Reality vs. Consciousness (Chicken-Egg Problem)

[yetineti]

4 minutes ago, Davino said:

Even further, Reality is identical to consciousness, hence finally I understand that Reality is an Infinite Conscious Universal Mind, called God.

@Davino

 

 

Edited Friday at 08:30 PM by yetineti

[Sugarcoat]

49 minutes ago, yetineti said:

It is a state of awareness that supersedes sleep, enlightenment, etc.

The general notion is that even when you are sleeping or think you are unaware—  There is even an awareness of that.

 

Is that some mystical state one can reach?

50 minutes ago, yetineti said:

The whole point is the thing that feels awake— even as you read this— never goes away.

It is fundamental to all of reality.  Rocks, trees, birds, plants, animals, people, waterfalls, politics, video games, television, food, junk food, bad feelings, good feelings, sex, abstinence, pain, suffering, fruits, vegetables, up, down, etc..

All these things come after consciousness not before.

 

Well I feel awake, as the person. I thought that was illusion? I’m having a hard time isolating a sense of awareness that is beyond the self

How is it fundamental to rocks etc? They aren’t conscious 

You seem to implicitly say that all there is , is what occurs in our present experience, thus you say consciousness comes first. I have been thinking about that. I don’t know what’s true in that regard. I think I would need a deep insight into reality to know

54 minutes ago, yetineti said:

 

They’re not technically, but you can see them as separate if you’d like.  It may prohibit you from seeing what I’m saying though.

@Sugarcoat

 

 

Well the sense of separation is not something I chose to create. It’s just how reality seems right now from this perspective. I can understand how it can act like a veil. 
 

 

55 minutes ago, yetineti said:

 

Well, it’s one thing to realize that everything is the same thing, but it is important to recognize that whatever everything is must be true otherwise it could not be. This gets confusing because it includes falsehood as well.

@Sugarcoat

 

 

I don’t really get this but it’s ok. Just a detail

[yetineti]

14 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Is that some mystical state one can reach?

Yes

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Well I feel awake, as the person. I thought that was illusion? I’m having a hard time isolating a sense of awareness that is beyond the self

The person is the illusion. The being awake part and the being a self part is not.  Your self is not human or your thoughts or your feelings.  Yourself experiences those things.

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How is it fundamental to rocks etc? They aren’t conscious

Rocks are conscious.  Everything is conscious.

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You seem to implicitly say that all there is , is what occurs in our present experience, thus you say consciousness comes first. I have been thinking about that. I don’t know what’s true in that regard. I think I would need a deep insight into reality to know.

That is what I’m saying, yes.  Do not try and realize this without understanding the implications of realizing it though.  It is a radical shift.

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Well the sense of separation is not something I chose to create.

I would suggest this is a limiting belief. 

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It’s just how reality seems right now from this perspective. I can understand how it can act like a veil.

Perspectives on reality can change. You might have more control than you think.

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I don’t really get this but it’s ok. Just a detail

Yeah, don’t worry about it.

Edited Friday at 09:22 PM by yetineti

[Sugarcoat]

11 minutes ago, yetineti said:

Yes

 

I can be awake while my body is asleep during sleep paralysis. Also the mind is kind of in a dreamy/half asleep state too while I’m conscious. I have had spiritual experiences during sleep paralysis. But I guess it’s not the same as what you mean. But if you are aware of deep sleep doesn’t that go against the very definition of what sleep is?

13 minutes ago, yetineti said:

The person is the illusion. The being awake part and the being a self part is not.  Your self is not human or your thoughts or your feelings.  Yourself experiences those things.

 

Sometimes I cannot really tell what state of consciousness I am in. I have had profound , all altering permanent shifts in my life. But I can’t pin point what changed. It’s like I can’t tell if I’m just experiencing a human ego as emptiness, awareness, or if I’m stuck in the illusion. 
 

Some seem to make non duality and no self synonyms. Meanwhile others talk about how there can be a sense of self while one is enlightened simultaneously 

Maybe me having doubts is a sign I’m still in the illusion. 
 

Because I heard someone say something I like : “non duality is this moment, without the doubt about it”

16 minutes ago, yetineti said:

 

Rocks are conscious.  Everything is conscious.

 

Do you mean when we are aware of a rock it’s like it is aware of itself?

17 minutes ago, yetineti said:

 

That is what I’m saying, yes.  Do not try and realize this without understanding the implications of realizing it though.  It is a radical shift.

It doesn’t sound scary to me

18 minutes ago, yetineti said:

I would suggest this is a limiting belief. 

Perspectives on reality can change. You might have more control than you think.

It seems I can for example stop thinking for a very brief moment if I focus my attention on a sensory experience intensely.

I can also control a thought. Like right now I could make myself think of a pink elefant

But when I do think usually, it feels like the thoughts just come by themselves, being generated by my brain.

Also I feel my sense of self is just here. Not something I am doing

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, yetineti said:

If reality was beyond definition— that be would be what defines it, ironically..

 

That won't be a definition but the absence of definition

If you contemplate it, you'll have to admit that consciousness is the perception of change. Without change, there is no becoming; there is no consciousness, because consciousness needs contrast to exist. How can something be fundamental if it depends on something else? That's called relative.

 

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Some seem to make non duality and no self synonyms. Meanwhile others talk about how there can be a sense of self while one is enlightened simultaneously 

Absence of self means absence of center. The self is precisely the center, it's just a perception, the perception of the limits. It's impossible to see it until you break the limits. Then you are the same than now, it's not like you dissapear, only that there is no center, you are unlimited and the existence is arising and you are that, not a observer but the reality itself. Then conciousness is meaningless because conciousness implies being aware of. There is not being aware, it's just the reality. If you perceive that there is the fact of being aware it's because you are perceiving a center.

@yetineti  don't you see my point? 

The point is not saying that reality is not conciousness and saying that it's anything else, is understanding that conciousness implies a center, even you think that it's unlimited. It's subtle, but it's the door that closes. 

Edited Friday at 09:53 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Davino said:

Little experiment: notice your present experience.

The breath.

The body.

The space around you

Let's see if you see this : 

the fact of perceiving that you are experiencing is the door that closes. You could say that no, that you are the experience itself, but the word: experience ,implies an experiencer. The reality is not experience, is the reality, experience if how the reality is configured now. If the experiencer and the experience collapses, there's not more experience, it's just open. You will laugh loud. Just now, exactly now, the reality in infinitely open and you are that. It's absolutely unthinkable. You could call it God, i prefer call it total, you could also call it you .The experience is an arising that is happening, and it's configuration produces the appearance of an experience, but it's just what appears. The reality is not what appears, is what allows the appearance due it limitlessness. 

If you acced to the whole the experience has no center, there is not experiencer then there's not an experience, it's an arising. It's absolutely and radically different 

Edited Friday at 10:05 PM by Breakingthewall

[Sugarcoat]

16 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Absence of self means absence of center

I can kinda confirm this. Because I’ve been in almost selfless states and it’s truly like there’s almost no center

 

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The self is precisely the center, it's just a perception, the perception of the limits. It's impossible to see it until you break the limits. Then you are the same than now, it's not like you dissapear, only that there is no center, you are unlimited and the existence is arising and you are that, not a observer but the reality itself. Then conciousness is meaningless because conciousness implies being aware of. There is not being aware, it's just the reality. If you perceive that there is the fact of being aware it's because you are perceiving a center.

@yetineti  don't you see my point? 

The point is not saying that reality is not conciousness and saying that it's anything else, is understanding that conciousness implies a center, even you think that it's unlimited. It's subtle, but it's the door that closes. 

I resonate with this but why isn’t reality nothingness when there’s no center. Isn’t limitlessness nothingness?

[Breakingthewall]

It's something very subtle. There's a final door, when there is no longer fear or attachment to thought, which is made only of perspective. It's like a game of mirrors. At a given moment, you change perspective, then you realize that you are not in a perspective but that you are the reality. Period. You are not experiencing. Experiencing is doing something, receiving something, perceiving something. You are that, period. You are the fact of the appearance of perception, the totality of what appears, its final fundament and its apparent form. You are everything, the totality. Then you can enter your final nature, your divine, absolute, total nature, the total glory that manifest due your limitlessness. That's the point; the rest is just a matter of perspective.

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Sugarcoat said:

I can kinda confirm this. Because I’ve been in almost selfless states and it’s truly like there’s almost no center

 

I resonate with this but why isn’t reality nothingness when there’s no center. Isn’t limitlessness nothingness?

No, it's the absolute glory. It's unthinkable, if you step outside the closing perspective and become absolute reality, there is still another door. Perceiving yourself as absolute reality is not perceiving your essence, your nature. If experience is completely shattered and you access your nature, veiled by form, the whole explodes. The fact that here and now there are no limits manifests as unlimited totality, absolute potential. The end of the search, total power, total life, the fullness that burns you and threatens to disintegrate you if you don't return to form.

[Sugarcoat]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

No, it's the absolute glory. It's unthinkable, if you step outside the closing perspective and become absolute reality, there is still another door. Perceiving yourself as absolute reality is not perceiving your essence, your nature. If experience is completely shattered and you access your nature, veiled by form, the whole explodes. The fact that here and now there are no limits manifests as unlimited totality, absolute potential. The end of the search, total power, total life, the fullness that burns you and threatens to disintegrate you if you don't return to form.

So it’s like both nothing and everything 

Lmao me and my little self sitting here pondering these things. The absolute glory I wanna see the absolute glory 

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

So it’s like both nothing and everything 

Lmao me and my little self sitting here pondering these things. The absolute glory I wanna see the absolute glory 

The absolute glory is just the absence of limits. 

The fact of form carries limits; it's like saying that anything, a glass, a stone, is made of energy. If you were to join that stone with antimatter, it would release all its energy. If you break all limits, energy is unlimited; it's not exactly energy, it is the total inexhaustible potential that arises from limitlessness. 

 enlightened in the mind  means the change of perspective, be the totality. Enlightenment in the heart means the dissolution of the form and the openess to the substance 

Edited Friday at 10:32 PM by Breakingthewall

[Sugarcoat]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The absolute glory is just the absence of limits. 

The fact of form carries limits; it's like saying that anything, a glass, a stone, is made of energy. If you were to join that stone with antimatter, it would release all its energy. If you break all limits, energy is unlimited; it's not exactly energy, it is the total inexhaustible potential that arises from limitlessness. 

Is limitation just apparent, there being no actual real limits/separation?

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Is limitation just apparent, there being no actual real limits/separation?

They are. The form exist. What is apparent is the perspective of the experiencer, but as appearance it's real, and the form itself is relative movement of the reality, manifestation that arise. The real dissolution of the form is death, the end of the existence, understanding existence as manifestation of the reality. But manifestation always happens, because absence of manifestation doesn't happen, is out of the "happening". The nature of reality beyond the form can manifest if the form becomes transparent to itself, but there is always form, that means, perception or conciousness. They exist, but they are not the reality, are a perspective in the reality. Are real, but as a perspective 

Now people will tell me that this is mental masturbation, but can't be more clear.

Edited Friday at 10:44 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

Of course, divine nature, absolute, living, and full, is perceived through form. Without form, there is no difference between everything and nothing; there is no "glory," no fullness, no energy, no nothing. But the fact is that there is form. This small detail changes everything. There is form, and there always will be, because formlessness is not

[Breakingthewall]

40 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

So it’s like both nothing and everything 

Without form, reality is absolutely nothing, but "without form" doesn't exist. It can't exist. An instant of form is eternity, because if there is "no form" afterward, it doesn't pass. There will be form again. When? Always.

Therefore, reality is absolute glory from form. And from formlessness, it is nothing. Formlessness is not, therefore manifested reality is absolute glory always. Unmanifested reality is absolutely nothing never. Both are the two sides of the reality, but only one exist 

So when this form disappears, when you die, another form automatically arises, immediately. Only that form isn't me and this form. It's another form, but its nature is the same. What I am is that nature.

Edited Friday at 11:05 PM by Breakingthewall

[Sugarcoat]

@Breakingthewall

Nicely put

Do you feel contemplation has ever made a difference to you? Because for me I feel I can contemplate reality how much I want but nothing changes. It doesn’t change my brain. It’s like I need something like extreme meditation or psychedelics

Edited Friday at 11:15 PM by Sugarcoat

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Sugarcoat said:

@Breakingthewall

Nicely put

Do you feel contemplation has ever made a difference to you? Because for me I feel I can contemplate reality how much I want but nothing changes. It doesn’t change my brain.

The point is being able to change the perspective, this is the step 1. 

Try some LSD, but very little, 5 mcg, and a single toke of weed, just that. Then your mind softens a bit without entering a psychedelic trip. Then meditation is extremely easier. The shift from perspective to "no perspective" is perceived absolutely clearly, and the first time it's very strange and intimidating. Reality seems liquid; there's no point of reference. When you get used to that, it becomes normal. You are reality, not a person perceiving reality. Then, from there, you can go deeper.

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

@Sugarcoat another thing, I can tell exactly what happens after death. Ok ok, you all, come to tell me mental masturbator🤣🤣. But it's absolutely clear and obvious, not a mental theory, just what is obvious realizing what reality is

This is super totally absolutely obvious. It is absolutely impossible for there to be a break in existence, in the flow of form. It is not a possibility, since formlessness does not exist. And form, as we see, is. There is no break; the break does not exist. There is fluid continuity without a break. And like absolutely everything that flows, it does so within a process, not from a break. There are no breaks because there are no limits; they are merely apparent. Experience is not only continuous in the fact that it is not cut off, but it is continuous in its structural basis. It changes, but from continuity. Every line of existence of the infinite lines or perspectives of reality, have infinite continuity. Let's find a comfortable position because this is infinite. it's absolutely and totally inevitable and you can see it with total clarity 

Edited Friday at 11:29 PM by Breakingthewall

[yetineti]

4 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

But if you are aware of deep sleep doesn’t that go against the very definition of what sleep is?

No. Everything is imagined. That doesn’t change anything. Sleep is still sleep.

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Do you mean when we are aware of a rock it’s like it is aware of itself?

No, the rocks are aware. Everything is aware. There is no difference between anything, including you and a rock.

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Also I feel my sense of self is just here. Not something I am doing

It is. It just isn’t the self you think it is. It’s not the human. It’s all of us and everything. That is you.

@Sugarcoat

Edited Saturday at 01:54 AM by yetineti