Unfairnesses and injustices in dating

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

What I'm saying is to have a warm social circle. And then, if one decides to do pick-up to do it as normal with women at bars and clubs or other places like that.

I agree that getting some warm social circle experience would be ideal for guys if they've never had that. Otherwise, yeah they will probably be very cringey when they start to do pickup.

[Joshe]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

and I squirmed out of the way as he turned the focus of his gyration dance elsewhere.

That's the kind of immaturity that it feels like, when a man who's beyond his early 30s is still doing pick-up

Yeah, that's funny. It's like, dude, your hay day is over. Go home. Lol. Or at the least go hang by the bar and don't be imposing your old ass onto young women.

I suppose it's different for guys though. I actually enjoyed women aged 35-50 when I was in my mid twenties. Many of them are happy to have flings with young guys, without demanding all the attention younger women usually require. They're much more fun too, as they're more mature, witty, and better at flirting and being sexy. They could actually teach me something. Thinking back on it, those were my favorite. When I was the one being picked up by an experienced woman. Highly recommend older chicks. 

Edited July 8 by Joshe

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Society needs to come up with some kind of support structure for socializing and building community... especially for young people.

@Emerald Good timing. This is becoming a real cultural talking point

 

[aurum]

1/5 guys reported to the authorities seems way too high.

I also have some issues with his advice about "escalating signals before talking". That almost never happens.

If you wait for that kind of thing, you will essentially never be able to approach a woman ever. You don't need flirty eye contact, you just need to know how to approach properly and walk things back if they're unwanted.

Everything else he said was pretty solid.

Edited July 8 by aurum

[Joshe]

18 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

@Emerald Good timing. This is becoming a real cultural talking point

 

Damn, did he get his video notes from this thread? 

Even with all the modern technology, it seems getting face to face with your friends would still be the thing most teens would want to do. My guess is there's still a lot of face-to-face interaction, just with much smaller social circles. Then, on top of that, social media and dating apps have caused a runaway effect with dating standards. It seems the collective ego has been exacerbated by the Gram and things like this, so this itself would make girls not even want to be in the same vicinity with anyone less than a 7, else she lose social status, and the guys pick up on this and are understandably fucked up by it.

Is this largely what's happening? Dwindling face-to-face interaction and runaway dating standards? Reminds me of that elk species that went extinct because the females would only mate with the males who had the largest horns. The horns got so big it killed off the species. lol.

[RendHeaven]

22 minutes ago, aurum said:

1/5 guys reported to the authorities seems way too high.

I also have some issues with his advice about "escalating signals before talking". That almost never happens.

If you wait for that kind of thing, you will essentially never be able to approach a woman ever. You don't need flirty eye contact, you just need to know how to approach properly and walk things back if they're unwanted.

Everything else he said was pretty solid.

Agreed

I just really liked his framing of "natural selection" in a changing environment.

2025 VS 2015 is night and day

And 2005 is unrecognizable

the people who deny this are those that have a strong natural affinity with (or immunity to) the new environment

Edited July 8 by RendHeaven

[RendHeaven]

2 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Dwindling face-to-face interaction

This is a genuine, urgent, large-scale pattern. You guys are right to call for more basic socialization.

Unfortunately, your opposition is the trillion-dollar tech industry lol.

6 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Reminds me of that elk species that went extinct because the females would only mate with the males who had the largest horns. The horns got so big it killed off the species. lol.

fascinating 

[Joshe]

19 minutes ago, aurum said:

I also have some issues with his advice about "escalating signals before talking". That just doesn't happen.

IME, this is precisely how it's always worked. You catch a girl looking or she catches you, then someone looks away. It happens again until it's known, then comes initial comms. It's how girls let you know they want you to talk to them. It's in like every movie ever, no? 

[aurum]

5 minutes ago, Joshe said:

IME, this is precisely how it's always worked. You catch a girl looking or she catches you, then someone looks away. It happens again until it's known, then comes initial comms. It's how girls let you know they want you to talk to them. It's in like every movie ever, no? 

My guess is that's because you just haven't done a lot of cold approaches. You seem to prefer smaller, more intimate environments.

I think that the "escalating signals" thing has happened to me maybe once in my entire life. And it didn't even lead anywhere.

It's the exact opposite of the movies.

[RendHeaven]

5 minutes ago, aurum said:

My guess is that's because you just haven't done a lot of cold approaches.

To be fair to him, he could be very handsome, or he could be willing to entertain average-looking women, or he could just be plain lucky

very handsome men actually do get the luxury of eye-contact tag. likewise, if you're not particularly picky about looks, then you can find yourself playing eye-contact tag with a plain looking woman.

But if you're an average-looking man, and you want to shoot your shot with a conventionally attractive woman with any degree of consistency (let's say you're at a party or a club, with no mutuals), then you cannot expect any warm signals from her, ever. It's cold approach or nothing.

[aurum]

3 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

To be fair to him, he could be very handsome

I was thinking that as well but didn't want to say it.

Bro is playing on easy mode 

[aurum]

I want to make a general point about this social circle vs cold approach debate.

"Social circle" and "cold approach" are constructs that we could deconstruct. They're often not that clearly distinguishable.

For instance, if I'm in college and approach a girl I don't know from class, is that cold approach or social circle? She is part of the larger social circle of my college. Maybe she has seen me before in class. So it's not strictly cold, but it's not strictly social circle.

What about if you're at a friend's party and you approach a woman you don't know?

What about if you're in a VIP section of a nightclub with friends and approach a random woman from the general section to come join you?

What about if you're at an eclusive business networking event and open someone?

The line gets blurry very fast.

Really this cold approach vs social circle debate is a continuum. Where at the one end, you're approaching a complete stranger who is at least a member of the same human species. And at the other end, you are having your closest friends or family directly introducing you to someone.

Realistically, everyone is choosing some sort of hybrid strategy. The question is just how much. How much cold approach do you want versus social circle? What are the tradeoffs for each strategy? In what context does each work best? And how does it fit into your larger life goals?

When you lean more cold approach, you get more anonymity, volume and directness. When you lean more social circle, you get more exposure, indirectness and compounding effects. 

Which is inherently better?

Edited July 8 by aurum

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

Yeah, that's funny. It's like, dude, your hay day is over. Go home. Lol. Or at the least go hang by the bar and don't be imposing your old ass onto young women.

I suppose it's different for guys though. I actually enjoyed women aged 35-50 when I was in my mid twenties. Many of them are happy to have flings with young guys, without demanding all the attention younger women usually require. They're much more fun too, as they're more mature, witty, and better at flirting and being sexy. They could actually teach me something. Thinking back on it, those were my favorite. When I was the one being picked up by an experienced woman. Highly recommend older chicks. 

Well, that's a little bit of a different thing. I was actually VERY attracted to older men during the time of that club incident.

So, while it's true that most women aren't attracted to significantly older men, I've been attracted to much older men since I was 20 years old and started to conceptualize of myself as an adult woman.

And I still have a preference for older men.

But when I was 20, it was a straight-up fetish to the point where I couldn't even find 20-something-year-old men attractive. I only was interested in guys who were 30+. (This is when I met my husband, who is 12 years older than me.)

Right now (at age 36), if I were single, I'd still have somewhat of a preference for an age gap of 5-10 years. But I am currently capable of finding men my age attractive... and even a few years younger.

But my fantasy when I was 20 years old was to seduce a fully mature and responsible man whom I knew in a platonic or professional capacity who's twice my age (early 40s).

But a HUGE part of that age-gap kink was a craving for maturity... and to stress-test that fully grown man's maturity and resolve by using my sexual power over him as a young woman to put him in a values-conflict with his own instincts, where he is concerned for my welfare as someone so much younger than him but is struggling hard to resist being a big bad wolf.

Something about the tension of that dynamic and seeing the conflict between his civilized nature and his animal nature play out in his facial expressions really pushed a button for me and made me feel this sense that my sexuality is powerful enough to turn a mature, warm-hearted, and responsible middle aged man into a ravenous beast.

But this didn't work with just any older man... as maturity was the real craving.

And I knew at that age that any 40ish year old man who's approaching (or preferring) 20-year-olds is very immature. So, those guys in the club were immature older guys trying to be youngsters. 

But I wasn't even attracted to 20-year old men back then because of my craving for maturity. So, why would I want a middle aged man who's trying to act like a 20-year-old? They were just stripping themselves of the primary quality that makes a man attractive in the first place.

So, I was typically un-interested when older men would approach me as I knew that approaching a 20 year old as a middle aged person was a tell about their character, maturity, and depth.

But I also knew that, despite the fact that a mature man in his late 30s or early 40s would never approach someone my age (at the time) and would go out of their way to make sure I was feeling comfortable... I also knew that they'd be tempted and would probably eventually give in if I made advances toward them.

 

[Joshe]

1 minute ago, aurum said:

Bro is playing on easy mode 

Lol, nah. I actually look goofy AF for the most part. I could look like a 6.5 or 7 in certain light with a hat (I'm bald with a weird shaped head) while in my prime, but even this might be too high. Girls were attracted to me when I was younger, but they all report it wasn't so much my looks as it was my demeanor, attitude, mystic, allure, or whatever. 

TBF, I did have a leg up. My leg up was being a natural at reading people and their perceptions, thus knowing how to come off, and using subtle non-verbal communication to lure people in. Also, largely smiling, laughing, coming off as a confident, safe, fun, easy-to-approach person who looks like could engage them in an interesting conversation. All of this has to be balanced perfectly, and I just understood it intuitively, so that was my leg up.

HealthyGamer isn't particularly attractive and he reports the same eye contact escalation that I've always noticed. 

 

 

[Joshe]

@Emerald I gotcha. So his beard wasn’t grey enough 😂. I actually think there are some of the same elements you describe in your attraction to an older male in my attraction to an older female. Interesting. 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

IME, this is precisely how it's always worked. You catch a girl looking or she catches you, then someone looks away. It happens again until it's known, then comes initial comms. It's how girls let you know they want you to talk to them. It's in like every movie ever, no? 

That's been my experience as well.

Though, it usually takes me 2-3 months of platonic interaction for me to develop feelings that are deep enough to feel compelled to do something about them.

But it's usually been a slow-burn of gradually escalating signals and sub-communication from within an otherwise platonic context.

And I honestly can't imagine a woman preferring the more direct approach that pick-up guys do, as it immediately cuts all anticipation and sexual tension from the dynamic by making the sexual intention explicit from the get-go. 

Yet again, they may not necessarily care too much about the woman's preference in this way. They're likely just focusing on their own sexual goals... and whatever works for them is what works. So, fair enough.

And I had some hook-ups when I was in my early 20s after I got out of my first relationship. And there was nothing interesting about them. 

These experiences were very emotionally under-stimulating. And the enjoyment of sex is 2/3 emotional for me and only 1/3 physical.  So, there was just no "there" there.

But I think a lot of the guys who do pick-up might be under the impression that women agreeing to have sex means that she prefers whatever works to get her in bed. It's one of the side-effects of the cultural narrative around women being hyper selective and picky.

So, many guys seem to think, "Whatever method works to sleep with a woman is what is highly valued by that woman and equally or superiorly preferred to other methods of escalating things sexually."

But they seem not to understand this qualitative difference in terms of how women experience it. Either that, or (like I said before) they're just mostly focused on their own agenda to hook-up and don't focus so much on the woman's enjoyment of the experience as long as they're succeeding with their sexual goals.

But that gradual escalation of sub-communication arouses a lot of lovely heart-centered feelings of intimacy and sexual tension over time. 

[Emerald]

7 minutes ago, Joshe said:

@Emerald I gotcha. So his beard wasn’t grey enough 😂. I actually think there are some of the same elements you describe in your attraction to an older male in my attraction to an older female. Interesting. 

Haha! Exactly!  

I suspect that most people who tend to be attracted to older partners are looking for some kind of maturity.

[Emerald]

29 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Lol, nah. I actually look goofy AF for the most part. I could look like a 6.5 or 7 in certain light with a hat (I'm bald with a weird shaped head) while in my prime, but even this might be too high. Girls were attracted to me when I was younger, but they all report it wasn't so much my looks as it was my demeanor, attitude, mystic, allure, or whatever. 

TBF, I did have a leg up. My leg up was being a natural at reading people and their perceptions, thus knowing how to come off, and using subtle non-verbal communication to lure people in. Also, largely smiling, laughing, coming off as a confident, safe, fun, easy-to-approach person who looks like could engage them in an interesting conversation. All of this has to be balanced perfectly, and I just understood it intuitively, so that was my leg up.

HealthyGamer isn't particularly attractive and he reports the same eye contact escalation that I've always noticed. 

Typically, what's attractive about a man in the eyes of most women is just exactly what you describe.

It's the guy's energy and vibe... and his focus towards just enjoying the moment and being himself.

And if a guy is intuitive and emotionally intelligent with an even-keeled warm demeanor, that's the entire battle.

It really is just him showing that he's pro-social and normal... and giving off the vibes of his authentic personality, which throws out a subtle signal into the environment that a sizable minority of women will be attracted to.

[theleelajoker]

Think about this for a moment:

• Animals don't think of strategies how to mate
• They don't book pickup courses 
• They don't discuss for hours with their friends (m+f) when, how to behave, what to do, how to approach, analyzing etc 
• Why the **** this stuff seems necessary in our current culture?

Every concept, every strategy, every reasoning you create in favor or against doing this, that location, and this approach and bla bla is creating more blockages in your head. ITS UNIQUE EVERY FUCKING TIME. Except you want to live like a robot, good luck with that. OP already has good points on the harmful programming.

Yes, women are attracted to good vibes. But the same goes for men. And friends. Woman are also attracted to men that show sadness. And men like women that express true sadness as well. Same with friends. So what's the lesson?

People like when other people show true emotion, authenticity, truly living. And guess what? That's what you want for yourself. You want to be your authentic self. So the best way to be attractive for others is to be you, to express your self fully without BS strategies. What's best for you is what makes you attractive for others. That simple? Yes. 

And the this stuff about the 10s and "most attractive women". The most beautiful woman I dated drove me crazy because we were not compatible long run.

Most men seem so fucking determined on finding the outward "hottest" girl instead of the one that makes both partner feel good. And then get frustrated when they don't get what they should not want in the first place lol

Edited July 8 by theleelajoker

[aurum]

6 hours ago, Joshe said:

Lol, nah. I actually look goofy AF for the most part. I could look like a 6.5 or 7 in certain light with a hat (I'm bald with a weird shaped head) while in my prime, but even this might be too high. Girls were attracted to me when I was younger, but they all report it wasn't so much my looks as it was my demeanor, attitude, mystic, allure, or whatever. 

TBF, I did have a leg up. My leg up was being a natural at reading people and their perceptions, thus knowing how to come off, and using subtle non-verbal communication to lure people in. Also, largely smiling, laughing, coming off as a confident, safe, fun, easy-to-approach person who looks like could engage them in an interesting conversation. All of this has to be balanced perfectly, and I just understood it intuitively, so that was my leg up.

HealthyGamer isn't particularly attractive and he reports the same eye contact escalation that I've always noticed. 

Well keep doing what you're doing. Seems to be working for you.