What is femininity ?

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol.

Femininity is not grounded, it is airy-fairy. Which is why women do not care about facts or logic, and why female spirituality is New Age woo.

A Zen master beating you with a stick -- that's grounded.

You're not understanding what groundedness and loftiness means in this context, if you believe that women are loftier than men. (First off, this isn't about male and female... it's about Masculine and Feminine, which supersede yet inform human gender)

The Feminine is the physical and worldly. Grounded means that which is grounded within 3-D reality. It's more accepting of ordinariness and mortality.

The Masculine is the spiritual and non-physical. It's the mind and all its abstractions. It's geared towards trying to overcome and become more super-human and immortal. Many inventions come out of the Masculine loftiness.

Consider who is more grounded... a mother just living for the day and tending to daily tasks and doing ordinary things with her kids... or Elon Musk trying to take us to Mars or Peter Thiel dreaming of making himself immortal by putting his consciousness into AI?

The reality is that men (as a group) are significantly loftier than women... which is sometimes good and sometimes bad... as is the case with all of these dichotomies.

But it's important to look at these more as polarities rather than indications of what men and women are like. Otherwise, one will mix up gender norms with polarity... which will lead to a poor understanding.

[Emerald]

15 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Articulating masculinity/femininity dichotomy around all of those ones is false.

I can take every correlation you did and do the demonstration that the opposite is true.

How can one demonstrate the opposite is true?

These are understandings that I've gleaned from my medicine journeys in my ability to pick up on these subtle qualities... as well as reading Jungian authors and learning to understand archetypal symbolism in literature and in imagery.

Remember, these are not about gender norms... or about men and women very much at all.

Sometimes men (as a whole group) will have more of an Feminine archetypal quality than women have (as a whole group)... as these qualities are only named Masculine and Feminine as a concession... because they are the closest words in the English language to describe these qualities.

But they are named for this because human beings understand these polarities through a gendered lens... but not because these qualities are actually gendered.

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Consider who is more grounded... a mother just living for the day and tending to daily tasks and doing ordinary things with her kids... or Elon Musk trying to take us to Mars or Peter Thiel dreaming of making himself immortal by putting his consciousness into AI?

This is a poor selection of examples which muddle the issue.

The feminine is fundamentally ungrounded. Which is why it needs the masculine to ground it.

Women's minds live in emotional fantasy. Men provide the logical factual ground.

Anyone who's dated a feminine woman knows how ungrounded she is. That's why women are called hot & crazy.

A grounded woman is basically a man. These are the women who run corporations. Hilary Clinton is a grounded woman. She's got bigger balls and me.

The reason dealing with young hot women is so annoying is because they are ungrounded emotional messes. Women do not care about nor deal with truth, which makes them ungrounded. Men are forced to deal with truth or they starve to death or killed in battle.

Your understanding of spirituality is inverted. Masculine spirituality is the definition of ground. Truth IS ground. The masculine is pursuing ultimate grounding which the feminine cares nothing about. Your family's survival is not truth nor ground, it's Maya.

The pursuit of God is not an abstract flight of fancy, it is the most sober, grounded way of existence. The feminine is too chaotic to want that kind of grounding.

Edited yesterday at 03:25 PM by Leo Gura

[Schizophonia]

18 minutes ago, Emerald said:

How can one demonstrate the opposite is true?

Leo just did it with one of them; he gave a counter-example.

And actually the counter-example he gave was a pretty general observation, while you talked in response about elon musk who wants t go to mars.

But is Elon Musk the average men ? No it's just a men qnd btw wanting go to mars isn't not being anchored, it's extraordinary but not particularly not being anchored.

A drunken homeless who shouts on the street isn't extraordinary but isn't anchored neither.

I have already spoken with you about the dichotomy "Earthy vs spiritual" and you didn't explain to me why then most spiritual guys were actually more soft than average, and very physical men were more androgenous than average.

You're going to talk about gender norms, so you're begging the question out of your ass(no offense), and when you're contradicted with examples, it's "gender norms."
I'm saying that you're the one establishing relative gender norms with all these dichotomies, when there are plenty of examples to the contrary, when they are not simply the majority.

Quote

These are understandings that I've gleaned from my medicine journeys in my ability to pick up on these subtle qualities... as well as reading Jungian authors and learning to understand archetypal symbolism in literature and in imagery.

How

 

Edited yesterday at 03:23 PM by Schizophonia

[Xonas Pitfall]

To be completely honest, a lot of the time, the “male” version of "hard Grrr logic and facts" 💪💣🔥 just means excluding empathy from your deductions or not knowing how to handle and consider emotional input calmly or properly. That’s part of why we see significantly more male aggressors, predators, abusers, domestic violence cases, and suicidality.

To live in a grounded and truly rational way, and to make sound, logical conclusions, you need perspective, and empathy with emotional awareness is part of that. You can’t 🙈 ignore these perspectives, just like how science often tries to ignore anything "metaphysical" or "woo" when investigating reality, in an effort to make it all seem more like “hard science”, step-by-step as if that alone will lead to pure logic or pure insight. In fact, I feel like many people stereotypically associate this sphere of spirituality, being, experience, openness to the metaphysical, intangible, and mystical, as more feminine in nature, which is an important aspect of realizing God.

So I’m not sure the argument about men being “more logical” really holds up that strongly. Sure, maybe women are more socially conditioned not to stand out or are more prone to groupthink, I can acknowledge that. But what about all the men who follow herd-like ideologies like the red pill? Why are we ignoring those men? There are millions of them. In fact, I can’t think of a single major female movement that’s ever carried the same kind of toxic, incel-like thinking, and resonated so strongly that figures like Donald Trump or Andrew Tate became the most searched people on the internet. Do you think the majority of women supported/caused that? Do you think women were the ones who brought Hitler to power? What about all the other tyrants? I doubt it was women supporting their rape, molestation, and torture. Is it logical to be evil? If truth is Love, then how does one explain this?

You also can’t use the argument “well, those aren’t real men,” when those types of men clearly exist and are widely pervasive. If that logic holds, I could just as easily say that any woman who isn’t developing witchcraft powers isn’t a “real woman,” and then selectively redefine femininity in an idealized, all-powerful, sage Guru wisdom way. You can’t just take a few exceptional male logicians and say, “See? Men are more logical on average.” That’s not a fair representation 😅 No offense, but I’ve always found this argument a bit silly at times. 

Note: I’m not saying women are the more logical or rational ones; I think this means that both genders need additional perspective. They each have their own forms of logic and blind spots.

• There’s logic in harmonizing, in building socially progressive and cooperative systems, emotional intelligence, understanding complex relational dynamics, and sustainability. 
• And there’s logic in survival, in competition, dominance, resource gathering, boundary setting, rule making, and strategic control.

Ignoring either of these means you're seeing "Logic" through a narrow, biased lens.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

This is a poor selection of examples which muddle the issue.

The feminine is fundamentally ungrounded. Which is why it needs the masculine to ground it.

Women's minds live in emotional fantasy. Men provide the logical factual ground.

Anyone who's dated a feminine woman knows how ungrounded she is. That's why women are called hot & crazy.

A grounded woman is basically a man. These are the women who run corporations.

Again... you're confusing polarity with gender dynamics, which is leading to a poor understanding of polarity. This is the issue when most people talk about this topic because they get so focused on sexual relationships between men and women that the real value of this understanding is missed completely.

This isn't about what men and women do. Gender norms and patterns often follow these general lay-lines but sometimes diverge. And it is far more complex because the opposites grow out of one another.

For example, because of the Masculine's loftiness and aim for perfection... this begets the orderliness of geometry. And that geometry is what contains the chaos of the organic forms of the Feminine which are found in nature.

What you're referring to is that the Feminine is chaotic and needs the geometry and orderliness of the Masculine to contain it.

Think of it like putting organically shaped objects into geometrically shaped objects... like putting clothing up into a drawer or putting dishes into a cupboard.

Or if one creates a schedule for themselves, they're putting a Masculine geometry around the Feminine chaotic nature of day to day living... which could be part of a Masculine progression towards a lofty Masculine goal.

But you must also consider that youth is Masculine principled while age is Feminine principled. So, young women will naturally have a lot of Masculine polarity traits like idealism.

In fact, women as a whole group are more Masculine than men in terms of their ability to create fantasy scenarios in their mind. Yet again, this runs into the archetype of the Wise Woman... which is about inner knowing and wisdom. So, it becomes Feminine again from that angle.

So, you must understand that these dichotomies are a specific angle to look at these polarities. But because the Masculine grows out of the Feminine and the Feminine grows out of the Masculine, you will always find a Masculine angle through which to view the Feminine and a Feminine angle through which to view the Masculine.

These qualities are inseparable.... like Yin and Yang. Don't confuse them with what men and women generally do... but you can also understand what's at play with patterns around men and women as a whole group. And you can notice where polarizations exist.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

the “male” version of "hard Grrr logic and facts" 💪💣🔥 just means excluding empathy from your deductions

It's not about that.

It's about excluding feelings from truth.

Truth cannot depend on anyone's feelings.

There is a deep asymmetry between feelings and truth. Truth must be primary. You cannot have feelings without truth, but you can have truth without feelings.

A rock is truth, and it has no feelings.

Feelings are optional. Truth is not. Truth is an Absolute.

You can be as feminine as you like but in the end Truth will kill you regardless of how you feel about it.

Empathy is optional. Death is not.

Edited yesterday at 03:31 PM by Leo Gura

[Sugarcoat]

lol what kind of women are you guys interacting with. Where are these ultra emotional ungrounded women you talk about. The women I’ve met in my life seem pretty balanced. I’m a woman and I’m stoic asf. Detached from most things, even human relations. I know I’m rare but I feel this ultra emotional woman y’all talk about is like a minority who is easy for you to attract or something because you come off as her polar opposite when you play your little “game” of subtle manipulation trying to come off as masculine. Just admit you attract unstable women LOL 

Edited yesterday at 03:32 PM by Sugarcoat

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Where are these ultra emotional ungrounded women you talk about.

Are you kidding me? Half the women I've dated are mentally unhinged to the point of having clinical diagnoses.

The crazy/hot chart is true.

Edited yesterday at 03:34 PM by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not about that.

It's about excluding feelings from truth.

Truth cannot depend on anyone's feelings.

There is a deep asymmetry between feelings and truth. Truth must be primary. You cannot have feelings without truth, but you can have truth without feelings.

A rock is truth, and it has no feelings.

Feelings are optional. Truth is not. Truth is an Absolute.

You can be a feminine as you like, but in the end Truth will kill you.

Some truths can only be made conscious through feeling.

[Sugarcoat]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Are you kidding me? Half the women I've met are mentally unhinged.

I don’t meet many people but for example in high school (I’m still young so it’s not too long ago) I went to a high school which required high grades to enter, and I saw many women I’d consider pretty mature, not non emotional like me but somewhat balanced. Maybe it’s a difference depending on education level you go to

Im going to uni soon so there I’ll see more women…. I’ll see what I see

[Xonas Pitfall]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not about that.

It's about excluding feelings from truth.

Truth cannot depend on anyone's feelings.

There is a deep asymmetry between feelings and truth. Truth must be primary. You cannot have feelings without truth, but you can have truth without feelings.

A rock is truth, and it has no feelings.

Feelings are optional. Truth is not. Truth is an Absolute.

You can be as feminine as you like but in the end Truth will kill you regardless of how you feel about it.

Empathy is optional. Death is not.

But how do you counter ego? Empathy, love, intuition leaps, all lofty feminine qualities, lead you to insight.
If you were purely stuck in your logic, your "ego," there would be absolutely no reason for you not to just keep lusting after absolute power, resource gathering, and manipulating systems, which is what you see in men who are blind to the "otherness" (this is the male, masculine blindness).

Quote

But what about all the men who follow herd-like ideologies like the red pill? Why are we ignoring those men? There are millions of them. In fact, I can’t think of a single major female movement that’s ever carried the same kind of toxic, incel-like thinking, and resonated so strongly that figures like Donald Trump or Andrew Tate became the most searched people on the internet. Do you think the majority of women supported/caused that? Do you think women were the ones who brought Hitler to power? What about all the other tyrants? I doubt it was women supporting their rape, molestation, and torture. Is it logical to be evil? If truth is Love, then how does one explain this?

Again, remember we are talking dualities here; you can’t just ascribe:

• Masculine: pure logic, perfect logic, intelligence; it includes both intuition leaps and hard truth.
• Feminine: all that is dumb, idiotic, undefined, confused, lost.

I doubt you realized the truth completely through logic. In fact, you admitted yourself that you only later, after 30+ years, realized God had inherent logic in it, meaning a lot of your insights came from being, experience, and feminine "submission" to the insight, presence, and leaps of insight. The love and beauty of consciousness probably moved you to keep trying to understand it.

Empathy is what lets the ego break out of its ego-centric state and into the realization of self and other, seeing itself in the other, connection, love, unity, God.

Which points back to my original argument: you can’t nitpick all intelligence to masculine logic when we clearly see a trend of males lacking this important insight and females being more in tune with it. Females have their own blind spots, I agree, but this way of distinguishing male and female as rational versus irrational is a very shallow understanding of what logic is and what is needed for genuine insight.

Edited yesterday at 03:37 PM by Xonas Pitfall

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Are you kidding me? Half the women I've met are mentally unhinged.

One time, when I was a teacher (I was about 25), our van broke down.

So, I had to take a cab to work. And I got into the cab and there was this very rough looking middle aged man driving the cab.

And he started asking me the usually cabby questions. And I was telling him that I was a graphic design teacher and some other random factoids about myself. Nothing too crazy.

And he was like, "Wow! That's amazing that you have that going on for you. Every single woman that I know is on pills." And it just blew his mind to be interacting with a woman who wasn't a crazy drug addict.

He had no idea that he had simply been interacting with unhinged women because he was an unhinged guy. To him, I was like this rarity just for having a job and not being strung out.

So, he thought that these compliments would mean a lot to me... because clearly, I'm also aware that "all other women except myself are crazy druggies". So, it must have been some amazing feat of willpower for me not to be.

But for me, it was really just a tell about himself.

He was a rough guy. So, he was hanging out with rough women. Like attracts like.

So, if half the women you've met are met are mentally unhinged...

[Schizophonia]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Are you kidding me? Half the women I've dated are mentally unhinged to the point of having clinical diagnoses.

The crazy/hot chart is true.

What do you mean by mentally unhinged. 

[Xonas Pitfall]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Are you kidding me? Half the women I've dated are mentally unhinged to the point of having clinical diagnoses.

I also think this might be a personal issue of what Dear Leo is attracted to!  "But Leo...! I didn’t expect my hot witch girlfriend to be a bipolar loony."

However, men can also be equally mentally cruel and unhinged, so I don’t really see the point; for every hot sexy BPD DDs cock-slurping bombshell manic pixie dream girl, there’s an NPD ASPD manipulator, gaslighter, pure demonic evil polyamorous-seeker red piller haha. Match made in Heaven!

Edited yesterday at 03:46 PM by Xonas Pitfall

[Xonas Pitfall]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Women's minds live in emotional fantasy. Men provide the logical factual ground.

Anyone who's dated a feminine woman knows how ungrounded she is. That's why women are called hot & crazy.

A grounded woman is basically a man. These are the women who run corporations. Hilary Clinton is a grounded woman. She's got bigger balls and me.

One of the "stereotypical" properties of the feminine is "being peaceful... submitting to the environment... allowing... presence, being a beauty to admire, a muse." This seems much more "grounded" by definition. If we talk about binaries, then the masculine is usually about conquering, not submitting, dominating, warriors, hunters, etc. This is less "grounded" and more restless, meant to act quickly, more impulsive, ready to attack and slaughter. Take the risk.

You can also flip the frame and say, well, yeah, they can be more peaceful and delusional because they are being protected and isolated from harsh reality by men, meaning they are less grounded. So which is it? Haha, it’s incredibly loopy, and both definitions can imply this. You could argue that men are rougher and more impulsive because reality requires that of them.

Another property of the feminine is "being motherly, caring, calm and patient with children, nurturing, being able to love unconditionally, supportively, understanding, empathizing... in tune with the reality of emotions and the social group's personality." This approach is also very grounded. You need to be unbelievably grounded and emotionally attuned to the baby and children to create a healthy environment.

Research shows that, on average, men take more risks than women, both physically and financially, which may help explain why female-led companies often have steadier, long-term growth. MSCI reported that companies led by women saw 10‑point better returns on equity over time. Male-led companies may pursue faster growth, but often at the cost of higher risk and volatility. In contrast, female-led companies often achieve more sustained and stable growth. During crises like the pandemic, firms led by women were perceived as less risky, had better credit quality, and weathered downturns more reliably than male-led firms. A large-scale study of nearly 99,400 global firms found that companies led by women consistently outperformed male-led ones on exploitation metrics, such as productivity, innovation, and capacity utilization, but showed lower growth in sales and aggressive expansion behaviors like asset acquisition.

Men are much more likely to punch, attack, or street fight, whereas women are more likely to express crying, issues, or vulnerability; both of these are impulsive, non-stoic expressions, not grounded, logical approaches.

Also, both genders have their more "emotional/sexually charged" and more "grounded/calm" properties. The ideal man and woman would have both qualities combined, quite fittingly.

• A man would want the hot, emotionally expressive, submissive, pornstar-like, feminine girl who’s wild in bed (short-term) but also super supportive, calm, peaceful, "Be his peace... ❤", nurturing, motherly, and grounded for the long term.
• Similarly, a woman would love the hot, sexy, charming, masculine "bad boy" (short-term), but also someone who has the provider attitude, logic, stern problem-solving capability, and reliability of a father figure (long-term).

Both genders suffer from similar issues, to be honest. They both want the hot, sexy, impulsive, wild sex attraction but struggle to maintain it long-term. Usually, for women, the guy will be horny, lustful, toxic, a bad boy, or a narcissist who won’t commit and cheats. For men, the girl will be crazy hot but too emotionally unstable, impulsive, illogical, bratty, and dramatic. You basically want your lizard brain constantly stimulated long-term, without any consequences or boredom. It's a core mind trick in almost everything in life, haha.

Again, it's flawed to consider one gender completely rational and smart while ignoring the blind spots that come with it.

[theleelajoker]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Are you kidding me? Half the women I've dated are mentally unhinged to the point of having clinical diagnoses.

The crazy/hot chart is true.

+1 

Met many, many emotionally ungrounded women, too. Seems to be my type 😂  They are not hard to find...

 

@Xonas Pitfall great analysis above. 

You basically want your lizard brain constantly stimulated long-term, without any consequences or boredom. It's a core mind trick in almost everything in life, haha.

This one really got me 🤣

Edited yesterday at 08:39 PM by theleelajoker

[Spiral]

I don’t know where you guys find these crazy women. Most I encounter are quite reasonable emotionally.

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Spiral said:

I don’t know where you guys find these crazy women. Most I encounter are quite reasonable emotionally.

It's really just a tell about the person who's saying it. Like attracts like.

Typically, one of the biggest tells about how a person operates in the world is in how they describe other people... especially romantic partners. If a person is fairly positive about other people, that person is probably seeing themselves reflected back to them in their choice of company.

The same is true of a person who has nothing good to say about other people.

It's like if you hear a woman talking about how all men cheat and are horrible people that can't be trusted.

And I have no doubt that the woman is actually experiencing that, because those guys really do exist.

But it is more of a tell about her... at the very least about her self-esteem and sense of self-worth creating a lack of discernment... and at most, she's a crazy one too.

So, when I hear men complaining about women being crazy and unhinged... at best, I think he's got low self-esteem and isn't discerning enough about his choice in partners... and at worst, he's also unhinged as well.

[ExploringReality]

@Emerald that's true that Truth can be realized through feelings, but Truth is not bound by feelings. The deep unfathomable depth of an infinite grand canyon swallowing you, as you fall into it,  you can surrender to it through feelings and connect with truth but truth is not dependent 

Edited 20 hours ago by ExploringReality