Reality vs. Consciousness (Chicken-Egg Problem)

[yetineti]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

That won't be a definition but the absence of definition

The absence of definition here is quite defining. When something defines something else we call that a definition.

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If you contemplate it, you'll have to admit that consciousness is the perception of change. Without change, there is no becoming; there is no consciousness, because consciousness needs contrast to exist. How can something be fundamental if it depends on something else? That's called relative.

It can’t be.

If change is fundamental, there must be something else that the change affects.

How can something be fundamental if it depends on something else?

The very notion of change implies so many things and none of them are the One happening right now.

Reality remains the same as it’s always been. Nothing changes.

@Breakingthewall

Edited yesterday at 02:48 AM by yetineti

[yetineti]

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Absence of self means absence of center. The self is precisely the center, it's just a perception, the perception of the limits. It's impossible to see it until you break the limits. Then you are the same than now, it's not like you dissapear, only that there is no center, you are unlimited and the existence is arising and you are that, not a observer but the reality itself. Then conciousness is meaningless because conciousness implies being aware of. There is not being aware, it's just the reality. If you perceive that there is the fact of being aware it's because you are perceiving a center.

@yetineti  don't you see my point? 

The point is not saying that reality is not conciousness and saying that it's anything else, is understanding that conciousness implies a center, even you think that it's unlimited. It's subtle, but it's the door that closes. 

@Breakingthewall

Reality is grounded and centered. It doesn’t change.

Edited yesterday at 02:08 AM by yetineti

[yetineti]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

No, it's the absolute glory. It's unthinkable, if you step outside the closing perspective and become absolute reality, there is still another door. Perceiving yourself as absolute reality is not perceiving your essence, your nature. If experience is completely shattered and you access your nature, veiled by form, the whole explodes. The fact that here and now there are no limits manifests as unlimited totality, absolute potential. The end of the search, total power, total life, the fullness that burns you and threatens to disintegrate you if you don't return to form.

Fantasy

[yetineti]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's something very subtle. There's a final door, when there is no longer fear or attachment to thought, which is made only of perspective. It's like a game of mirrors. At a given moment, you change perspective, then you realize that you are not in a perspective but that you are the reality. Period. You are not experiencing. Experiencing is doing something, receiving something, perceiving something. You are that, period. You are the fact of the appearance of perception, the totality of what appears, its final fundament and its apparent form. You are everything, the totality. Then you can enter your final nature, your divine, absolute, total nature, the total glory that manifest due your limitlessness. That's the point; the rest is just a matter of perspective.

Fantasy

Edited yesterday at 02:10 AM by yetineti

[Davino]

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

the fact of perceiving that you are experiencing is the door that closes. You could say that no, that you are the experience itself, but the word: experience ,implies an experiencer. The reality is not experience, is the reality, experience if how the reality is configured now. If the experiencer and the experience collapses, there's not more experience, it's just open. You will laugh loud. Just now, exactly now, the reality in infinitely open and you are that. It's absolutely unthinkable. You could call it God, i prefer call it total, you could also call it you .The experience is an arising that is happening, and it's configuration produces the appearance of an experience, but it's just what appears. The reality is not what appears, is what allows the appearance due it limitlessness. 

First, I'd say: Don't close yourself in arguments. Remain wide open and awake while talking.

In a nutshell, I don't see those distinctions you point. For me there's this present universal flow of conciousness or experience, it's like an ocean, wha trying to pin point, it's a whole flow of life of pure consciousness. Stop beating around the bush, it's fucking consciousness.

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If you acced to the whole the experience has no center, there is not experiencer then there's not an experience, it's an arising. It's absolutely and radically different 

You cannot scape reality, existence or consciousness, doesn't matter how Rarified or Absolute it gets, I've been there, trust me. It's all consciousness and we are swiming around, it's a fucking dream, the universal mind is living through us all, see? Totally open, it flows. It's CONSCIOUSNESS

 

[yetineti]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

They are. The form exist. What is apparent is the perspective of the experiencer, but as appearance it's real, and the form itself is relative movement of the reality, manifestation that arise. The real dissolution of the form is death, the end of the existence, understanding existence as manifestation of the reality. But manifestation always happens, because absence of manifestation doesn't happen, is out of the "happening". The nature of reality beyond the form can manifest if the form becomes transparent to itself, but there is always form, that means, perception or conciousness. They exist, but they are not the reality, are a perspective in the reality. Are real, but as a perspective 

Now people will tell me that this is mental masturbation, but can't be more clear.

Correct, this is mental masturbation

Edited yesterday at 02:13 AM by yetineti

[yetineti]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I can tell exactly what happens after death.

Don’t be arrogant and spread falsehoods.

This is a forum not a blog. Nobody has time to respond to endless paragraphs of speculation.

Edited yesterday at 02:22 AM by yetineti

[Davino]

@yetineti Please argument your position, this is about pure philosophy, getting personal is of no use to reach Truth.

[yetineti]

51 minutes ago, Davino said:

@yetineti Please argument your position, this is about pure philosophy, getting personal is of no use to reach Truth.

Can you point me to where I got personal?

Or explain how it isn’t relevant?

Edit: I took out two sentences that could be seen as harsh. Everything else points to the Truth, from my understanding.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

Edited yesterday at 03:18 AM by yetineti

[Sugarcoat]

5 hours ago, yetineti said:

No, the rocks are aware. Everything is aware

What does awareness mean here?

[Sugarcoat]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The point is being able to change the perspective, this is the step 1. 

Try some LSD, but very little, 5 mcg, and a single toke of weed, just that. Then your mind softens a bit without entering a psychedelic trip. Then meditation is extremely easier. The shift from perspective to "no perspective" is perceived absolutely clearly, and the first time it's very strange and intimidating. Reality seems liquid; there's no point of reference. When you get used to that, it becomes normal. You are reality, not a person perceiving reality. Then, from there, you can go deeper.

 

 

Thanks for the tip

[Sugarcoat]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Sugarcoat another thing, I can tell exactly what happens after death. Ok ok, you all, come to tell me mental masturbator🤣🤣. But it's absolutely clear and obvious, not a mental theory, just what is obvious realizing what reality is

This is super totally absolutely obvious. It is absolutely impossible for there to be a break in existence, in the flow of form. It is not a possibility, since formlessness does not exist. And form, as we see, is. There is no break; the break does not exist. There is fluid continuity without a break. And like absolutely everything that flows, it does so within a process, not from a break. There are no breaks because there are no limits; they are merely apparent. Experience is not only continuous in the fact that it is not cut off, but it is continuous in its structural basis. It changes, but from continuity. Every line of existence of the infinite lines or perspectives of reality, have infinite continuity. Let's find a comfortable position because this is infinite. it's absolutely and totally inevitable and you can see it with total clarity 

I mean it makes sense because let’s say you’re in a coma for years it’s like no time passed for you when you wake up 

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, Davino said:

@yetineti Please argument your position, this is about pure philosophy, getting personal is of no use to reach Truth.

 

It's quite sad and frustrating the difficulty to find anyone open-minded. I know that most people that are in spirituality are religious and just want to grab beliefs to feel safe and in control, but even that it's frustrating 

6 hours ago, yetineti said:

Fantasy

Deep argument. 

Edited 22 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Sugarcoat said:

I mean it makes sense because let’s say you’re in a coma for years it’s like no time passed for you when you wake up 

The point is that you can't be in coma for ever because it would be a limit. A break in the becoming. In fact you are in coma never. The becoming is transformation, it can't stop because if would be a total limit in the reality. It's ontologically impossible, anything that is in the absence of limits is unlimited, is the absence of limits itself. It could be seen from the logic and directly 

Edited 20 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, Davino said:

In a nutshell, I don't see those distinctions you point. For me there's this present universal flow of conciousness or experience, it's like an ocean, wha trying to pin point, it's a whole flow of life of pure consciousness. Stop beating around the bush, it's fucking consciousness.

Yes experience and conciousness are unlimited, I agree. What I pointed is that If you remain in the perspective that reality is fundamentally experience, you remain in the position of a conscious observer of reality. This is a center. You are observing reality; it's inevitable. The shift is taking a step back and opening the focus, collapsing the observer and the experience. Then there is no experience, there is reality, and change becomes irrelevant; it is arising that occurs. It becomes transparent. Then the absolute truth (to call it somehow) manifests, the substance from which change is made. This could be "defined " as absence of limits, that implies absolute potential, that is perceived as plenitude, positive push, absolute glory. You could say that this is just a subjective perception, and it is, but same time the absolute potential is the source of everything, is what you could call God. 

Anyway, maybe we are talking about the same in different ways 

Edited 20 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, yetineti said:

@Breakingthewall

Reality is grounded and centered. It doesn’t change.

Then the infinity has a center: you. And a ground, a limit.

Well, that's exactly what supposedly should be dissolved to open yourself to your true nature 

Edited 20 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

@Davino

Look this and tell me what do you think. Btw, if those ideas are let's say not welcome, just tell me. I don't want to contradict Leo because it's his place, and I see value in his teachings, I just want to nuance the perspective that's necessary to open up to the absolute 

Then:

The point is that if your perspective is that you are conciousness and conciousness metamorphoses into the things that appear, these things are unreal, as solipsism proclaims. Then when you say you've realized God, divinity, this God would only be an appearance that consciousness takes on. But then, this consciousness that takes on coherent forms would need to be God to take on those forms. But if that consciousness were aware of itself as God, this very fact would be a mirage, another creation of consciousness. This impossible paradox is resolved in a very simple way: consciousness is simply perception of change from form, and when this perception occurs, it can turn inward and perceive its true nature. The fact that it is perception does not imply that it is an illusion; it implies that it is relative. Relative is not equivalent to false; it is simply relative, like any perception.

Edited 20 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

The point is that you can't be in coma for ever because it would be a limit. A break in the becoming. In fact you are in coma never. The becoming is transformation, it can't stop because if would be a total limit in the reality. It's ontologically impossible, anything that is in the absence of limits is unlimited, is the absence of limits itself. It could be seen from the logic and directly 

And one particular form cant be forever either or? For example could infinity create a reality where there is a conscious being that goes through torture for all of eternity

Why am I even asking this, if you answer no that doesn’t make it much better because 500 million years of torture isn’t eternal so then that could happen

😂😂

Edited 19 hours ago by Sugarcoat

[Sugarcoat]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's quite sad and frustrating the difficulty to find anyone open-minded.

It’s hard for people to be open minded partly due to attachments

[Breakingthewall]

29 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

And one particular form cant be forever either or? For example could infinity create a reality where there is a conscious being that goes through torture for all of eternity

Why am I even asking this, if you answer no that doesn’t make it much better because 500 million years of torture isn’t eternal so then that could happen

😂😂

I don't think so, when observing, it seems that reality tends toward expansion, and in this tendency, moments of dissonance occur until they equalize. It seems that everything is cyclical and restarts from an energetic imprint, also seems obvious that everything has to be coherent with the whole. This is speculation. You could call it mental masturbation or whatever, but that's what it seems like when observing.

Another speculation: maybe if you achieve the absolute perspective in this cycle that perspective don't dissapear after death/restart. It seems so when that happens 

Edited 19 hours ago by Breakingthewall