We need a "systems nutritional science"

[Carl-Richard]

If you eat banana with your blueberries, you can inhibit the absorption of the antioxidants by 84%. It's due to polyphenol oxidase, the thing that makes banana brown when you cut it (and it's also in apples). 

Also, if you eat blueberries, you can inhibit the absorption of iron by 80-90%. Because the antioxidants form complexes with iron (and other minerals).

Tea leaves, walnuts, the list goes on; foods that contain tannins, oxalates, phytic acid and other anti-nutrients; influence the absorption of other nutritents. Anti-oxidants are anti-nutrients(!) But they are good for you, right? Yes, but they compete with other things that are good for you.

Nobody taught you this in school. We need a "systems nutritional science": interactions between nutrients matter.

 

I've always had the intuition (or maybe I heard it from Sadhguru) that when you eat many different foods at the same time, it is more difficult for your system to process it, because there is more complexity to compute, more different things to digest, more recruiting of different digestive enzymes and processes, more different structures to unpack. But I didn't make a particular connection to absorption, but now it's clear (but I still think there are other processes involved).

This also makes me think about Schmachtenberger telling a story about this holistic health guy who made his patients "eat close to the biosphere" (essentially go out in the wild and pick what you feel like eating). Of course there is a point there about using interoception as a barometer for health, but also when you do that, you will be forced (or incentivized) to eat one thing at a time. You will likely eat a large amount of the same food, maybe until you're full, and then you move on to the next food when you're hungry again. That way you actually absorb the nutrients and don't get deficiencies, which is maybe why some hunter-gatherer Indians lived until they were over 100.

I think actually eating based on interoception is the crown jewel of nutritional health, because there are probably so many interactions between nutrients that we don't even know about in science, and that even if you say separate banana from blueberries, there could be other things you're eating that you should separate but which there is no data on, or there could be benefits with banana and blueberries together that we don't know about. But if what you're eating is decently good overall, you can pick that up interoceptively.

And this points towards a greater point, that process (the "how") can matter just as much as substance (the "what"). Separating nutrients, eating them at different times, can be just as important as eating them. I'll make a more detailed personal account demonstrating this later.

Edited 4 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Schizophonia]

@Carl-Richard It's too much efforts for nothing.

Like do you know people with anemia because they ate too many blueberries

Edited 17 hours ago by Schizophonia

[Carl-Richard]

14 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

@Carl-Richard It's too much efforts for nothing.

I know you don't like systems thinking and that you're lazy 😛 What's new?

 

15 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Like do you know people with anemia because they ate too many blueberries

Your mom.

[Schizophonia]

30 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I know you don't like systems thinking and that you're lazy 😛 What's new?

I mean, life is about sharing and building a future. You can feel this sensation—perhaps one of lightness, euphoria, sensory development, interest, creativity, a comfortable energy depth—or even happiness—when you're doing activities, surrounded by people you get along with comfortably, traveling, in a particular natural setting where you feel something daring that reminds you of your childhood, etc.
The objects vary from person to person, but it's always about this openness; and I can't help but think that nutrition is essentially a low-frequency delusion.
The kind of interest where the libido shifts for lack of something better because you've given in to schizoidism, or because you have certain fears like winning weight, etc.
I don't know about you, but in my mind, that's what it feels like, hehe.

So I don't want to worry about antinutrients in my nuts or vegetables; I know that, virtually, it won't cause any problems and I'll be fine.

Unless, once again, I'm on a weird diet.

Quote

Your mom.

Be careful no channeling from Wotan with bulging eyes can stop a blow from a frozen baguette to the skull.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Schizophonia

[UnbornTao]

 

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I mean, life is about sharing and building a future. You can feel this sensation—perhaps one of lightness, euphoria, sensory development, interest, creativity, a comfortable energy depth—or even happiness—when you're doing activities, surrounded by people you get along with comfortably, traveling, in a particular natural setting where you feel something daring that reminds you of your childhood, etc.
The objects vary from person to person, but it's always about this openness; and I can't help but think that nutrition is essentially a low-frequency delusion.
The kind of interest where the libido shifts for lack of something better because you've given in to schizoidism, or because you have certain fears like winning weight, etc.
I don't know about you, but in my mind, that's what it feels like, hehe.

So I don't want to worry about antinutrients in my nuts or vegetables; I know that, virtually, it won't cause any problems and I'll be fine.

Unless, once again, I'm on a weird diet.

Yes there is a neurotic element, and you can approach anything more or less neurotically, but try being "open" when you're deficient in vitamin D.

 

8 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Be careful no channeling from Wotan with bulging eyes can stop a blow from a frozen baguette to the skull.

Next video I'll have black metal face paint on and stare 250% more intensely into the camera. As hard as I stared on that Danish mermaid statue that got banned for certain reasons 👁👁

Edited 8 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

And this points towards a greater point, that process (the "how") can matter just as much as substance (the "what"). Separating nutrients, eating them at different times, can be just as important as eating them. I'll make a more detailed personal account demonstrating this later.

Here is the personal account, which I will also title "why process can sometimes be just as important as substance":

I recently started taking a multivitamin. I noticed if I took it together with my other existing supplements (some minerals and fat-soluble vitamins), it made me have an upset stomach. Apparently, many nutrients compete for uptake in the stomach, so too many of them at once can cause trouble. 

So I decided to separate the multivitamin from the existing supplements. Initially, I started taking the multivitamin on an empty stomach and with water so I could absorb it before taking the other supplements with my morning meal (mostly eggs, so fat-based, good for my existing vitamins). This helped a bit, but the multivitamin still made my stomach a bit upset.

So I decided I could eat the kiwi fruit I usually eat after my morning meal, before the morning meal, right before I take the multivitamin, to soften the landing in my stomach. This was also a good idea because the multivitamin I take is mostly water soluble, and a kiwi is mostly water and fiber. It also has a lot of vitamin C which helps with particularly iron uptake from the multivitamin.

Then recently, I decided to change my meals a bit: increase the size of the morning meal and decrease the size of my two other meals. This was to make me eat earlier before going bed, because food and sleep can be antagonistic in many ways. So this meant going from 3 to 5 eggs in the morning, and also moving my blueberries from my evening meal to my morning meal. I started eating the blueberries right after my kiwi. This was going pretty well, but I thought, what if I can do better?

So I researched blueberries and found out the anti-oxidants can reduce iron absorption by 80-90%. I also felt a bit stuffed after eating so much fruit before the rest of the morning meal, so I decided to place the blueberries right after my morning meal. Then I went to the gym, and either it's a big fluke or something else is going on, but I've not been so energetic in a long time. Maybe it was the iron? Maybe it was the anti-oxidants being freed up when they couldn't bind to the iron?

Even if the story is bogus, the things I've demonstrated should be possible in principle and demonstrates the importance of process. I will maybe make a more general thread demonstrating this with also other topics than nutrition.

Edited 4 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Joshe]

Makes sense to take into account. I mean, the whole point for me eating blueberries is the antioxidants, so if they’re being diminished by the banana in the smoothie, that’s no good. I also intuited this was happening with all sorts of foods but the complexity compounds quickly. 

I was thinking it might be best to take multiple antioxidant shots in between meals to avoid any possible diminution, but also to have a more steady supply in the bloodstream. Thought about doing this with anti-inflammatory compounds as well. Something like 4 shots per day of black seed, broccoli sprouts, turmeric + pepper. Tried it out for a while but it’s a lot of work. Need a good system to maintain it. 

Edited 6 hours ago by Joshe

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

I was thinking it might be best to take multiple antioxidant shots in between meals to avoid any possible diminution, but also to have a more steady supply in the bloodstream. Thought about doing this with anti-inflammatory compounds as well. Something like 4 shots per day of black seed, broccoli sprouts, turmeric + pepper. Tried it out for a while but it’s a lot of work. Need a good system to maintain it. 

If I didn't value time-restricted eating, I would probably chomp blueberries all day.

Edited 4 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Joshe]

41 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If I didn't value time-restricted eating, I would probably chomp blueberries all day.

Do you allow yourself a window or specific meal times? I usually eat whenever I want within an 8hr window. Kinda fell off the wagon as of late. Been doing OMAD and feeling decent. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Joshe

[LoneWonderer]

This is good insights. My usual meals revolve around a pot of mixed vegetables or a super salad to which both I add 70-90 different plants. I just mix it all together but it is very true that sometimes a much simpler meal with fewer ingredients (mash potatoes with green beans) is much tastier and maybe according to your theory also healthier as the body does not have to work as hard. The only downside is that this is so complicated to achieve and really can easily lead to neurotic behaviour in people I believe.

PS: I'm extremely health conscious individual that's why the 70-90 plants in a meal (also my wallet is very light buying all those varied plants 😂. I've been doing this for the past 8 years or so.) No processed foods, sugar, low sodium salt, water filtration, air filtration, exercise daily, mineral sunscreen whenever outdoors, no plastic cuttlery or non stick, eco wash powders and cleaning products, red lights around the house at night etc etc.

Edited 1 hour ago by LoneWonderer