Sitting on benches and under trees

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I don’t notice any auditorial thoughts when I perceive objects. Like if I look at my lamp I don’t think the word “lamp” unless I’m thinking about it in particular for some reason like “I need a new lamp”

Ah! 

Identifying an object does in fact, involve thought.

We follow on from the 'Lamp' example:

• Raw perception (pre-thought): Our senses just register shapes, colours, textures, edges. The light enters our eyes and our visual cortex processes patterns. Not so much thinking here, just raw data processing
• Pattern recognition (fast, unconscious thought): Here our brain is comparing data against a whole host of stored templates in memory. 'Bright, shiny, button, globe...probably a lamp' This will happen so quickly we do not notice it. But! It is still a cognitive operation - a background thought. We can begin to become aware of this thought - through meditation.
• Conceptual identification (conscious thought): If we actually label the object 'That is a lamp', or, if we distinguish it from similar things 'Not a ceiling light' that is where the thought proper kicks in - language, concepts, memory being applied.

Identifying is the bridge between perception and thought. 

The raw experience does not need thought, but as soon as you classify it or label it, thought is at play.

You can try this with meditation by staring at an object until you absolutely have no idea what you are looking at any longer.

It definitely seems you have caught the narrative overlay as a thought (or should we say, a thinking) identified 'I need a new lamp'

Incidentally - I actually do need a new lamp WTF @Carl-Richard

 

[theleelajoker]

10 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Funny that you understood 😆

Kudos to you for doing vipassana it sounds very hard!

That’s cool you were able to shut down that mechanism in the mind. Maybe you accessed something deeper in the bodily sensation by removing the mental barrier, like what Leo talked about in his video about “actuality”. The actuality of reality vs concept 

Yeah Vipassana - or better, the effects during and after - is something I could talk about for days non-stop. It's just so intense and different for me then anything else (except psycedelics). At times, it was super super trippy, super nice and super challenging and mind-breaking. 

Can't really take credit for doing it. It's like you said, can't choose your desires. And also, I had long breaks not doing it. So maybe can't choose your resistance and fears, too? 

What's interesting is that this "beyond mind" effect only happened like that first retreat 6 years ago. Never again reached that exact state, for whatever reason. I experienced other stuff, but never that again.

[theleelajoker]

10 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I like this! 

There is a pervasive dialogue that thoughts 'befall us' - oh! Woe is me, the thoughts come for me and befall me! 

(...) 

Practice. Meditate to become aware of the thoughts as first step. Put effort to change your thoughts and your brain will rewire to follow. 

If individuals have issue with this, and they have no actual physiological inhibitors (IE a real chemical issue in the brain they have a proper medical insight into, or physical difference) I implore you to meditate and become aware of the nature of your thoughts. 

They never come out of no where. We (so to speak hehe) do them.

 

@Natasha Tori Maru

I think I get what you're saying, and I agree. There are ways to change things, to reset the nervous system, to get more in the driver's seat, to create habits, to create agency etc. But also, sometimes it seemed to me that no matter what I did to facilitate this process, I was going nowhere.

That's why I appreciate that you point out the chemical part. Simple story, in the past I was in a depressive, passive, hopeless mood for quite a while. Set my intention to get out of it. Did a lot of the  thing in the book you might recommend someone in my position: I did sports, yoga, gym, swimming  5-6 times a week. Stopped drinking alcohol, coffee,  no more meat. Stopped any other drugs. Had a healthy sleep routine. Took long walk. Singing. Met friends and was going out. Went to a psychologist. Took time alone to meditate. Took time to just be there and be with my feelings.

And it all just felt like a drop in the ocean. I had little moments that felt ok, but they passed fast and overall nothing really changed.  Really sucked, and knowing that I do as much as I can and nothing changes is of course even more depressing.

At some point, I told myself "ok there's not much left trying...but maybe psycedelics help. Certainly can't get worse".

Thought about doing LSD, ended up doing mushrooms. Next day after doing them, I felt "normal" for the first time since ages. The days after slowly everything got lighter, and easier and more effortless. It was like loosing a 50kg backpack, but the backpack was in my mind. It doesn't solve it all, I still need to do the "real stuff" but now those activities suddenly had an impact! 

So for me that was where became more conscious of the chemical brain part, and how to influence it. Experimenting now with micros dosing, and regularly tripping as I know understand what impact it can have. 

Not saying that this is the situation and path for everyone - but that it really can be a lot less about actions, personality and mindset and a lot more about chemical imbalances, nervous system state etc. Some people can't see that because it's not the case for them, or forget that - funnily, me too - but it's a good option to check for that variable as well. 

And you are one of the few that explicitly mentions that so I felt like sharing my experience, maybe helpful for others.  If that resonates for someone PAT might be worth a look (Psychedelic-assisted therapy)

 

Edited August 30 by theleelajoker

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@theleelajoker

Thank you for sharing and being vulnerable!

I do think it is most important, firstly, to attend to serious material considerations/limitations.

It could be brain chemistry, environment, toxins, genetics - these are all concrete elements of reality that cannot be bypassed with simple mindfulness and meditation/contemplation. No one should hold themselves to a standard that is completely unrealistic for them. It ends up acting in opposition to the process: we introduce another method that we 'failed' at. And we may be compelled to judge ourselves for said failure. Adding to negative narratives that are already present.

Trauma can also be a huge psychological issue with physiological effects that can prevent the more hardcore spiritual methods.

Thats not to say it cannot be done. Just gotta be really grounded with expectations

 

[theleelajoker]

17 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@theleelajoker

Thank you for sharing and being vulnerable!

I do think it is most important, firstly, to attend to serious material considerations/limitations.

It could be brain chemistry, environment, toxins, genetics - these are all concrete elements of reality that cannot be bypassed with simple mindfulness and meditation/contemplation. No one should hold themselves to a standard that is completely unrealistic for them. It ends up acting in opposition to the process: we introduce another method that we 'failed' at. And we may be compelled to judge ourselves for said failure. Adding to negative narratives that are already present.

Trauma can also be a huge psychological issue with physiological effects that can prevent the more hardcore spiritual methods.

Thats not to say it cannot be done. Just gotta be really grounded with expectations

 

Yeah well said. And it's easy to fall into this trap - if you somehow grew up in am environment where you came to the conclusion that the "mistake" lies with you, then this POV is just on (unconscious) autopilot for other experience.

Bold above marked by me: That's really crucial and often forgotten when people give advice / or look for solutions themselves. And it's a broad range of experiences where this applies.

E.g., I have a friend who desperately wants to get better with women, and he admits he's going nowhere despite doing all the pick up stuff, having a coach etc. And for him IMO it's also the case that the tool "just do pick up stuff" is the wrong approach, and the physiological component you mention cannot be bypassed by that method. But hey that's not selling as good as the idea (illusion) of having lot's of great sex with hot women by simply talking to them 

Edited August 30 by theleelajoker

[UnbornTao]

12 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

My thought is that most people operate “automatically” a lot of the time. So the selfs doing could be said is the “allowing it to happen” (it’s not really a “doing”) In any moment there is opportunity to stop. But even stopping could be automatic, in the way that let’s say a person conditioned with religion thinks sinning is bad so they avoid it. Humans are animals at the end of the day.

You could call it all the self, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t arise automatically. And it certainly doesn’t mean change is not possible. The idea “I do this” didn’t it arise automatically 🤔

Maybe I’m wrong tho. I’m not fully firm in this. It maybe also depends on how you define the self.

I seem to have gone in an extreme direction of the happening being beyond the self . I can see some flaws in it. But for now I don’t know how to elaborate, so I’ll just let it be

Investigate your experience.

You move your body - who did that?

You have a thought - who thought that?

Who's playing the victim?

Who's reading this now?

This isn't self-inquiry - it's simply owning your experience.

Now, create a desire for something. Actually do it - something minor: desiring ice cream, an object not in your vicinity, or more comfort while sitting.

Desire arises from an assessment: that something deemed wanted is not present in your experience right now, and that obtaining it will lead to an improved experience in the future. That assessment is yours.

“I did this, but I didn't really want to - others or circumstances made me do it.” This may be the basic premise of that disposition, and it is not true. The point is: if you took a certain action, you wanted to do it. You may not have desired to do it, but you had the intent, which was reflected in the fact that you performed the action.

I'm not saying every action comes from desire, or that owning your experience means you're now in control of every aspect, and therefore things like disciplining yourself comes naturally. There're still habits and forces you're engaged that seem to push you around. Contemplate them: what's drive and impulse? What's a habit? There are further distinctions to be made in the domain of motivation or drives - such as want and intent. Desiring doesn't involve or demand action - it is more like wishful thinking or daydreaming. Yet the basic observation remains: you are not a victim of your desires. You may say you don't want to have a certain desire because it seems dysfunctional or unhealthy or whatever. Fine - you can deal with that while still recognizing that you are the source of the activity, even if it seems to be out of your hands.

You need to clarify for yourself what’s what in your experience, and strip away as many assumptions as possible along the way.

I haven't explained myself very well, and there's more to be said about this topic, but I hope this is useful.

[UnbornTao]

@Natasha Tori Maru Definitely. You don't even need that depth of recognition to see that, regardless of external influences and extraneous factors, it is your experience, not somebody else's - the main implication of that fact being that you are at the source of it. Of course, deeply experiencing this principle of responsibility, not blame, is different from just thinking about it.

I might rephrase that.

Edited August 30 by UnbornTao

[Natasha Tori Maru]

10 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Of course, deeply experiencing this principle of responsibility (not blame) is different from just thinking about it.

I think this internalized shame due to self blame is a huge issue for most on the path.

It seems to arise from a moral judgement made against the self when it is revealed the self is the doer.

'I am doing something wrong'

There is no wrong  

Just a realization and correction.

A mentor once told me 'The self needs to be healthy and whole before it can be realized for the illusion it is. Otherwise, repression and bypassing.'

 

[UnbornTao]

On 8/30/2025 at 0:12 AM, Sugarcoat said:

Ok since you say so…

I noticed that if I close my eyes, and focus my attention on the physical sensation of a certain body part: it’s hard to do that without simultaneously visualizing the body parts position (even if it’s so subtle I barely notice the thought)

It seems when we direct attention on something: the mind might also think about it 

I read that one aspect of self inquiry is focusing your attention on the self. If the mind also imagines what it focuses on, it means the mind will imagine the self while it’s focused on. And that will create a self image, contribute to the self rather than dissolving it like self inquiry is supposed to do . 
 

But directing attention is seen as a kind of spiritual practice. But if the mind is involved it also becomes kinda conceptual. (But something like labelling might still be considered purely practice)

This is based on my own experiences, I could explain more but I think it’s enough. Hehe

Nice, you seem to be refining your ability to recognize what a concept is.

I recommend you sort out what's what. When you say attention, make a distinction between that - which is more about sensitivity or heightened awareness - and the activity of thinking, which is what you might be calling mind in this case. Attention isn't necessarily the same as thinking, and it might even be empowered by a kind of "mental silence." The mere awareness of something, like an object, is that very distinction, and this comes prior to thinking. You recognize lamp prior to your labeling of it, but this noticing is, as if, a background or very subtle activity. Anyway, this isn't really relevant here.

Just take your most present sense of yourself at this moment and ask: Who am I?

You aren't looking for a notion or a "self," but you - the very one reading these words right now. The mind will provide a plethora of answers, yet these are received by you. It's you - not something else. Just stay grounded and open.

Edited August 31 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

4 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think this internalized shame due to self blame is a huge issue for most on the path.

It seems to arise from a moral judgement made against the self when it is revealed the self is the doer.

'I am doing something wrong'

There is no wrong  

Just a realization and correction.

A mentor once told me 'The self needs to be healthy and whole before it can be realized for the illusion it is. Otherwise, repression and bypassing.'

It seems that assessing something one did as wrong or bad - and recognizing it - as in "I screwed up" - is an element of shame, which is pretty much what you said above. Adding that it occurs in a social context - "how my actions may be perceived by others" or "how I interpret that others may see them." And the action or its effects are considered socially unacceptable in some way. It can also apply to the actions of another person or a group. Not sure how it differs from embarrasment - you native speakers probably have a better sense of that.

Right and wrong might ultimately be unreal or not existential, yet we keep experiencing shame. So the nature of value (I think these are based on value) would probably need to be experientially clear to us first, although dropping shame is more straighforward. Just in case, for anyone else reading, please avoid using this point to justify dysfunctional stuff. Make your beds.

Anyway - some incredibly raw reflections. 

Blame and shame - what are they, really? Something worth questioning. 

I get the sense of where that quote is coming from and somewhat agree with it, but I think it conflates enlightenment and healing. Nothing needs to change to grasp the truth. It's already true and you... thinking of a synonym apprehend it.

Edited August 30 by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

6 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Nice, you seem to be refining your ability to recognize what a concept is.

I recommend you sort out what's what. When you say attention, make a distinction between that - which is more about sensitivity or heightened awareness - and the activity of thinking, which is what you might be calling mind in this case. Attention isn't necessarily the same as thinking, and it might even be empowered by a kind of "mental silence." The mere awareness of something, like an object, is that very distinction, and this comes prior to thinking. You recognize lamp prior to your labeling of it, but this noticing is, as if, a background or very subtle activity. Anyway, this isn't really relevant here.

Stop it, forget about the spiritual crap. Take your most present sense of yourself at this moment and ask: Who am I? You aren't looking for a concept or for a "self," but for you - the very one reading these words right now. The mind will provide a plethora of "answers," yet these are received by you. So, if what you want is clarity about who you are, keep going in that direction. Remember, it's you - not something else. Just stay grounded and open.

Attention seems to do with pure perception (or maybe we could say having a self is like a veil over perception so it’s not fully pure, but for now we can call it the purest thing we can access) I just meant it seems sometimes the mind is active simultaneously as we move around attention 

Thanks for the suggestion of doing self inquiry  

It seems we can notice a sense of self that is not to do with the act of thinking, but rather like a presence. 

Edited August 30 by Sugarcoat

[Sugarcoat]

19 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Ah! 

Identifying an object does in fact, involve thought.

We follow on from the 'Lamp' example:

• Raw perception (pre-thought): Our senses just register shapes, colours, textures, edges. The light enters our eyes and our visual cortex processes patterns. Not so much thinking here, just raw data processing
• Pattern recognition (fast, unconscious thought): Here our brain is comparing data against a whole host of stored templates in memory. 'Bright, shiny, button, globe...probably a lamp' This will happen so quickly we do not notice it. But! It is still a cognitive operation - a background thought. We can begin to become aware of this thought - through meditation.
• Conceptual identification (conscious thought): If we actually label the object 'That is a lamp', or, if we distinguish it from similar things 'Not a ceiling light' that is where the thought proper kicks in - language, concepts, memory being applied.

Identifying is the bridge between perception and thought. 

The raw experience does not need thought, but as soon as you classify it or label it, thought is at play.

You can try this with meditation by staring at an object until you absolutely have no idea what you are looking at any longer.

It definitely seems you have caught the narrative overlay as a thought (or should we say, a thinking) identified 'I need a new lamp'

Incidentally - I actually do need a new lamp WTF @Carl-Richard

 

I have noticed too it seems there is layers of thought. And some I am more or less aware of, some may be so subtle I don’t register it. 

[Sugarcoat]

13 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Yeah Vipassana - or better, the effects during and after - is something I could talk about for days non-stop. It's just so intense and different for me then anything else (except psycedelics). At times, it was super super trippy, super nice and super challenging and mind-breaking. 

Can't really take credit for doing it. It's like you said, can't choose your desires. And also, I had long breaks not doing it. So maybe can't choose your resistance and fears, too? 

What's interesting is that this "beyond mind" effect only happened like that first retreat 6 years ago. Never again reached that exact state, for whatever reason. I experienced other stuff, but never that again.

Very cool

I have also experienced positive change that I’m not sure I can take credit for because it has felt like a natural inclination for me to try to make that change. So there we are on the same page. Although I’m still not sure about this entire “role of the self” thing 

[UnbornTao]

12 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Attention seems to do with pure perception (or maybe we could say having a self is like a veil over perception so it’s not fully pure, but for now we can call it the purest thing we can access) I just meant it seems sometimes the mind is active simultaneously as we move around attention 

Thanks for the suggestion of doing self inquiry  

It seems we can notice a sense of self that is not to do with the act of thinking, but rather like a presence. 

That's good. I'd recommend you clarify your subject of contemplation so as to not get distracted or overly abstract. "Who am I?" is a good one to start with, and remember that it isn't about simply reciting the words but about wanting to know and wondering about it. Formulating the question is done to help your mind stay focused on the subject matter. The basic instruction is: grasp you. Do that first, then move on to another subject.

Then again, stop thinking of self as something different or separate from you. When contemplating, look for the very one doing the looking instead of a notion or some "self" hidden away behind the curtains, or some such metaphor. Seriously, throw out all the nonsense you think you know about the self, it just gets in the way. Pretend you know nothing.

Edited August 31 by UnbornTao

[PurpleTree]

 

23 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

That's good. I'd recommend you clarify your subject of contemplation so as to not get distracted or overly abstract. "Who am I?" is a good one to start with.

Nah man. That’s like first grade spirituality. We are advanced and stuff.

[Sugarcoat]

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Investigate your experience.

You move your body - who did that?

You have a thought - who thought that?

Who's playing the victim?

Who's reading this now?

This isn't self-inquiry - it's simply owning your experience.

 

Me wiggling my feet while sitting happened automatically, etc .We say “we do it” because that’s what we call any action, it’s how we use language, but it doesn’t say everything about how the action arose

Its still my responsibility in the sense that I have the choice to stop those things 

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Now, create a desire for something. Actually do it - something minor: desiring ice cream, an object not in your vicinity, or more comfort while sitting.

 

I didn’t eat much so if I imagine pasta carbonara I can feel very subtle craving that wasn’t initially there

So yea maybe I was wrong I can indeed create desire. 

But in my experience it doesn’t go further than “subtle” 
 

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

Desire arises from an assessment: that something deemed wanted is not present in your experience right now, and that obtaining it will lead to an improved experience in the future. That assessment is yours.

 

Once again language, yea it’s mine but it doesn’t say everything about how the desire arose

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

“I did this, but I didn't really want to - others or circumstances made me do it.” This may be the basic premise of that disposition, and it is not true. The point is: if you took a certain action, you wanted to do it. You may not have desired to do it, but you had the intent, which was reflected in the fact that you performed the action.

 

If a boy starts smoking cigarettes at the age of 12 when he doesn’t know it’s addictive, gets severely addicted

When he’s an adult he decides he wants to stop. He uses his willpower and he practices spiritual practices to develop mindfulness of the addiction etc

Yet it still happens from time to time that  he  grabs cigarette.

I think it’s realistic to say it’s sometimes caused by “wiring of the reward pathway “ or something. 

It’s unrealistic to say the self causes all action imo 

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

I'm not saying every action comes from desire, or that owning your experience means you're now in control of every aspect, and therefore things like disciplining yourself comes naturally. There're still habits and forces you're engaged that seem to push you around. Contemplate them: what's drive and impulse? What's a habit? There are further distinctions to be made in the domain of motivation or drives - such as want and intent. Desiring doesn't involve or demand action - it is more like wishful thinking or daydreaming.

Agree

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Yet the basic observation remains: you are not a victim of your desires. You may say you don't want to have a certain desire because it seems dysfunctional or unhealthy or whatever. Fine - you can deal with that while still recognizing that you are the source of the activity, even if it seems to be out of your hands.

 

I kinda explained my disagreements above so that connects to this

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

You need to clarify for yourself what’s what in your experience, and strip away as many assumptions as possible along the way.

I haven't explained myself very well, and there's more to be said about this topic, but I hope this is useful.

I like that idea. Like purifying the psyche, that has been a priority of mine over the years.

Ofc every topic one could go even deeper in…

Edited August 30 by Sugarcoat

[PurpleTree]

I’m sorry but this kind of

Who am i?

Who’s thinking that?

Toddler-ish so to speak

That was like cool 5 years ago. We are off to bigger and better things

Like Jim Newman hihi 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

 

2 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I’m sorry but this kind of

Who am i?

Who’s thinking that?

Toddler-ish so to speak

That was like cool 5 years ago. We are off to bigger and better things

Like Jim Newman hihi 

Everyone is in process. 

What was the intention behind this post? 

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

lol

I think in another thread you said you actually don’t want to get liberated. So then it would make sense to listen to that stuff. Otherwise not much bruv.

2 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

 

Everyone is in process. 

What was the intention behind this post? 

 
I think most of the advice some of you guys give is a "trap" so to speak. Not out of ill will but just because. And not everyone is in a process. Only the "me" is in process you know what i mean. There’s no time and no process. Jim Newman isn’t in process he just is. Timeless. Isness. Yolo huhu.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

22 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

If a boy starts smoking cigarettes at the age of 12 when he doesn’t know it’s addictive, gets severely addicted

When he’s an adult he decides he wants to stop. He uses his willpower and he practices spiritual practices to develop mindfulness of the addiction etc

Yet it still happens from time to time that  he  grabs cigarette.

I think it’s realistic to say it’s sometimes caused by “wiring of the reward pathway “ or something. 

It’s unrealistic to say the self causes all action imo 

Regardless of if the boy understood the action and consequences - did the boy not start smoking cigarettes himself? He purchased or obtained them, lit the cigarette and smoked it. 

If there are permanent neural changes, these may generate impulses. But the self still decided to take up the smoking.

Who else did that?