Enlightened Centrist or Enlightened Progressive? Where Do You See Yourself, Leo?

[Hardkill]

I really appreciate the depth and clarity you bring to a wide range of topics, particularly when it comes to political ideologies and societal transformation. I’ve noticed that you often discuss the importance of compromise, moderation, and personal development, but you also emphasize the need for bold change in areas like social justice, economic reform, and climate action.

This got me thinking: when you reflect on your views, do you see yourself as more of an enlightened centrist or as an enlightened progressive? Specifically:

Do you see radical, systemic change (like universal healthcare or climate action) as something that’s necessary but must be implemented gradually through compromise and pragmatic solutions, which is more in line with centrism?

Or do you consider yourself more aligned with progressive ideals, advocating for transformative, bold reforms even if they require pushing against the status quo?

I understand that these labels can be limiting, but I’d love to hear your thoughts on how you navigate this balance between the moderate, pragmatic side and the more radical, progressive ideals.

I'd like to know for my own edification. Thanks for everything you do!

Edited June 29 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

I like bold reforms short of revolution. Revolution is simply counter-productive. But I am also very realistic so I know that bold progressive reforms will pretty much fail.

If I am centrist it's because I am forced into accepting political realities, not that it's my preferred view. For example, I would like to see action on climate change, but I know it's not going to happen.

Edited June 29 by Leo Gura

[gengar]

But why would you then take upon that stance of not caring about climate change simply because you're pessismistic about it

Plenty of climate change activists are pessimist about the situation yet still stand for what they believe in and nudge the world 0.0001% towards climate action

Why would you change your ideals when you're pessimist about them, that seems silly, the whole idea of ideals is that ideals is what you want, not what is there now

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, gengar said:

Why would you change your ideals when you're pessimist about them,

Because that means your ideals are out of touch with reality.

Don't assume your ideals are valid. That is an open question.

[Apparition of Jack]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Because that means your ideals are out of touch with reality.

Don't assume your ideals are valid. That is an open question.

We always come back to this point Leo. Just because something is true now doesn’t mean it has to be true always.

If you were a black South African in 1975 Apartheid would’ve seemed like an all-encompassing beast that was going to last forever, and yet less than two decades later it was abolished for good. Or if you were a Brit in 1940 after the fall of France, Hitler would’ve seemed unstopped and that democracy was doomed, and yet again less than five years later he had put a bullet through his skull and Europe was free. 
 

I mean, you’re the guy who literally has multiple 2hr+ videos on the power of vision, and yet it comes to actually using our vast human resources to actually meet the challenges of the world, suddenly we’re all “helpless realists?”

There’s a difference between being grounded and being defeatist. Sometimes it’s hard not to feel like your err towards the latter.

Edited June 29 by Apparition of Jack

[Hardkill]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I like bold reforms short of revolution. Revolution is simply counter-productive. But I am also very realistic so I know that bold progressive reforms will pretty much fail.

If I am centrist it's because I forced into accepting political realities. Not that it's my prefered view. For example, I would like to see action on climate change, but I know it's not going to happen.

So, then would you say that you're both a mix of an enlightened centrist and an enlightened progressive?

[Leo Gura]

@Apparition of Jack You are right in some respects, but I can also counter with examples like Palestine, which 70 years later is worse than ever.

I'm not so negative as you might think. I'm not here crying about WW3 or climate doom. I just see a lot of naive ideals on the left.

Yes, humanity is resilient. But is capitalism getting fixed any time soon? No.

[Lyubov]

That’s the spiritual lesson in politics I think. We have to come to terms with what is real and how things are in the present moment. I’m not saying don’t dream big, go for it. Strive for it. Set world changing intentions. Do everything you can to the best you can, but be careful if you don’t meet your own expectations. Largely speaking left wing political ideals are just aspirations. Holding onto an aspiration, how you wish reality to be, shouldn’t be confused with reality itself. The left sees that their expectations and aspirations aren’t reality and they use that as an excuse to create bitterness and not accept reality. That’s fine, not like that’s a “sin” or anything. But when you don’t accept reality, deny reality, you are not being honest with what is and therefore not living in truth. It’s a subtle line because some people claim their aspirations are what drives change.

Edited June 29 by Lyubov

[Joshe]

2 hours ago, Lyubov said:

some people claim their aspirations are what drives change

Aspiration does drive change. What is more dominant than aspiration? 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Joshe said:

Aspiration does drive change. What is more dominant than aspiration? 

Reality

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Reality

The reality is that we sadly need another crisis on the level of an economic depression or World War to reset everything back to normal.

At this point, while nobody can predict that far out ahead in the future I have a terrible feeling that we have to brace ourselves for dealing with another truly dark moment of extreme suffering around the world that we haven't seen in ages within the foreseeable future.

Edited June 29 by Hardkill

[Rafael Thundercat]

Nice to hear this conversation. A friend told me that appart of many qualities I have this tendency to be negative, but what she misunderstand is that I dont hold NewAge naivety that Aliens will show up and save the day, the world,nature etc.. or some Evangelicals belief that Jesus will come back and put stuff on order. Maybe was not a good ideia to read and keep reading history books, but history show clearly that even if we as humanity have so much beautifull aspects we still behave in general as devils with each other and with Nature, Nature that we in general take as separeted from us and that no matter what we do it will be ok always. But the true is that we are slowly commiting suicide.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Rafael Thundercat said:

But the true is that we are slowly commiting suicide.

I wouldn't call that true.

See. I'm not even negative enough to buy that.

Mankind by most metrics is thriving. If you take the news too seriously then it all seems like shit. But objectively life is about as abundant as it has ever been. But people always find something to whine about.

Edited June 29 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

The reality is that we sadly need another crisis on the level of an economic depression or World War to reset everything back to normal.

This sounds like magical thinking. Reset what back to what? How will that happen?

What is an economic depression going to solve?

Edited June 29 by Leo Gura

[Rafael Thundercat]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I wouldn't call that true.

See. I'm not even negative enough to buy that.

I know, i was just exagerating for sake of Trickstery. One trip to a Paradise in Bali maybe change this perspective.

[Rafael Thundercat]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Mankind by most metrics is thriving. If you take the news too seriously then it all seems like shit. But objectively life is about as abundant as it has ever been. But people always find something to whine about.

"Many of us are not living fully. We’re existing.

We’re waking up every day doing what we’ve always done - meeting expectations, showing up for others, moving through routines that keep us feeling safe… but not alive.

One of the deepest forms of self-abandonment is postponing joy."

- JILLIAN Turecki

Edited June 29 by Rafael Thundercat

[Hardkill]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This sounds like magical thinking. Reset what back to what? How will that happen?

What is an economic depression going to solve?

I absolutely don’t think this is magical thinking. I believe the truth is far more brutal: we’re in a horrible mess, and the price for getting out of it may very well be a crisis of some kind—one that shakes the system to its core and forces us to re-evaluate everything. The idea that something radical could come from chaos or upheaval isn’t some idealistic fantasy—it’s a brutal reality that history has shown time and again. Crises, while painful, have often been the catalysts for the most transformative change we’ve seen.

For instance, after the 2008 financial crisis, the disastrous War on Terror, and the election of Obama, many of us thought that this moment would heal the country and usher in a new era of progress—like the New Deal Coalition of the mid-1900s. We believed that with Obama’s election, the U.S. would unite, address issues like economic inequality, and make strides toward social justice. Yet, instead of ushering in great progress, we saw the rise of Trumpism and a retreat to nationalism and authoritarianism.

Similarly, after Trump’s defeat in 2020, many of us thought that Biden, the COVID crisis, and the greatest recession since the Great Depression would heal the country and lead to moderation and some reasonable progress for the coming years, if not decades. But, despite the crises, we still find ourselves in a deeply divided country, facing growing inequality and polarization. It seems like even the most significant crises don’t necessarily lead to the transformative change that many of us hoped for.

At this point, it’s starting to feel like we might need a crisis or a series of crises that are even more severe than either the 2008 financial crisis or the 2020 recession. Those crises were monumental, but they didn’t fully disrupt the entrenched systems—capitalism, political polarization, and corporate power—that continue to perpetuate the status quo. I’m afraid that we might need something more drastic, something that forces a true reset of the system. We may need a crisis that’s so severe it shakes everything to its core, not just pushing back against entrenched interests but completely dislodging them.

I’m not suggesting we wait passively for a catastrophic event to solve our problems, but I do think we have to acknowledge that some of the systemic issues we’re facing—whether it’s climate change, corporate control, or political dysfunction—are so entrenched that they may require a radical shock to finally force meaningful change. Without disruptions, we risk continuing down the same destructive path, stagnating while those in power maintain the status quo.

While incremental change is necessary and often the most practical approach, I believe that, at times, crises do provide the necessary catalyst for pushing through the deep, systemic reforms we need. Yes, it’s harsh, and it’s not ideal, but if history teaches us anything, it’s that change often happens in moments of extreme difficulty, when the old systems collapse under the weight of their own flaws.

That said, I understand where you’re coming from in terms of realism. It’s important to keep a balanced perspective and not simply rely on hope that something will suddenly “reset.” But I’d love to hear your thoughts on how we can push for transformation without waiting for a crisis, while also recognizing that we might be at a tipping point where a major disruption is the only way to break the grip of the current system.

Edited June 29 by Hardkill

[Lyubov]

I think life is just what it is. Who am I to say what it needs? Now I have my preferences and my thoughts, I think we should move towards governments that are less corrupt, more honest, prioritize values such as fairness, equality and transparency. But who knows if that will come to pass? The world just is and we can do the best we can moment to moment, for our own personal lives. Keep in mind we are still really blessed to have democracies where the average person at least has some say, for better or worse. We can engage in politics at least once every couple years or so. Let’s just be open to how it unfolds. It may get better, or may get worse. 

Edited June 29 by Lyubov

[Hardkill]

1 minute ago, Lyubov said:

I think life is just what it is. Who am I to say what it needs? Now I have my preferences and my thoughts, I think we should move towards governments that are less corrupt, more honest, prioritize values such as fairness, equality and transparency. But who knows if that will come to pass? The world just is and we can do the best we can moment to moment, for our own personal lives. Keep in mind we are still really blessed to have democracies where the average person at least has some say, for better or worse. We can engage in politics at least once every couple years or so. Let’s just be open to how it unfolds. It may get better, or may get worse. 

Prepare for bread lines in many parts of the world.

[aurum]

The more you think society is broken, the more you are going to feel the need to implement some radical solution.

This is an advanced trap a lot of progressives fall into.

 

Edited June 29 by aurum