Where is Peter Ralston wrong?

[Inliytened1]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Our goals here are much higher than basic enlightenment.

There isn't basic enlightenment  and if your goal is higher then you may want to go back and watch the fool vs wisdom video

Yeah there are other categories.  But when it comes to spiritual Truth what we all want is Truth.   That is awakening 

Don't play me for a fool

 

Edited Sunday at 12:29 PM by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

If all there was to this work was self-inquiry, then all my other talk would be unnecessary. In fact, all my talk would be pointless since you can learn self-inquiry from a single Nisargadatta video.

So either I'm a total fool for doing all this work, or something deeper is afoot.

Edited Saturday at 10:51 PM by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Great quote

It is! And accurate. 

[kbone]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why do you say such things? I was talking about Huang po. I really would like that Huang PO was absolutely enlightened and he shows the people the way, but it isn't the case. It's hard to see that everyone is wrong. I don't want to gain a competition, I want the absolute openess. I think you are projecting your human thing in me, anyone who's perceptive could see that there is not emotional drama in my opinion about Huang po

No, I read what he wrote. Then Im talking about the Huang po ideas, not about his personality. 

Another thing: Huang po say: the reality is an infinite mind. Well, that's wrong. When he says "mind" he means relationship. A mind is relation between opposites. The reality is absence of limitations and from this the mind inevitably arises. I say that because I open myself to the unlimited more or less every day. At first was difficult, I used to do 5meo in high doses a lot, maybe 200 times, probably more. I use to do LSD , then weed and then 5meo, in the middle of the night in the dark. Was not enough. Before I used to fly in delta in extreme conditions. "Extreme" means something that now I can't believe. Why doing that shit? Same climbing very exposed, was not enough, nothing was enough, maybe im not the smarter but when I grab something I polish it until it's impossible to polish more, even it take years second by second, I can't avoid it, then, after lot of polishment something started to happen. One day in bed reality become like water, no reference, very scary. Then I went deeper and deeper in the absence of grabbing until the thing got open, without doubt. Then I understand why Huang po says that reality is a mind and what he means, it's absolutely obvious . You could stop judge about my parents and those psychological thing, I'm absolutely out of that, you can act like you believe and judge only what I say about Huang po, not your projections

BreakingtheWall was the one who introduced "emotions" into the convo. Now, Breaking is crying foul, blaming someone else for meeting them where he decided to go, and is now crying about projections and condescensions while acting all holier-then-thou "objective". Please, tell me you are conscious of doing so, and take responsibility. Otherwise, I'll assume it's just a split mind in control.. it's not uncommon when we get into the weeds of speerchal Truth talk.

To be clear, I am not hung up on Huang baby, nor am I here to defend, promote, or proselytize a Zen message. And, I don't give a rat's ass about Po's personality. What's interesting is that you are carrying on like a Zen monk, grappling with a dead ZM as if you're still trying to defeat him in dharma combat, or maybe even trying to kill the Buddha. If you wanna engage in Zenny dharma combat with me, welp, OK, but I am not here to appease your entirely left-brain 'logic'. It misses the mark. But, if want to kill the Buddha, do it and quit just trying. Do you HEAR what I'm saying?

You're grappling and battling with Zen linguistics, thinking you're figured out its weakness by READING it, not penetrating it, puncturing a hole into the heart of hearts, transcending the meaning of the words and going DIRECTLY to what they point to, thus putting the diamond-tipped spear into its bloodied head. Zen doesn't give a fuck about your logic or the meaning of the words it uses... such devices are so utterly limited...and it's YOUR head on its chopping block. But yes, the mind is a rascal indeed. 

To penetrate and see the emptiness that is pointed to, you're gonna have to get past the words that you're hung up on. Again, I know what they are pointing to, and it has nothing to do with flatness, polishing, or the word "mind" you consistently speak of as 'problematic'. As a matter of fact, start their. Do you even know what the various meanings of the word "mind" in ancient Chinese? You might be surprised.

Here's a start. Just some simple copy-and-pastes from a simple search.

"the term "心" - "heart-mind," encompasses a holistic understanding of the mind, integrating thoughts, emotions, and consciousness as a unified entity. In the East Asian tradition, it is often seen as the core of one's being and the source of perception, emotion, and volition." 

***Plenty going on there.

 

"conception of 心 is rooted in the Indian Buddhist concept of citta, which refers to the mind or consciousness ....Indian Mahayana influenced East Asian interpretations, which expanded on it by emphasizing the innate purity and potential enlightenment of the heart-mind"

***Drama of the search building.

 

"Zen Buddhism emphasizes the direct experience of the ultimate source of the heart-mind, described as the "One Mind""

***Key point: Zen is pointing to direct experience (i.e., realization), and is "described as". How that plays out is different depending on the, welp, shit tons of stuff. But yes, it is a massive undertaking that most will shy away from. That's fine, it ain't for everyone and life will go on regardless. That's why I've consistently mentioned the School of Necessity AND the School of Futility.... mostly only those that truly "need" to find it will likely have the will to carry out the exorbitant number of failings of the mind in its attempt to transcend itself. A descent way to express it is sharpening the intellect via the process of the search, while in turn the mind's hold is loosened, making it vulnerable/prone, but actual realization is acausal. No one knows if/when it might happen.

 

Don't get caught up in the semantics... You're looking at the finger, not the moon it's pointing to (paraphrased Zenny saying).

“执着于文字” (zhí zhuó yú wén zì) directly translates to "obsessed with words" or "clinging to the literal meaning of words". It is used to describe someone who gets caught up in the superficial details of language, failing to see the broader context or deeper meaning."

[kbone]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If all there was to this work was self-inquiry, then all my other talk would be unnecessary. In fact, all my talk would be pointless since you can learn self-inquiry from a single Nisargadatta video.

So either I'm a total fool for doing all this work, or something deeper is afoot.

In speerchal seeking, self-inquiry is not really something anyone "teaches", but a tool that brings about an unlearning giving rise to transcendence. Only the mind obscures the Truth that is already shining brightly. Mind is the last to get the memo.

Self-inquiry is already happening, even for people who are oblivious to what it means or what it is. Typically a mind that becomes aware of its suffering begins to take notice and responsibility... and THEN self-inquiry becomes a more conscious tool.

Niz is solid.

[kbone]

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

My father was a level 10 grandiose narcissist. My mother was an exile from a Muslim country, intelligent and cultured but with low self-esteem. My father played a character in which he worshipped Hitler and constantly proclaimed his eugenics ideas. When I was 10, 11, 12 he made me shower with him and he would pose like a bodybuilder and tell me: I am perfect, you are imperfect and such things. I worshipped him like a god. They both died of cancer before I turned 20. My father was a severe alcoholic and smoked 80 cigarettes a day. Right when he died, I was looking into his eyes. I saw absolute terror, and at one point, in the hospital room, I saw him floating in the darkness, with strings coming out of his limbs like a puppet, and he was making a strange squawking noise while making spasmodic movements. This filled me with absolute joy, and I started laughing nonstop. Since there were people in the room, I pretended to cry and went outside. I laughed for several minutes. I'd never been so happy.

I used to feel sad about my parents, and angry about my father, because he made my mother my sister and me hate ourselves and each other, live in shame. He used to say that he was a CEO of a big company, he was a kinda of scammer. I loved him, he made me feel shit but same time instinctively I felt pity about him, so weak, and my mother also, but later I realized what my father did and I hate him with fire. Luckily he was dead. In the past sometimes I thought about them and I felt like I want to die, don't be in this form. Now it's just something that happened, a circumstance. The movement that the reality took in some moment, nothing special, just relation, cause effect. In fact I feel happy thinking about them. 

After he dies I went to another city alone, I started working and in 5 years I had a business, in other 3,4 I ve money enough to do what I wanted. Then I started traveling and that, but of course I always had a lot of disfuncional shit in me. I did a very serious work in what all my intelligence and intuition was involved, but was no exit. Until I found the exit, was the unlimited. Nothing else would work . Long trip , interesting adventure. That's life, depth, vastness, absolute beauty and glory of the unlimited

That is quite a story, and it does wreak of the destructive aspects of the unconscious, self-obsessed, closed mind. It must have taken quite a bit of determination to rise above the negativity, abuse, and inherent trauma of such experiences as a child. You've done well. my friend.

I am not a psychologist, so I will not offer anything else.

Still love and respect your intensity to SEE clearly.

[Breakingthewall]

@kbone I feel ridiculous about answering you, you are just a narcissist with anything interesting to say.

4 hours ago, kbone said:

BreakingtheWall was the one who introduced "emotions" into the convo. Now, Breaking is crying foul, blaming someone else for meeting them where he decided to go, and is now crying about projections and condescensions

Are you crazy? It's sad to read you 

4 hours ago, kbone said:

Key point: Zen is pointing to direct experience (i.e., realization), and is "described as". How that plays out is different depending on the, welp, shit tons of stuff. But yes, it is a massive undertaking that most will shy away from. That's fine, it ain't for everyone and life will go on regardless. That's why I've consistently mentioned the School of Necessity AND the School of Futility....

You don't say absolutely nothing, just that zen is great and that you were in the Himalayas meditating and that you get along well with your wife and your brothers are divorced but you still married. 

It's hard reading you, a lot of extension, zero content. Maybe you should go again to the Himalayas, and congratulations to your wife, sure she is brave. 

A revelation: spiritual people are , well, let's say not specially smart. That's why spirituality is so low. Let's see if it's possible to reach intelligent people, times are changing, you are the past. 

😘 And good luck, you will need. 

Edited Sunday at 05:34 AM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If all there was to this work was self-inquiry, then all my other talk would be unnecessary. In fact, all my talk would be pointless since you can learn self-inquiry from a single Nisargadatta video.

So either I'm a total fool for doing all this work, or something deeper is afoot.

This work would require people who truly wanted to reach the bottom, not those who just wanted to feel better and be better than others. Perhaps one in every million. But I'm sure that they will grow exponentially given the multiple causal lines converging, people will slowly realize that there's no point in comparing with others, and that no matter how good you feel, and no matter how many stories you pretend to believe, they will soon stare death in the face. And there, mental tricks won't work; you have to go in naked. So some will strip before the moment.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Breakingthewall The inevitability of death—of leaving this physical plane—is a powerful stimulus to begin asking ourselves more fundamental questions about the nature of existence. However, each individual plane, each role to play, consists of birth—of entering the stage, of playing a role that, in my opinion, is only partially outlined, and death—of leaving the stage. All of this forms a cosmic whole and is a process that unfolds over time. This process isn't something that falls from space, in the sense that it's embedded in the broader context of family, community, nation and its history. All in all, it's a rather complex, multi-layered saga about humanity on Earth. Relax and play your part as best you can. Admire the scenery. That's all. There's nothing to achieve here. This dimension is the hardcore periphery of existence. Not much can be seen from here.

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Breakingthewall It may be helpful to recognize the hierarchy of identity, which is literally a kind of "inward" scaffolding on which, or rather, in which your character is embedded. This scaffolding is like a matryoshka doll, because first you must be a resident of this universe to inhabit this local group of galaxies. Then you choose the Milky Way, and within it, this star system, the so-called solar system, and planet Earth. Only then, descending, as it were, into the cosmic matryoshka doll, can you choose the continent, country, city, village, community, and finally, family in which your entire drama will unfold. Therefore, your cosmic identity is primary to your earthly one. It's not a matter of faith, but simple logic. I found this obvious truth very helpful in deflating the ego ballon.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

All in all, it's a rather complex, multi-layered saga about humanity on Earth. Relax and play your part as best you can. Admire the scenery. That's all. There's nothing to achieve here. This dimension is the hardcore periphery of existence. Not much can be seen from here.

you know that so confidently, but who knows, maybe things are radically different. Imo It's better empty the mind and go inside as deep as it's possible without any restrictions and preconceived ideas. What I'm talking is from direct vision, not circular though as you said. It's normal missinterpretation, no problem with that.

 

Edited Sunday at 10:33 AM by Breakingthewall

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Breakingthewall Oh, I have no certainty whatsoever. Of all my hallucinations and delusions, the image I've sketched above resonates with me most, or appeals to me most. But it could just as well be as you say—things can, in the end, be completely different from what we imagine here. It's really hard, very hard, from a personal perspective, to find a shred of reliable objectivity. The only thing that frees me from myself is less of myself, more of others. Or more of me in others, and more of others in me.

[Breakingthewall]

7 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Breakingthewall Oh, I have no certainty whatsoever. Of all my hallucinations and delusions, the image I've sketched above resonates with me most, or appeals to me most. But it could just as well be as you say—things can, in the end, be completely different from what we imagine here. It's really hard, very hard, from a personal perspective, to find a shred of reliable objectivity. The only thing that frees me from myself is less of myself, more of others. Or more of me in others, and more of others in me.

It's easy, just polish your logic as a diamond, without emotional honey, then you will see through the logic. What you are going to see is just limitless. Then you can construct a more complex logic respecting the absolute transparency. The only rule is that the absolute total infinity must be clear through that logic. If some facet is dirty, you will perceive it clearly. But of course, first you must see the limitlessness 

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Breakingthewall

It seems to me, however, that the limitlessness of existence has a built-in limitation stemming from its very nature. This limitation is the aforementioned logic. For example, according to the logic NOTHIGNESS cannot exist, because NOTHINGNESS is identical to non-existence. Therefore, all that remains is existence. Existence, which has no beginning or end, cannot be interrupted. NOTHINGNESS cannot constitute an interval of existence, because NOTHINGNESS never occurs. I've noticed that many times here on this forum, NOTHIGNESS is often confused with EMPTINESS which is something utterly different.

Of course, we are dealing here with the limits of what the human mind can comprehend within the framework of available logic. Nevertheless, something within me tells me that 2 + 2 = 4, regardless of whether I'm the one doing the calculation or some super archangel from the 10th dimension.

[Breakingthewall]

29 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

For example, according to the logic NOTHIGNESS cannot exist, because NOTHINGNESS is identical to non-existence. Therefore, all that remains is existence. Existence, which has no beginning or end, cannot be interrupted. NOTHINGNESS cannot constitute an interval of existence, because NOTHINGNESS never occurs.

Exactly, that logic is precise. From this, it follows that existence, that is, relative motion, always occurs, since the absence of motion is "never." Obvious, right? So, what is the nature of motion? Why does motion occur? How does it occur? There is only one answer: relative to another plane, it is a change of state with respect to a reference. Without reference there is not movement , and without limits what can change is the limitlessness itself reflected in itself. Without limits, this occurs infinitely. If so, any change must be synchronized with another change, which in turn must be synchronized with another change, ad infinitum. The slightest asynchrony results in the nonexistence of that relative motion. That is, what exists does so because it fits. It is simply the movement of infinity relative to itself.

What exist is only different from what does not exist in that it is mathematically possible at a given moment. Mathematics are logic and logic are relations.

Existence and nonexistence are fundamentally the same. Reality is not existence, but rather existence is the inevitable manifestation of reality. Reality is the absence of limits, not the consequence of the absence of limits. You can realize this right now; your essential nature is limitlessness. It is unthinkable, it is absolute openness, and if you place yourself in the perspective necessary to realize it, you are one with the absolute, game over.

[Someone here]

@Breakingthewall who do you think you are ? 

[Inliytened1]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If all there was to this work was self-inquiry, then all my other talk would be unnecessary. In fact, all my talk would be pointless since you can learn self-inquiry from a single Nisargadatta video.

So either I'm a total fool for doing all this work, or something deeper is afoot.

No you provided the entire framework.  It's not just self inquiry.   But again this is working towards Absolute Truth.   Your work is good and it's valuable.  Don't stop what you are doing.  But don't mistake the end goal.  The end goal is to awaken.  That is the the essence of the work

.

Edited Sunday at 12:38 PM by Inliytened1

[kbone]

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@kbone I feel ridiculous about answering you, you are just a narcissist with anything interesting to say.

Are you crazy? It's sad to read you 

You don't say absolutely nothing, just that zen is great and that you were in the Himalayas meditating and that you get along well with your wife and your brothers are divorced but you still married. 

It's hard reading you, a lot of extension, zero content. Maybe you should go again to the Himalayas, and congratulations to your wife, sure she is brave. 

A revelation: spiritual people are , well, let's say not specially smart. That's why spirituality is so low. Let's see if it's possible to reach intelligent people, times are changing, you are the past. 

😘 And good luck, you will need. 

I've met you with what you have presented in the discussion. I saw value in what you were sharing, though perhaps I should have read more.... you've said a lot, and I've only read a small sample.

1) Support for you theory and intensity was stated, and some basic context was provided (that again, supported your theory). You liked it, and wanted to talk more.

2) When mostly agreed upon, but then questioned and prodded, you cried condescension.

3) When even more personal context was provided that continued to support your theory, you said it sounded emotional (i.e., not phase 2 [after the power and delusion of the mind have been transcended] -returning to 'physical reality', rooting as omnipresent awareness,  understanding the power of the heart in "ordinary life").

4) Using your label of "emotional", it was noticed that you were unconscious of "the heart", I pointed out where that might originate from. You went further unconscious and started complaining about why I brought up your potential psychological stuff (i.e., unconscious emotional BARRIERS). Then shared a heart-wrenching story, which I acknowledged in alignment with your perception of it.

5) I asked you to take responsibility for "going there", and you went even further unconscious and now you are acting like your father, but with the ironic twist of labeling a perceived, unknown "other" as your father (the narcissist). Also, at your request, I focused almost the entire post on how "mind" is a tricky word in ancient Chinese, and how it must be penetrated, bot just read at some basic face value. But you're entire answer became very personal, and said absolutely ZERO about Zen/Huang Po or anything objective. And now you are "hoping" I become miserable with my life and my wife as you are "absolutely sure" I have not understood you even after I have supported you, provided context for your theory, and have continued to meet you on your terms.

This is indicative of a hall of mirrors, to be sure. This is the split-mind in action. It's typical for 'strictly and presently' left-brained theorists (hyper rational) to resort to ad hominem attacks (hyper emotional) when their theory starts to get exposed as questionable. Are you conscious of what is unfolding here? Your theory is purddy dang good, but you haven't actually realized what it is alluding to or are just in the progress of seeing it through (i.e., the wall).

But let's be clear, if you no longer "like me", I get it, and that's perfectly OK. The words on the page are all you have to go by, and you know nothing about my day-to-day reality, though it appears you seek others that are miserable, intense, and seeking to break the walls. That's cool; it can add to the intensity. In my experience, the journey does draaaaaiiiiiiin every last bit of energy, hope, and desire. There's no escape, but the mind will try over and over and over to conjure one. If you'd like to continue to project your hatred onto me, I am at your service. It might actually help. But one day, it may come to pass, that you might even find it in your heart of hearts to forgive... yes, even "that guy" whose voice, attitude, and condescension has taken root in the mind, echoing an unconscious sense of self (Suggestion: Study the simple Drama Triangle model -see below-, and then watch the movie Good Will Hunting a few times). In the model, most people will either see themselves as the rescuer/saviour or the victim, but rarely as the persecutor.  Our discussion exemplifies how your perception of me went from friendly co-rescuer to persecutor (of your theory, which I poked at),  and that you took personally, because you identified with the theory because it was about you (Breaking the wall). In the movie, there's drama, brilliance, delusion, selflessness, anger, redemption, and all the rest to observe and/or relate to. It might also shed a little more light on aspects of the journey.... dramas can be like that.

I do not know anything about you, BreakingtheWall. We're anonymous here, but I sense we'd prolly get along quite well. I love your intensity, and wish you nothing but the best. You've done well, my friend. I am not your enemy. I'm offering a simplicity, but as you are intuiting, it will get more intense.

Mind is the only thing that obscures Truth, and it's a rascal, indeed. Use it wisely, because the mind-heart (心)  is the most powerful tool through which we perceive and express the existence that arises. 

Hugs, brother. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

@kbone 🥱😴 I was talking about Huang po and about why he says: the reality is an infinite mind.

I'm not interested is 20 k words about emotional thing, just about Huang po. Also about why he says: enlightenment in nothing that you can achieve, it's already this. 

My post were about that, then you mentioned my parents, I don't know why, and I stupidly answered. 

Just Huang po, if you can say something definite and coherent

[kbone]

1 hour ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Breakingthewall

It seems to me, however, that the limitlessness of existence has a built-in limitation stemming from its very nature. This limitation is the aforementioned logic. For example, according to the logic NOTHIGNESS cannot exist, because NOTHINGNESS is identical to non-existence. Therefore, all that remains is existence. Existence, which has no beginning or end, cannot be interrupted. NOTHINGNESS cannot constitute an interval of existence, because NOTHINGNESS never occurs. I've noticed that many times here on this forum, NOTHIGNESS is often confused with EMPTINESS which is something utterly different.

Of course, we are dealing here with the limits of what the human mind can comprehend within the framework of available logic. Nevertheless, something within me tells me that 2 + 2 = 4, regardless of whether I'm the one doing the calculation or some super archangel from the 10th dimension.

 

NOTHINGNESS is a tough one for the mind to "conceive", because the mind is always limited by what it can imagine. The word is just a pointer, not an actuality, not the 'thing' itself (don't eat the menu, and think you've tasted the meal). It has been said, even by physicists, that "absolute nothingness" is not possible, as there is always "something" present/happening at the quantum level. The same could be said for "prior to mind", as the subconscious is always bubbling stuff up. The same could be said for the realization, as there's always continuity thereafter.

In their clearest renditions, they consistently point to the "absolute vacuum/nothingness/emptiness" as the greatest (i.e., infinite) potential. Mind is only the surface of a vastness that must be realized. Do what you will, but Truth will call in any number of ways, and the mind will react. If the mind is the master, what you think you are will wander in aimlessly in circles and loops marking out familiar, repetitive patterns until, welp, whenever it decides it has had enough. Only then does it get interesting.