I Escaped a Cult - Monastic Academy for the Preservation of Life on Earth Review

[Consilience]

@zurew All of the points you're raising are worth holding, but for me the difference is I literally just see through the narcissism and move on. At MAPLE there were literal survival based consequences for not being lock step with leadership or the head teacher. The power dynamics of an internet forum, particularly where Leo's one main offering has been a single $250 dollar course and nothing else, is extremely chill compared to so many spiritual groups.

Moreover, arguments and internet narcissism without any consequences are dramatically different than everything I just listed out and arguments and internet narcissism are not mind control. Being very clear on these mind control mechanisms is incredibly important to be clear on, for your own safety. Being able to spot them from a mile away when encountering a real cult leader could make or break someone's whole path. 

I do see your points around the group think, echo-chamber like community Actualized.org can fall into is problematic. 

1 hour ago, zurew said:

but if you are lock step with Leo's epistemology and all of his spiritual views, then you are free from group think and you are exercising your sovereignty.

This in particular is a really good point.

However speaking from my own experience, I feel entirely at peace holding fundamental, core disagreements with Leo, regarding the nature of the spiritual path, where its going, hell even the nature of God. Based on Leo's very standards, if you apply them, have led me out of the group think the community can and does regularly fall into. I feel no need to argue or fight... I had that phase of my relationship with this place, but Im not having my power or life energy extracted because I disagree. And furthermore, by virtue of this being a forum at all I'm allowed to express my views, which is more than could be said about MAPLE. 

Leo's point about being clear about the distinction between real cults and Actualized.org is actually a matter of safety. There are very specific, precise, and subtle mechanisms real cult leaders weaponize as expressions of mind control that are distinctly absent in Actualized.org, EVEN if or when Actualized.org is expressing echo chamber like qualities or social games of who agrees with Leo. It's truly not the same, and I'm saying that as someone who has had to spent considerable amount of time slowly re-wiring my nervous system after long term exposure to these techniques of mind control Leo lists out in his cult psychology video. 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Consilience

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

As someone with direct experience, I would agree with Leo here. Actualized.org is not a cult. 

Here is a list of mind control techniques MAPLE would employ that are distinct and not present from Actualized.org, some obviously because structurally MAPLE is residential vs Actualized.org is online. But this should help you understand what Leo is referring to. 

This community scores on literally all the points that are not "in-person" (except the meditation/chanting one unless you want to stretch it into recommendations to take mind-altering substances to "know what I'm talking about").

 

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

Relentless Us vs. Them framing - MAPLE creates division of itself with the rest of the world through teachings on how terrible and destructive the world is while offering a new kind of "us" identity as saviors, heros, a kind of "we're the chosen one's to save the world from itself" 

Virtually all of Leo's blog posts are about how destructive ("egoic, self-deceived, low-consciousness, stupid, unintelligent, corrupt) the world is and he routinely implies his teachings are an/the antidote (e.g. "Conscious Politics", "Pure Philosophy"). They use highly divisive and emotionally charged language and are highly judgemental, repetitive. I personally am repelled from reading them for exactly that reason.

 

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

Emotional Abuse - Regularly the head teacher would use Renzai Zen style outburts of anger or disorienting language.

The reaction to this thread is a cult study on its own.

Also, in your thread, it was implied I was being disrespectful for having a different opinion and that I "don't deserve his teachings". Emotionally charged communication.

 

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

 Gas Lighting - MAPLE's head teacher had an insanely proficient ability to gas light, divert and control narrative frames, he was an elite level salesman, wordsmith, with an incredibly sharp and fast mind that most people simply do not have the intellectual ability to keep up with

Instead of simply addressing my points and showing through argument, Leo will routinely say words like "you don't understand", "you don't know what you're talking about", like in this thread and the other cult thread I linked. It functions to remove my autonomy and belief in my own mental faculties. Statements like "I'm the only authority on epistemology" (see the other cult thread) reinforces that.

 

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

One on one interviews with the head teacher - difficult to explain but the eye gazing, the candle, incense,  the overall ambience of these interviews were designed to facilitate deep intimacy between teacher and student and from that openness, one's nervous system is incredibly open to subtle forms of suggestion and manipulation. It's not that genuine teachings weren't offered during interviews, but there were also subtle distortions that would add up over time as continued exposure compounded

PMs when I'm acting out and being critical, like here, trying to "talk it out". Happened multiple of times. No incense or eye contact, but a different level of proximity.

 

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

 Regular instances of public shaming - this very easily can hijack the very primal parts of the mind where survival is linked to group belonging and falling in line with the collective

The emotionally charged communication and autonomy-deriding language happens in a public forum inducing public shaming. Other members will routinely adopt the same style and gang up on you.

 

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

Explicit and regular teachings explicitly around not trusting one's thoughts and feelings - this functionally serves to sever one's self off from inner knowing and inner authority

"You only care about survival, your mind runs on self-deception and self-bias, of course you will disagree with me, that's expected".

 

6 hours ago, Consilience said:

The biggest reason I don't believe Actualized.org is a cult though is because of how explicitly Leo teaches to take responsibility for one's direct realization, and how much he teaches different frames, techniques, and strategies for cultivating individual personal autonomy and power. Cults are nearly always going to be the other way around; mechanisms will exist to syphon power away from the individual and to the top of the hierarchy. Conversely, it has been my experience Leo is sincerely trying to use his hierarchy as the YouTuber and website moderator to move power from the hierarchy into the individual. This distinct flow of power is why I don't presently consider Actualized.org a cult.

I would suggest this is a too dichotomous framing. Most sophisticated cults teach you such techniques, that's their appeal. And ironically they tend to use those techniques to protect and validate the ills of the cult. The virtues and the ills coincide, they are not mutually exclusive, and they often work in tandem to maintain the cult identity.

That's what make cults so tricky. It's a tug of war between seeing the benefits and the ills. I'm sure you can find autonomy-increasing teachings in MAPLE, as you can in Bentinho Massaro's community, or in the Discord I was a part of. "But it's more ills than benefits in those cases". Well, let's assume you can even make such a distinction, does that warrant a categorical distinction (cult vs not-cult)? If the difference is only in degree, then maybe that's all it is.

Edited 10 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Osaid]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The reaction to this thread is a cult study on its own.

Holy shit, great thread topic. 

Maybe even deserves a pin so everyone is up to speed.

Strange that Leo seems to backtrack, as if it's not the same stuff he teaches or spiels about even to this day. The egocentrism, the idea that "I'm more conscious than you", etc.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

It doesn't quite make sense to me to stick to rigid ideas of what a cult is.

As technology evolves our definitions move due to tech changing how we interact, altering dynamics and behaviours.

A cult describes a cluster of social dynamics / behaviours.

I treat it less as a binary and more a spectrum.

[Carl-Richard]

I will add that in the Discord I was a part of, I can't remember ever feeling personally gaslit, shamed or threatened by personal interactions with the leader. But I still felt like calling it a cult, because the beliefs were just that wacky (negative energies, entities, weird practices around that, doomsday tendencies at the end).

[PenguinPablo]

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Dude. What the fuck am I reading?

No, that's not mind control.

You guys still don't understand what a cult is after dozens of documentaries, videos, books, and things I shared.

Constantly implying that I run a cult is disrespectful. It makes me not even want to teach you anything.

By watering down what a cult is you are actually helping real cults.

The boy who cried wolf.

"Who knows what a wolf is? Maybe this rabbit is a wolf? Who can say? After all, it has 4 legs and fur, just like a wolf! Wolf! Wolf! Wolfffff!"

If this was ever cult, it certainly isn't one now. Just a bunch of people chatting. In fact so many people I see making threads challenging Leo and doing there own personal investigation. I don't really see people taking things at face value but rather trying to sort Life out for themselves. 

 

[Wilhelm44]

It's so silly to yell 'cult' just because the teacher isn't tiptoeing around your realizations. Where are you going to go to any well known teacher like Adyashanti or whoever, and tell them, you are wrong buddy, and then they just go, oh yeah okay i guess you are right.

If you're that confident in your pov, then start ur own thing, and see who resonates. 

[zurew]

51 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

It's so silly to yell 'cult' just because the teacher isn't tiptoeing around your realizations.

Notice that you try to  ignore all the other parts of the criticism and you cant look at it holistically so that you can downplay things.

Its so silly that you dont even try even the slightest to try to engage with the whole criticism.

Some of us here are like "here is a list of things that applies to actualized.org and all of these things in conjuction being applicable to it makes it a cult" and then you are like "okay here is 1 thing from that list and let me now pretend that they think that that 1 thing is sufficient to categorize actualized.org a cult and that there is nothing else on that list".

 

But regardless, I dont have issue with labeling a bunch of other spiritual groups as cults ,so I dont take that entailment of my stance to be a problem.

Edited 2 hours ago by zurew

[Wilhelm44]

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

Notice that you try to  ignore all the other parts of the criticism and you cant look at it holistically so that you can downplay things.

Its so silly that you dont even try even the slightest to try to engage with the whole criticism.

Some of us here are like "here is a list of things that applies to actualized.org and all of these things in conjuction being applicable to it makes it a cult" and then you are like "okay here is 1 thing from that list and let me now pretend that they think that that 1 thing is sufficient to categorize actualized.org a cult and that there is nothing else on that list"

And that one thing i mentioned triggered you for some reason.

If this place is a cult then no place isn't. It's just an online forum for God's sake, you're free.

No one said Leo was perfect, but Jesus man, calling this a cult is a bit of a stretch.

[zurew]

Just now, Wilhelm44 said:

And that one thing i mentioned triggered you for some reason.

it triggers me that you are not honest enough to try to engage with the actual crticism and you are here to downplay things (you know, like a good cult member doing work and freely sweeping for the leader).

[Wilhelm44]

Just now, zurew said:

it triggers me that you are not honest enough to try to engage with the actual crticism and you are here to downplay things (you know, like a good cult member doing work and freely sweeping for the leader).

Oh God, please remind me, what is the actual criticism in a nutshell ?

[Wilhelm44]

So scary being in this cult bro. Im not sure how I'm going to get out of it.

Edited 2 hours ago by Wilhelm44

[zurew]

8 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Oh God, please remind me, what is the actual criticism in a nutshell ?

That rhetorical question already shows me that you disinterested in actually engaging and you dont give a fuck about this and you only give a fuck about sweeping.

I dont know what you think you are doing here if you dont bother to even read through a few pages of this thread (or let alone the "Leo" thread)before you chime in with your completely uninformed stance on the matter and where you pick out one single bit from the criticism and then pretend that you managed to respond to the meat of the criticism.

Edited 2 hours ago by zurew

[Wilhelm44]

Just now, zurew said:

That rhetoric question already shows me that you disinterested in actually engaging and you dont give a fuck about this and you only give a fuck about sweeping.

I dont know what you think you are doing here if you dont bother to even read through a few pages of this thread (or let alone the "Leo" thread)before you chime in with your completely uninformed stance on the matter and where you pick out one single bit from the criticism and pretend that you managed to respond to the meat of the criticism.

Of course, this is so serious, that it's too much effort for you just to spell out in a nutshell why you feel this is a cult. 

I asked unborn tao the same strait forward question and all he could do was to refer me to some teal swan thread.

I bet you wont answer me either. 

 

 

[Wilhelm44]

33 minutes ago, zurew said:

Notice that you try to  ignore all the other parts of the criticism and you cant look at it holistically so that you can downplay things.

Its so silly that you dont even try even the slightest to try to engage with the whole criticism.

Some of us here are like "here is a list of things that applies to actualized.org and all of these things in conjuction being applicable to it makes it a cult" and then you are like "okay here is 1 thing from that list and let me now pretend that they think that that 1 thing is sufficient to categorize actualized.org a cult and that there is nothing else on that list".

 

But regardless, I dont have issue with labeling a bunch of other spiritual groups as cults ,so I dont take that entailment of my stance to be a problem.

So you are acknowledging that I successfully addressed at least one of your points of criticism. Bring on the rest. (I assume I was successfull because i heard no counter argument from you. All I heard was annoyance at me addressing one point at a time.)

[zurew]

9 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Of course, this is so serious, that it's too much effort for you just to spell out in a nutshell why you feel this is a cult. 

I asked unborn tao the same strait forward question and all he could do was to refer me to some teal swan thread.

I bet you wont answer me either. 

Dude just on this very page (not just in this thread) you can find more criticism bits than what you presented in your initial reply (just take a look at Carl replies just on this page).

You are either dishonest or lazy or both, but one thing is for sure , you dont give the slightest fuck about any of this.

[zurew]

8 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

So you are acknowledging that I successfully addressed at least one of your points of criticism

No you havent, because the claim never was that that one thing on its own is problematic or that its sufficient to make it a cult.

Try to actually turn on your brain for once.

You are like dude at a murder scene saying "wait hahaha do you think blood being on one guy definitely makes the guy a killer" - no it isnt, but if that fact is true in conjuction with that guy having a knife in his hand, telling you that he did the murder, having background info about the guy that he hated the other guy who  got murdered, then given all of that info - the "having blood on him" fact gets an entirely different light and weight.

This is not a kind of thing that you can just shot down going bit by bit, you need to attack the whole thing.

Edited 1 hour ago by zurew

[Wilhelm44]

7 minutes ago, zurew said:

Dude just on this very page (not just in this thread) you can find more criticism bits than what you presented in your initial reply (just take a look at Carl replies just on this page).

You are either dishonest or lazy or both, but one thing is for sure , you dont give the slightest fuck about any of this.

I grant you that, Leo is rough around the edges, when it comes to responding to people with different realizations than him. But think about it, what does he have to gain by doing so. He'll probably just piss some people off who end up leaving. He's not nefariously trying to manipulate you to stay here forever. Cults tend to live together, and manipulation is used to keep the thing going. Seems like all the behaviors you guys are complaining about, will just cause some people to leave. That doesn't make sense if you really wanted to have a cult, now does it ?

[Wilhelm44]

7 minutes ago, zurew said:

No you havent, because the claim never was that that one thing on its own is problematic or that its sufficient to make it a cult.

Try to actually turn on your brain for once.

You are like dude at a murder scene saying "wait hahaha do you think blood being on one guy definitely makes the guy a killer" - no it isnt, but if that fact is true in conjuction with that guy having a knife in his hand, telling you that he did the murder, having background info about the guy that he hated the other guy who  got murdered, then given all of that info - the "having blood on him" fact gets an entirely different light and weight.

Bro I addressed one of your points and you didn't respond. I assure you my brain is working fine. You're the one who's beginning to sound like a bit of a dick now. 

[zurew]

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