it maybe doesn’t actually exist?

I think I got the openness part down…(I’ll allow you to roll your eyes or whatever if you want)

Edited by Sugarcoat

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Posted (edited)

overarching modes

i go on these field trips alot in dreams, and iuno like, why im there, or where we are/or what we are suppose to be doing, but its like, either A) continuing off of these desires that existed, as sortve the foundation of the field trip, like what we initially want/why we are there, or B) devising the rules within a larger thing, but not really hung up on the rule-making, since much of a dream tends to be a lost in the who and where of it , and sometimes its like, a trip to the benches. im remembering a dream where we sat on benches (as well as lawn chairs), possibly at like a pseudo-beach/desert, that may have been in France or some country that looked very French, and that dissolved into something else, but i mean, like theres not alot of the same contention in a dream that is there in the reality of devising a way forward. its like, rearranging a large puzzle, versus crossing the rubicon by jumping on puzzle boxes. like, anything thats a finite sequence of devising, is just absent in a land so broad and open to anything—as its just sortve like, wandering around in a way that didnt initially feel like it was gonna be wandering around, or something. Theres like , two sides: one has a dream world leaking out on one half, and the other has a box/container with a label on it/identity, pulling pieces towards it, neither of which really compliment each other on the surface, as far as telling a story might be concerned, but we sortve need that something, in order to be something, and we can look at all that and think about it, but its just like two different worlds that never seem to have a clear picture. And thats how i feel about other things, like this contention between two different, overarching modes

... i could go on, but that sounds like a complete thing for now.

Edited by kavaris

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18 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

So do we think we are the body?

We are the karma whatever the forms it takes.

We can say that we are thoughts, that I smoke cigarettes because my mother didn't breastfeed me, because "dopamine neurons in the neostriatum"; all of that has no importance.


Nothing will prevent Willy.

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@Sugarcoat Earnestly doing the exercise can provide you with a new perspective.

Sure, what you said resonates. If a more gradual process helps, it's worth a shot.

By the way, owning your internal state and reactions doesn't mean you're responsible for everything that happens to you; it just means you're taking that stance toward life. Nor does it automatically mean you're suddenly aware of every aspect of your experience - your drives, motivations, fears, and so on.

Let's say there are two aspects to you: what you actually are - prior to all conceptual machinations, and what you've crafted throughout life and now take to be yourself.

Openness is a principle, too. Just to be clear, I wouldn't confuse the idea of openness - or identifying yourself as open - with what the principle demands.

Anyhow, throw all this out when contemplating, whatever the question.

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