OBEler

Women have wildly different interests than men

258 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Emerald said:

Money is the way that society indicates that it values something. That is why anything Feminine or female-related will always be paid less and get less appreciation, until we are able to depolarize our valuation of both principles.

Anything feminine gets paid less because it provides less survival value in most scenarios.

Do you acknowledge this?

Edited by aurum

"Finding your reason can be so deceiving, a subliminal place. 

I will not break, 'cause I've been riding the curves of these infinity words and so I'll be on my way. I will not stay.

 And it goes On and On, On and On"

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57 minutes ago, aurum said:

Anything feminine gets paid less because it provides less survival value in most scenarios.

Do you acknowledge this?

No, I don't acknowledge that because it isn't true and never has been true in any era of human history.

It's just that the survival contributions of women involve a lot of invisible work that gets overlooked as the traditionally Feminine work is one of cyclical sustenance rather than of progressive achievement.

For example, everyone appreciates the man in the tribe who brings home the wooly mammoth as he is recognized to have achieved something of great survival value... and is thusly celebrated for his acheivement.

But the invisible labor of women in the tribe who do all the childcare, cooking, cleaning, creating and mending clothing, and other maintenance tasks gets overlooked and taken for granted... because if they've done the job well, the work is invisible.

But if they don't do it and do it well, everyone in the tribe's survival is compromised.

So, human history is one of women being the invisible glue that holds everything together and getting very little thanks for it. And even the notion that women provide less survival value is a continuation of that lack of gratitude and acknowledgement for the sacrifices of women now and all the woman in all eras before that your life is scaffolded upon.

There is a quote that goes something like, "A man might work from sun to sun, but a woman's work is never done."

And that is how it is now and it is how it has always been in human history. 

But it's also true with people who do sustainer tasks in general that they don't get recognized for their invisible work. Consider how little appreciation that people have to the garbage man. It used to even be the case that parents would say, "You better go to college or you'll end up being the garbage man."

But the garbage man provides SOOO much invisible survival value and deserves everyone's upmost gratitude... and way better pay.

But cyclical sustainer tasks are archetypally Feminine principled... so they are devalued and come with no prestige. We only value the Masculine-principled progressive achievement based tasks that are more visible to use because there is more contrast around them.

In these tasks, if you've done well... your achievement is visibly evident. It's the opposite of sustainer tasks where, if you'd done well... it doesn't look like you've done anything at all.

The fact of the matter is that the most of the survival value comes from the people who are the least valued in society... and who do the most thankless invisible work.

Consider India with its caste system... where the bottom class is called the "untouchables" or Dalits. And people of the higher classes, don't even want a Dalit's shadow to touch them. And because of their low status, their assigned lot in life is to collect human waste and deal with the sewage.

The Dalits were seen as being of "low survival value".

And there was a strike among the Dalits where they refused to collect human waste... and everyone of every class started to get very ill because of the sewage problem.

So, it was a bit of justice for the acknowledgment of the "survival value" of those who are thought less valuable in the hegemonic ways people tend to see society.


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12 hours ago, Emerald said:

I mean, macho guys can also get on my nerves when I've interacted with them in day-to-day life. Though I've never been close friends or had a romantic partner who was particularly macho, because of divergences in values.

So, I don't really associate macho men with pain and trauma. They're just a bit annoying sometimes because they can sometimes be a bit bone-headed.

But on this forum, I can't recall ever having any debates or disagreements with macho guys. There's really only a couple guys on here that I'd put anywhere near the macho category, and they're mostly pretty reasonable. They seem less likely to get in their head about women.

It's usually the "brain in a jar" nerdy guys who come up with all sorts of weird gender ideologies (in lieu of real experiences with women) who I end up debating with. And they tend to have particularly inaccurate views on women as they tend to see us as a totally alien species from themselves and are always trying to understand women through complex intellectual frameworks that exaggerate men's and women's general differences... rather than through direct experience where a common humanity can be directly recognized.

And it's difficult to reach them because they believe these ideologies are serving them, as it feels empowering to them in framing them as the stronger and superior ones. But these narratives don't serve them and are really just soothing their ego and holding them back from fulfilling experiences with women.

But then it's also annoying and genuinely scary from the female perspective because it's like having all these distortions and inaccuracies projected onto you, as it makes it impossible to be seen and understood. And common humanity gets overlooked. 

Men who have these projections tend to have an idealized notion of femaleness and Femininity that conceptualizes of women's nature as something that fundamentally exists to serve themselves and to exist in an inferior role to them. And they project their self-serving narratives right over top of the authentic things about women's personalities... and frames real female authenticity as somehow Masculine or as a sign of societal corruption or as a trauma response. 

It's like the idea that, "If society was operating like it should, women would be Feminine (in the way I define it) and would exist to serve men." So, it views the real humanity of women as an aberration and mistake that humanity is making rather than as a reflection of the ordinary human nature that has always been there.

And it aggravates ancient collective wounds because women have collectively suffered a lot because of the strange psychological projections and misunderstandings about women's nature. And that's because this projection phenomenon and the misunderstandings that it produces, has had such an insurmountable influence on culture and politics in a way that squelches women's capacity for authenticity, sovereignty, freedom, and personal expansion.

So, it feels genuinely politically unsafe when a man is really up in his head about women because he's doing nothing but shadow boxing. And it's a really common pattern... and not just one-off instances of ignorant arrogance.

And you can see how much these projections could lead to a loss of human rights for women. The way that we're going, I give it another 10-20 years before women's right to vote gets called back into question because of all these distorted notions people project onto women in order to try to "understand our nature".

You just might not necessarily see the political danger of these projections and intellectual narratives when they infect a society, as you feel that they won't affect you. And you may even assume that women will be better off anyway if these projections are applied... as you believe it's a movement towards a more accurate framework of female nature. (Hence the danger)

Consider how races and ethnic groups can be exploited, enslaved, tortured, and killed when another society projects over top of them... and uses those projections to justify their own terrible behaviors.

Remember that white slave owners projected onto black enslaved people that black people are not full people and therefore lack the capacity for self-governance... therefore white slave owners are doing something charitable by governing the enslaved people.

That's the unconsciously self-serving way that people operate when they have a collective interest in controlling and exploiting a people group.

So, if you consider men's collective interest in controlling and exploiting women for their own gain (especially when those men struggle with meeting women and getting a girlfriend), you will understand why I push back so much on the perspectives that I do.

So, it is the future collective political harm that I fear... not some upset feelings towards macho guys. It's not even remotely about relationship-related stuff.

Yea, some guys can have some pretty skewed views on this topic. It is mostly fueled by frustration but also patriarchal legacy. And that shit that Orion also advocates for, that men have to be served by women for some reason is retarded.


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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, aurum said:

Anything feminine gets paid less because it provides less survival value in most scenarios.

Do you acknowledge this?

It gets paid less because it's less marketable. When your profession deals with "things", that's more fungible, more quantitative, more scalable. When it deals with people, it's less fungible. Money is fungible. More things = more money. Motherhood is not very marketable, but it's qualitatively very valueable.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy = being x meaning ²

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1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

It gets paid less because it's less marketable. When your profession deals with things, that's more fungible, more quantitative, more scalable. When it deals with people, it's less fungible. Money is fungible. More things = generally more money. Motherhood is not very fungible, but it's qualitatively very valueable.

Yes, that's accurate.

A lot of traditionally Feminine work has tons of survival value because it involves the absence of major survival problems... without the evidence of the tragedies that would have otherwise occurred had that work not been done. So, they're a hard sell value-wise, as they are taken for granted.

It's hard not to under-estimate the survival value of the janitor... until the janitor stops doing his job.

It's sort of like how people view vaccines as having less survival value than cures.... despite that vaccines are responsible for saving so many lives.

With cures, there is a sense that the cure can come in as the hero that saves the day... and be appreciated for its survival value. 

But vaccines save so many more lives than cures do. But because they are preventative medicine for sustaining a healthy population, they get taken for granted at best... and demonized at worst.

Traditional men's work is like a cure. Traditional women's work is like a vaccine.

And it's much harder for people to value a vaccine. So, cures cost a lot more.


Are you struggling with self-sabotage and CONSTANTLY standing in the way of your own success? 

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Posted (edited)

27 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Yes, that's accurate.

A lot of traditionally Feminine work has tons of survival value because it involves the absence of major survival problems... without the evidence of the tragedies that would have otherwise occurred had that work not been done. So, they're a hard sell value-wise, as they are taken for granted.

It's hard not to under-estimate the survival value of the janitor... until the janitor stops doing his job.

And without mothers, no janitors. No millionaires, no billionaires, no Steve Jobses, no Jeff Bezoses, no Elon Musks. Women make the market, the men just grow it.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy = being x meaning ²

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17 hours ago, Emerald said:

But the invisible labor of women in the tribe who do all the childcare, cooking, cleaning, creating and mending clothing, and other maintenance tasks gets overlooked and taken for granted... because if they've done the job well, the work is invisible.

But if they don't do it and do it well, everyone in the tribe's survival is compromised.

But that's just literally how survival value works.

Value is ALWAYS about a need. And a need is always something unfulfilled, something you don't currently have.

If I asked you to pay $100 for your heart to pump blood, you would not pay it because your heart is already pumping blood.

It doesn't matter that if your heart stopped pumping you would die. It doesn't matter that you might be willing to pay millions if you had a heart condition. It doesn't matter that it's invisible to you and that you take it for granted.

Right now, it's pumping. And so it's not a need for you. Therefore you won't even pay $100. 

If I invent a cure for cancer that no one else has access to, I will potentially make millions of dollars. But if in 50 years everyone has access to the same cure, it will be financially worth almost nothing.

Money / value is based on scarcity, period.

You could argue garbage workers should be paid more due to corporate corruption, but the reality is there is very little that is scarce about their ability to take out the garbage. Almost any man with basic physical skills and health could do it. So of course they get paid very little.

Making money is COMPETITIVE. You are competing to add the most asymetric value to the marketplace to then get the most in return. Garbage workers are losing the competition.


"Finding your reason can be so deceiving, a subliminal place. 

I will not break, 'cause I've been riding the curves of these infinity words and so I'll be on my way. I will not stay.

 And it goes On and On, On and On"

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, aurum said:

But that's just literally how survival value works.

Is survival value even a specific concept? xD "Value" is like the least specific concept there is, "survival" is arguably just as much.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy = being x meaning ²

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1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is survival value even a specific concept? xD "Value" is like the least specific concept there is, "survival" is arguably just as much.

Survival value = whatever helps you survive.

Simple.


"Finding your reason can be so deceiving, a subliminal place. 

I will not break, 'cause I've been riding the curves of these infinity words and so I'll be on my way. I will not stay.

 And it goes On and On, On and On"

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4 minutes ago, aurum said:

Survival value = whatever helps you survive.

Simple.

What makes you survive more? Your mom or your dad?


Intrinsic joy = being x meaning ²

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1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

What makes you survive more? Your mom or your dad?

What is the point of such a question?


"Finding your reason can be so deceiving, a subliminal place. 

I will not break, 'cause I've been riding the curves of these infinity words and so I'll be on my way. I will not stay.

 And it goes On and On, On and On"

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1 hour ago, aurum said:

What is the point of such a question?

Seems a bit vague, doesn't it? 

If I had asked "who is physically stronger?", it would be easier.

The point is that "survival value" is a bit vague, and men and women contribute a lot to survival in their own ways. Who contributes the most seems a bit hard to pin down.


Intrinsic joy = being x meaning ²

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1 hour ago, aurum said:

But that's just literally how survival value works.

Value is ALWAYS about a need. And a need is always something unfulfilled, something you don't currently have.

If I asked you to pay $100 for your heart to pump blood, you would not pay it because your heart is already pumping blood.

It doesn't matter that if your heart stopped pumping you would die. It doesn't matter that you might be willing to pay millions if you had a heart condition. It doesn't matter that it's invisible to you and that you take it for granted.

Right now, it's pumping. And so it's not a need for you. Therefore you won't even pay $100. 

If I invent a cure for cancer that no one else has access to, I will potentially make millions of dollars. But if in 50 years everyone has access to the same cure, it will be financially worth almost nothing.

Money / value is based on scarcity, period.

You could argue garbage workers should be paid more due to corporate corruption, but the reality is there is very little that is scarce about their ability to take out the garbage. Almost any man with basic physical skills and health could do it. So of course they get paid very little.

Making money is COMPETITIVE. You are competing to add the most asymetric value to the marketplace to then get the most in return. Garbage workers are losing the competition.

It depends on how you define survival value.

If you define survival value as objectively, "Things that contribute the most to human survival"... then women contribute just as much to survival value as men do, if not more because of women doing the lion's share of cyclical sustainer tasks.

But if you define survival value subjectively as, "Things that contribute to human survival that people are consciously aware of due to the scarcity/rarity/novelty of what is being provided." then I can see that men's work is more visible and people will tend to take it for granted less and consciously value it more in a subjective sense.

If we go with the latter subjective definition that you've proposed for the term "survival value", then novel experiences (like going on vacation) have a lot more survival value than having access to a consistent supply of drinking water because the latter is a taken for granted background element for people in first-world nations... while the former is a rarity and highly valued (and a premium can be charged for it).

But I would argue that access to clean drinking water objectively has more survival value even if it's common and banal... and taken for granted.

Certainly, value exists within the eye of the beholder generally.

But if were are looking specially at "survival value" as "that which objectively contributes the most to the life and death survival of human beings." I would argue that access to drinking water provides objectively more survival value than other resources that are scarcer and more novel.


Are you struggling with self-sabotage and CONSTANTLY standing in the way of your own success? 

If so, and if you're looking for an experienced coach to help you discover and resolve the root of the issue, you can click this link to schedule a free discovery call with me to see if my program is a good fit for you.

 

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8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Seems a bit vague, doesn't it? 

If I had asked "who is physically stronger?", it would be easier.

The point is that "survival value" is a bit vague, and men and women contribute a lot to survival in their own ways. Who contributes the most seems a bit hard to pin down.

We are not debating men versus women per se.

We are debating the relative pros and cons of energetic polarities, which can be inhabited by any gender. And of course all people will have some of both.


"Finding your reason can be so deceiving, a subliminal place. 

I will not break, 'cause I've been riding the curves of these infinity words and so I'll be on my way. I will not stay.

 And it goes On and On, On and On"

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23 minutes ago, Emerald said:

If you define survival value as objectively, "Things that contribute the most to human survival"... then women contribute just as much to survival value as men do, if not more because of women doing the lion's share of cyclical sustainer tasks.

But if you define survival value subjectively as, "Things that contribute to human survival that people are consciously aware of due to the scarcity/rarity/novelty of what is being provided." then I can see that men's work is more visible and people will tend to take it for granted less and consciously value it more in a subjective sense.

There is only subjective survival value.

Survival is completely amorphous because ego is inherently amorphous.

23 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But I would argue that access to clean drinking water objectively has more survival value even if it's common and banal... and taken for granted.

That would be wrong.

You only think that because you are imagining what would happen if you suddenly didn't have water.

If you drank enough water, it would literally kill you. That's the relatively of survival.


"Finding your reason can be so deceiving, a subliminal place. 

I will not break, 'cause I've been riding the curves of these infinity words and so I'll be on my way. I will not stay.

 And it goes On and On, On and On"

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, aurum said:

We are not debating men versus women per se.

We are debating the relative pros and cons of energetic polarities, which can be inhabited by any gender. And of course all people will have some of both.

That's obvious, you can now answer the real point.

 

10 hours ago, aurum said:

That would be wrong.

You only think that because you are imagining what would happen if you suddenly didn't have water.

Is enlightenment valueable only if I don't have it? Things have innate value. They have value because they provide certain functions and freedoms, or simply because they are good in and of themselves. Scarcity only amplies that value locally and temporarily in some situations.

Some things provide the basis for a lot of functions and freedoms, for a lot a value. Water does that, mothers do that. You could put that which is more basic and opens up for the most functions and freedoms as providing more survival value, by virtue that they make those things possible.

Edited by Carl-Richard

Intrinsic joy = being x meaning ²

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23 hours ago, Emerald said:

Consider India with its caste system... where the bottom class is called the "untouchables" or Dalits. And people of the higher classes, don't even want a Dalit's shadow to touch them. And because of their low status, their assigned lot in life is to collect human waste and deal with the sewage.

The Dalits were seen as being of "low survival value".

And there was a strike among the Dalits where they refused to collect human waste... and everyone of every class started to get very ill because of the sewage problem.

So, it was a bit of justice for the acknowledgment of the "survival value" of those who are thought less valuable in the hegemonic ways people tend to see society.

The caste system is an obsolete feudal system similar to that in europe, japan and korea. Privileged western and russian aristocrats for centuries used to trample upon the human rights of the western lower classes, peasants and serfs. 

Modern Indian constitution has rendered the Indian caste system obsolete and provides various privileges for the lower castes and dalits including educational and employment quotas which has resulted in the upliftment of a majority of the lower castes including the dalits.

The socialists and communists also played a major role in their empowerment from feudal chains.

Any sort of caste discrimination can result in imprisonment and heavy fines.

India's present prime minister and president stems from the lowest castes .


Self-awareness is yoga. - Nisargadatta

Awareness is the great non-conceptual perfection. - Dzogchen

Evil is an extreme manifestation of human unconsciousness. - Eckhart Tolle

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19 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

It gets paid less because it's less marketable. When your profession deals with "things", that's more fungible, more quantitative, more scalable. When it deals with people, it's less fungible. Money is fungible. More things = more money. Motherhood is not very marketable, but it's qualitatively very valueable.

Great idea! Thanks!


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12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

That's obvious, you can now answer the real point.

I've already answered it in this thread.

I argue masculinity is typically superior for creating survival value in the workplace. That's literally its function, to secure survival for the feminine.

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is enlightenment valueable only if I don't have it?

Enlightenment is not about survival.

We are talking about survival.

Yes, awakening is beyond survival. But almost no one cares about that. And even if you do, most of your time will still be spent doing survival.

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Things have innate value. They have value because they provide certain functions and freedoms, or simply because they are good in and of themselves

No they literally do not.

To have a function first requires an agenda, which in turn requires a self.

If they are simply good in of themselves, that is equivalent to saying that it provides no value to you.


"Finding your reason can be so deceiving, a subliminal place. 

I will not break, 'cause I've been riding the curves of these infinity words and so I'll be on my way. I will not stay.

 And it goes On and On, On and On"

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20 hours ago, aurum said:

There is only subjective survival value.

Survival is completely amorphous because ego is inherently amorphous.

That would be wrong.

You only think that because you are imagining what would happen if you suddenly didn't have water.

If you drank enough water, it would literally kill you. That's the relatively of survival.

While value in itself is subjective and in the eye of the beholder... value with a qualifier is objective, as it is seen from the perspective of the qualifier and not the beholder.

So, deciding that survival is valuable in itself is purely subjective (even if nearly universal) as survival in itself is neither inherently valuable not non-valuable. From the eyes of the universe, survival as a phenomenon is empty of inherent value.

But once you say the phrase "survival value", that takes away the subjectivity factors of value being in the eye of the beholder... and you are then objectively assessing something's value in relation to a particular end goal... in this case survival.

And while "value" by itself is always subjective, "survival value" can be assessed objectively... especially if you use the word "survival" in more precise and accurate terms to mean, "that which sustains life."

For example, if I am assessing the value of various objects towards the end goal of "brushing my teeth"... I can objectively say that toothbrushes objectively have more "tooth-brushing value" than ironing boards do.

Similarly, if I am assessing the value of various commodities towards the end of "surviving"... I can objectively say that water objectively has more "survival value" than vacations.


Are you struggling with self-sabotage and CONSTANTLY standing in the way of your own success? 

If so, and if you're looking for an experienced coach to help you discover and resolve the root of the issue, you can click this link to schedule a free discovery call with me to see if my program is a good fit for you.

 

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