On Modesty and Sexuality - Does America hate modest women?

[zazen]

Found this reaction video of an American woman listening to a conservative perspective on modesty interesting: 

Whats the middle way between modesty and liberty?

[zazen]

Related comment on the topic approaching it from a macro Eastern vs Western lens:

On 07/06/2025 at 10:45 AM, zazen said:

Regarding your guys discussion on modesty - we could flip it on its head and say: why do liberals fear modesty? (instead of asking why do muslims fear sexuality?). It's not really about fear to begin with really - liberals don't fear modesty, muslim's don't fear sexuality. The two just approach it from a different place. They have a different civilizational approaches toward sex, dignity, and self-respect. The use the same words, but live in different worlds in how they approach them.

- In the West, the individual is at the center. The sacredness of the individual demands freedom of itself, which is expressed through visibility - visibility is equated with freedom, which is why expression becomes a virtue. The more exposed, the more liberated - visibility validates the sacredness of the self. The self finds liberation in and of it self, by itself - me, me, me. Boundaries are seen as chains because the concept of dignity is in the self having none. The West seeks to affirm the self outwardly.

- In the East, the community is at the center. The sacredness of the whole demands harmony with it, which is expressed through restraint of the self - restraint is equated with harmony, which is why discipline becomes a virtue. The more restrained, the more harmonious - peace with the whole validates it's sacredness.  The self finds liberation through the whole, because it's in accordance with something larger and higher than the self. Boundaries are seen as mastery of one self, for a greater self found in the whole - the concept of dignity is in self restraint. The East seeks to refine the self inwardly.

We can see how those orientations have manifested in everything from politics to sex. In the West it's birthed a spectacle society - everything is more shallow because life is lived at the periphery acting, expressing the self, never sitting in the self being grounded. Its more performative, hence the activist culture, hustle culture, identity politics - about whats seen, visible. Identity isn't something to be cultivated internally but something to be displayed. Just look at how Trump and Elon had a spat made public. Imagine a grown ass man, tweeting some dirty laundry of another grown ass man - this is seen as undignified and juvenile from a eastern perspective.

In the East, issues are handled discreetly behind doors and face to face. Even at a macro political level state to state - the West demands you pick sides and cut ties with their ''adversaries'' publicly. They ask Muslim countries if they condemn China's actions towards Uyghurs - to which many Muslims nations reply, we are partners with China and handle this sensitive issue with our partner in private. Even with Israel - Palestine: people were always asked to publicly condemn Hamas's actions on October 7th - which is an insult to even ask such a question, to even think that person would agree with such actions. But its all for show you see. Even diet and spirituality - one must be identified with a sub-group and express this always, hence the meme about vegans not waiting long before telling everyone they are one lol.

West: Individual → Freedom → Visibility → Expression → Spectacle

East: Community → Harmony → Discipline → Self-mastery → Sacred 

Easterners generally don't splinter into endless identity subgroups because at a deep civilizational level, they don’t experience the self as an isolated, floating island. They're anchored within a web of meaning towards something larger than the self: family, tradition, faith etc. That larger context gives the self structure, continuity, and belonging. They don't need to find it elsewhere in such and such group or identity, because they are already anchored into one.

 

 

On 07/06/2025 at 0:16 PM, zazen said:

The assumption is that fear is the basis for every action taken. The Western mind often pathologizes Eastern discipline (modesty) as fear - whilst that can be true, a lot of people are disciplined (modest) out of reverence, not fear.

They take mastery over the self as a higher form of freedom than indulgence. They liberate themselves through the whole, whilst the West finds liberation through the self. There's a way to conserve something through liberation, just as there's a way to liberate something through conservation. Silence (being conserved) liberates the sound of music, the same way music (being free) preserves the silence. Songs are made of sound (expression) and silence (restraint).

Just see Japanese culture, in particular the Samurai, do we think these people are being disciplined only from a place of fear?

Westerners assume modesty is something to overcome - a past relic of tradition. What does need to be overcome is dogmatism and extreme conservatism, in order to come to a place of balance - which is now lost in the West who have gone too far the other way into liberation, and who are now facing a backlash for it.

Dignity is performed in the West, whilst its protected in the East. The sacred aspects of life that hold meaning are seen as meaningful enough to be guarded in the East, whilst in the West they are seen as meaningful enough to be shared. The problem is both have extremes that end up ending meaning and dignity all together. In the East they protect something to the point they choke it off from the oxygen of life, in the West they expose it to the point all meaning is rusted by the elements or diluted entirely.

Meaning is fragile. So it requires both exposure and protection - too much of either, and it collapses. If we wanted to simplify it even more we could say the West finds dignity in saying Yes to things (expression), the East finds dignity in saying No to things (protection).

Obliviously there's also a spectrum. Why is it that we find complete nakedness (visibility - expression) not as beautiful or alluring as an elegant lady? Even just one step removed from nakedness,  take the example of a stripper. Its called strip and tease - because whats teased is the guys ability to have full access - to touch and to see. And this gets guys to whip out wads of cash. Strippers play the Western game of visibility, but use modesty as a tool within that game. Humans instinctively equate access with value - what is hidden is protected, and what is protected is presumed valuable.

This is why many find Arabesque belly dancers using veils or burlesque shows to be more alluring than simply being nude. That's why classically dressed women who are elegant exude femininity, by elevating the body instead of fully revealing it. Full concealment like in the niqab isn't alluring at all, because nothing is even shown to be valued - no soul or spirit is shown. It’s like looking at a rock, without a glimmer of gold. But the point with this is that it isn't Islamic - people conflate modesty (a value which protects that of value - women and sexuality) with erasure (an extreme). In the same way, liberalism can lead to it's own extreme of hypersexualization - both essentially dehumanize.

 

Edited July 18 by zazen

[RendHeaven]

I approve of all sides

Modestly dressed women with a cultivated exterior of "dignity"? HOT

Slutty stripper IG thot OF model with negative "dignity"? HOT

the awesome thing about women is that, no mater what they do, they're still women.

to each their own. we always win in the end

[Eskilon]

23 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

the awesome thing about women is that, no mater what they do, they're still women.

doesn't this apply to men too? lol

[Schizophonia]

low qi video

[aurum]

He makes some fair western critiques.

But he also obviously has a pro-islam bias.

[theleelajoker]

Identity isn't something to be cultivated internally but something to be displayed.

Humans instinctively equate access with value - what is hidden is protected, and what is protected is presumed valuable.

West demands you pick sides and cut ties with their ''adversaries'' publicly. 

 In the West it's birthed a spectacle society - everything is more shallow because life is lived at the periphery acting, expressing the self, never sitting in the self being grounded.

Those quotes really resonated. I can see it in daily behavior. Especially the "pick sides and cut ties."

I think that's also something that attracts other people in the west to me in a certain way. I lived abroad for a while and thus are  significantly "less western" then most people that only lived in the west. Western lifestyle as you expressed above reached limits, so more depth, harmony, community, connection and inner work seems to be the solution.

@zazen So my gut feeling since a long time is that it's about integration. To say it simplified, "put some Westin the East and some East in the West". WDTY is the solution?

Edited Saturday at 11:48 PM by theleelajoker

[LordFall]

On 7/18/2025 at 6:21 AM, zazen said:

Related comment on the topic approaching it from a macro Eastern vs Western lens:

 

 

Pretty wild steel man of Eastern culture that you wrote up there. It's great to be modest if that's what you wanna live, why do they enforce it on others? The east is not communal out of a sense of wisdom and healthy community, it's more out of a sense of desperate grasping. Are muslim fathers known to wisely hear out their daughters that want to dress provocatively and let them live their way if they want to or just beat them into submission? 

Also most of the middle eastern countries and China have big shows of wealth. It's not exactly quiet elegance anymore. There's something to be learned from all aspects of our civilization but I wouldn't say that the concept of modesty as it's expressed in this thread is an honest one.