Is There a Genocide in Gaza?

[Wilhelm44]

 

On 6/25/2025 at 0:50 AM, Raze said:

https://www.vox.com/politics/378913/israel-gaza-genocide-icj
 

https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-is-committing-genocide-in-gaza

https://archive.ph/Po29L
 

 

@samijiben  

It's interesting to note that even some scholars in Israel see this as a genocide.

(Omer Bartov is actually also a scholar of genocide studies.)

Might be a good idea to listen to an expert on this topic.

 

 

Edited June 27 by Wilhelm44

[Inliytened1]

It's more ethnic cleansing imo.  Genocide wouldn't in most cases be confined to one area.  It is the killing and not removal though - so that blurs the line.   But also keep on mind that there wouldn't have been ethnic cleansing if Oct 7 didn't happen.  The people Israel is trying to remove by any means wanted to take what Israel had and would have done the same.

Edited June 28 by Inliytened1

[Wilhelm44]

 

On 6/25/2025 at 0:50 AM, Raze said:

One of the first scholars to say Israel was committing genocide was Raz Segal, a professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Stockton University, who called it a “textbook case” in Jewish Currents just days after Hamas’s October 7, 2023, attack on Israel. Ahead of the one-year anniversary of Hamas’s attack, he told me he wished he had been wrong. 

“I fully stand behind my description of Israel’s attack on Gaza as a ‘textbook case of genocide’ because we’re still actually seeing, nearly a year into this genocidal assault, explicit and unashamed statements of intent to destroy,” he said. “The way that intent is expressed here is absolutely unprecedented.”

He said public statements by people with command authority in Israel — including state leaders, Cabinet ministers, and senior army officers — have repeatedly demonstrated genocidal intent that has been realized in the scale of the violence and destruction in Gaza. Other scholars I spoke to pointed to statements from Israeli officials last October, cited in the ICJ’s January preliminary ruling: 

Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called for a “complete siege” on Gaza and stated “we are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly,” apparently in reference to Hamas. 

Israeli President Isaac Herzog said it was “an entire nation out there that is responsible” for Hamas’s attack on Israel in reference to Palestinians. 

And Israel Katz, former Israeli minister of energy and infrastructure, vowed “no electric switch will be turned on, no water tap will be opened and no fuel truck” would enter Gaza until Hamas returned its Israeli hostages, suggesting Palestinians would face collective punishment.

Several other scholars who Vox spoke with last fall, at that point reluctant to say Israel was committing genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention, now appear to agree with Segal.

“Any early hesitation I had about applying the ‘genocide’ label to the Israeli attack on Gaza has dissipated over the past year of human slaughter and the obliteration of homes, infrastructure, and communities,” said Adam Jones, a professor of political science at the University of British Columbia who has written a textbook on genocide. “There is plenty of this demonization and dehumanization on the other side as well, but whatever peace constituency existed in Israel seems to have vanished, and there is a growing consensus for genocidal war, mass population transfer, and long-term eradication of Palestinian culture and identity.”

Among other things, Jones noted Israeli leadership’s recent plans to expel the entire remaining civilian population of northern Gaza and turn the territory into a military zone where no aid would be allowed as influencing his thinking on the issue. There is no indication of whether civilians would ever be allowed to return. This could be taken as an example of the kind of “state or organizational plan or policy” necessary to prove genocidal intent, he said. Though the plan, if it has been implemented, has not yet been seen to completion, it can still serve as evidence of intent.

Ernesto Verdeja, a professor of political science and peace studies at the University of Notre Dame, said it could be “called a genocide, even in a narrow legal sense, for several months now” given the accumulation of Israeli attacks clearly and consistently targeting the civilian population in Gaza.

A major tipping point for Verdeja and many other human rights experts was Israel’s ground offensive in Rafah in May. The Israeli military had been pushing civilians increasingly into the southern city, which connects Gaza and Egypt, telling them it was a safe zone while it pursued Hamas to the north. But by August, an estimated 44 percent of all buildings in Rafahhad been damaged or destroyed in heavy bombing. Israeli forces took over and shut down the Rafah border crossing, limiting the entry of humanitarian aid into Gaza. They killed civilians camping in tents in a humanitarian zone. When the ICJ ordered Israel to stop its offensive in Rafah, Israeli officials condemned the ruling and said it was open to interpretation, despite the fact that many human rights lawyers argued it was unambiguous. The assault on Rafah continued. 

“I wouldn’t say [Rafah was] necessarily the defining moment, but I think it’s indicative of a broader pattern where we see a genocidal campaign really crystallizing,” Verdeja said.

Michael Becker, a professor of international human rights law at Trinity College, Dublin, said, overall, the above incidents and others mean “South Africa has an ever-expanding repository of evidence that it can put before the [ICJ] as further evidence of genocidal intent,” which includes evidence suggesting Israel “has not meaningfully sought to comply” with the ICJ’s orders so far. 

Most people in this thread skipped over Raze's post on page 1. I'm just reposting one section here. (he's quoting from an article)

But it's interesting to read the views of quite a number of Israeli scholars on this subject, who are convinced that it is genocide.

 

[samijiben]

2 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

 

Most people in this thread skipped over Raze's post on page 1. I'm just reposting one section here. (he's quoting from an article)

But it's interesting to read the views of quite a number of Israeli scholars on this subject, who are convinced that it is genocide.

 

I read Raze's post. I looked at all the articles linked in this thread. I actually spoke with Amos Goldberg, but that was before the genocide. I am familiar with the intellectual position of those who regard Israel as the Evil Zionist Entity that occupies & colonizes & indiscriminately butchers its targets in this calculated, machiavellian genocide.

Not saying that Netanyahu isn't a deranged animal 

My point in this thread in terms of motivation was to implore you to gawk that, despite this being very hard if not Impossible to accept. this is not genocide, that is, it does not fall under the legal definition of genocide according to the logic I provided above which I believe to be flawed and imperfect. 

THE ACTUAL SITUATION ON THE GROUND may be much worse and terrific than "genocide," far beyond what any of us can ever imagine, though videos and footage gives us an idea of the horrors. Again, the situation on the ground in Gaza is beyond what we can know. We are not in Gaza. AIn't a single Gazan on the actualized.org forum. 

Ultimately, what is happening in Gaza is a philosophical matter. That cannot be known. Just like nothing can be known.

But according to the already-in-existence-legal definition of genocide that I did not personally create, the war in Israel does not categorically fall under that. I am not reinforcing a belief-system here. Can you please provide me an argument to change my mind? I feel like that Crowder Dickhead: "Change my mind!"

Seriously, I cannot see a possibility how this could be genocide. (again, according to legal definition of genocide and taking into account that we're gonna have to consider a ton more wars throughout histories as genocide if we're gonna bend the definition with such flexibility)

[Inliytened1]

13 minutes ago, samijiben said:

I read Raze's post. I looked at all the articles linked in this thread. I actually spoke with Amos Goldberg, but that was before the genocide. I am familiar with the intellectual position of those who regard Israel as the Evil Zionist Entity that occupies & colonizes & indiscriminately butchers its targets in this calculated, machiavellian genocide.

Not saying that Netanyahu isn't a deranged animal 

My point in this thread in terms of motivation was to implore you to gawk that, despite this being very hard if not Impossible to accept. this is not genocide, that is, it does not fall under the legal definition of genocide according to the logic I provided above which I believe to be flawed and imperfect. 

THE ACTUAL SITUATION ON THE GROUND may be much worse and terrific than "genocide," far beyond what any of us can ever imagine, though videos and footage gives us an idea of the horrors. Again, the situation on the ground in Gaza is beyond what we can know. We are not in Gaza. AIn't a single Gazan on the actualized.org forum. 

Ultimately, what is happening in Gaza is a philosophical matter. That cannot be known. Just like nothing can be known.

But according to the already-in-existence-legal definition of genocide that I did not personally create, the war in Israel does not categorically fall under that. I am not reinforcing a belief-system here. Can you please provide me an argument to change my mind? I feel like that Crowder Dickhead: "Change my mind!"

Seriously, I cannot see a possibility how this could be genocide. (again, according to legal definition of genocide and taking into account that we're gonna have to consider a ton more wars throughout histories as genocide if we're gonna bend the definition with such flexibility)

Let's be honest everyone wants to condemn Israel for what they are doing but I think when you talk of genocide you talk of a Hitler scenario.  Hitler wanted all Jews killed across the globe 

It didnt matter if they were in his nation. He wanted all Jews wiped off the earth.   Israel isn't doing that and I think that's the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing .  They just want them out of Israel.  But that is because of the persistent threat.   The veil of trust has been broken.   Israel isn't just killing people in Gaza just to kill them they are trying to destroy the resistance and imminent threat to their existence.   Im not saying it's right but it may not fall under the category of genocide.   Those who jump to that conclusion are not looking at the whole picture. 

Edited June 28 by Inliytened1

[samijiben]

20 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Let's be honest everyone wants to condemn Israel for what they are doing but I think when you talk of genocide you talk of a Hitler scenario.  Hitler wanted all Jews killed across the globe 

It didnt matter if they were in his nation. He wanted all Jews wiped off the earth.   Israel isn't doing that and I think that's the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing .  They just want them out of Israel.  But that is because of the persistent threat.   The veil of trust has been broken.   Israel isn't just killing people in Gaza just to kill them they are trying to destroy the resistance and imminent threat to their existence.   Im not saying it's right but it may not fall under the category of genocide.   Those who jump to that conclusion are not looking at the whole picture. 

Blaming Israel or even Bibi is just as dumb as saying this is a just war, for he who is truly at fault for this catastrophe is a much uglier beast than Bibi. It is the Deep State. Lol.

[Wilhelm44]

I took the time to actually watch this video:

When you look at the pattern of what Israel has done:

-  you see political and military leaders talking about destroying Gaza, flattening it, talking about Palestinians as human animals, saying that there are no uninvolved people, that it's not simply against Hamas, but against the entire population, ie statements/expressions of intent.

-  it turns out that these statements were not only made in the heat of the moment, but were implemented, you can see systematic destruction of universities, schools, mosques, museums, hospitals, housing and infrastructure, making it impossible for people to live in the Gaza strip, making it basically uninhabitable, and also making it impossible for the people to revive their cultural and educational life, by killing vast numbers of academics.

This means that the intention is to destroy the group as such.

And this intention has been implemented over time.

@samijiben  (Initially you said you don't know what's happening in Gaza and you are just looking for an answer, but clearly you already had a pretty fixed position that it's not genocide, otherwise you would not have had such a strong emotional reaction in some of the previous posts.)

So I have a feeling that no amount of evidence or logic is going to change your mind on this one.

Which means your Steven Crowder analogy is actually quite apt.

 

 

[samijiben]

12 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I took the time to actually watch this video:

When you look at the pattern of what Israel has done:

-  you see political and military leaders talking about destroying Gaza, flattening it, talking about Palestinians as human animals, saying that there are no uninvolved people, that it's not simply against Hamas, but against the entire population, ie statements/expressions of intent.

-  it turns out that these statements were not only made in the heat of the moment, but were implemented, you can see systematic destruction of universities, schools, mosques, museums, hospitals, housing and infrastructure, making it impossible for people to live in the Gaza strip, making it basically uninhabitable, and also making it impossible for the people to revive their cultural and educational life, by killing vast numbers of academics.

This means that the intention is to destroy the group as such.

And this intention has been implemented over time.

@samijiben  (Initially you said you don't know what's happening in Gaza and you are just looking for an answer, but clearly you already had a pretty fixed position that it's not genocide, otherwise you would not have had such a strong emotional reaction in some of the previous posts.)

So I have a feeling that no amount of evidence or logic is going to change your mind on this one.

Which means your Steven Crowder analogy is actually quite apt.

 

 

Yes, my mind is somewhat fixed that it does not fall under the legal definition of genocide that already exists. Kinda like how Nilsi in this thread told Hojo that schizophrenia can't be so loosely defined BECAUSE WE ARE WORKING WITH A PRESET STANDARD DEFINED BY SOCIETY (consensus agreement definition of genocide)

According to that definition, yes, I am quite sure that it is not genocide.

In regards to what is REALLY happening in Gaza, including the ACTUAL INTENTIONS of the Israeli government, I don't have a fucking clue, nor do you, so step down, Wilhelm. 

That is, until you provide a well-reasoned case for why it is genocide WITHOUT twisting and contorting the definition provided by the UN.

Of course, according to your logic, you have. 

So this is going nowhere. Agree to disagree? Lol. The line is completely blurred between pure self-deception and cleanly categorizing this catastrophe into any limited notions or encapsulations given by others. 

So, in the end, let the mystery be, but don't call it a genocide, for it is much worse than that — and more nuanced.

[Wilhelm44]

5 hours ago, samijiben said:

Yes, my mind is somewhat fixed that it does not fall under the legal definition of genocide that already exists. Kinda like how Nilsi in this thread told Hojo that schizophrenia can't be so loosely defined BECAUSE WE ARE WORKING WITH A PRESET STANDARD DEFINED BY SOCIETY (consensus agreement definition of genocide)

According to that definition, yes, I am quite sure that it is not genocide.

In regards to what is REALLY happening in Gaza, including the ACTUAL INTENTIONS of the Israeli government, I don't have a fucking clue, nor do you, so step down, Wilhelm. 

That is, until you provide a well-reasoned case for why it is genocide WITHOUT twisting and contorting the definition provided by the UN.

Of course, according to your logic, you have. 

So this is going nowhere. Agree to disagree? Lol. The line is completely blurred between pure self-deception and cleanly categorizing this catastrophe into any limited notions or encapsulations given by others. 

So, in the end, let the mystery be, but don't call it a genocide, for it is much worse than that — and more nuanced.

 

There are plenty examples of statement of intent from political and military leaders, see Raze's post, and the link I shared at the bottom of page 3.

Why don't you just do yourself a favor, and watch the interview with Omer Bartov.

Firstly, he is an Israeli who served in the military.

Secondly, he is an actual scholar of genocide studies, who has written many books on the very subject.

He is the last person who would be throwing the term genocide around loosely.

And you keep mentioning the UN definition of genocide.

I provided you with evidence that a special committee from the UN themselves concluded that it's genocide.

As did Amnesty International.

(I'm tired too, have provided enough evidence.) 

Peace

 

 

Edited June 28 by Wilhelm44

[Ramanujan]

europeans killed 150 million native americans and took their land. now they are doing the same to middle east . killing the palestinians and taking their land.

its settler colonialism basically

[samijiben]

9 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

 

There are plenty examples of statement of intent from political and military leaders, see Raze's post, and the link I shared at the bottom of page 3.

Why don't you just do yourself a favor, and watch the interview with Omer Bartov.

Firstly, he is an Israeli who served in the military.

Secondly, he is an actual scholar of genocide studies, who has written many books on the very subject.

He is the last person who would be throwing the term genocide around loosely.

And you keep mentioning the UN definition of genocide.

I provided you with evidence that a special committee from the UN themselves concluded that it's genocide.

As did Amnesty International.

(I'm tired too, have provided enough evidence.) 

Peace

 

 

Wilhelm, brother, let us conclude our definitional dancing on a positive note. 

Let us agree that it is impossible to prove that what is happening in Gaza is genocide (or not). Can we wrap it up there? That's a positive note!

Without downplaying or reducing the enormous weight of what's happening, can we acknowledge that neither of us truly know?

I take back everything I said. How about it, Wilhelm?

[Wilhelm44]

13 minutes ago, samijiben said:

Wilhelm, brother, let us conclude our definitional dancing on a positive note. 

Let us agree that it is impossible to prove that what is happening in Gaza is genocide (or not). Can we wrap it up there? That's a positive note!

Without downplaying or reducing the enormous weight of what's happening, can we acknowledge that neither of us truly know?

I take back everything I said. How about it, Wilhelm?

I think the best we can do is to agree to disagree, because if I agreed with what you are saying now, then I would be disagreeing with scholars who are more versed on this topic than I am. Peace brother.

[samijiben]

6 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I think the best we can do is to agree to disagree, because if I agreed with what you are saying now, then I would be disagreeing with scholars who are more versed on this topic than I am. Peace brother.

Lalala Peace

[Hatfort]

On 27/6/2025 at 9:21 PM, samijiben said:

9 hours ago, samijiben said:

Those numbers you are replying to are bull.

@Hatfort Give me a source that shows that 400,000 Gazans have been killed, half of which being children. 

These numbers were published by the Harvard University Dataverse platform some days ago. Not only that, Trump gave the 1.8 million number in the press conference he had with Netanyahu after their meeting, where he proposed their ethnic cleansing plan for Gaza. Not that Trump's words are to be taken at face value, but he usually lies to bloat himself or undermine others, but why would he refer to the population of Gaza as 1.8 if it's 2, 2.1, or 2.2? That would be a weird lie, so we have to consider that 1.8 is the number Netanyahu shared with him in their meeting.

Despite this, it's true we don't know for sure how many have been killed in this massacre, but it's precisely because the ones committing it are not letting the information be known, a way of misinforming, apart from targeting journalists on purpose, and blatantly lying all the time. At this point, many different organizations point out that the 50k dead number is a huge miscalculation. It's many more than that by far, unfortunately.

How many people are alive in Gaza now? It's an important question to know the extent of the genocide, just by comparing it to the previous population. We need to know that.

[Wilhelm44]

On 7/2/2025 at 11:12 AM, Hatfort said:

These numbers were published by the Harvard University Dataverse platform some days ago. Not only that, Trump gave the 1.8 million number in the press conference he had with Netanyahu after their meeting, where he proposed their ethnic cleansing plan for Gaza. Not that Trump's words are to be taken at face value, but he usually lies to bloat himself or undermine others, but why would he refer to the population of Gaza as 1.8 if it's 2, 2.1, or 2.2? That would be a weird lie, so we have to consider that 1.8 is the number Netanyahu shared with him in their meeting.

Despite this, it's true we don't know for sure how many have been killed in this massacre, but it's precisely because the ones committing it are not letting the information be known, a way of misinforming, apart from targeting journalists on purpose, and blatantly lying all the time. At this point, many different organizations point out that the 50k dead number is a huge miscalculation. It's many more than that by far, unfortunately.

How many people are alive in Gaza now? It's an important question to know the extent of the genocide, just by comparing it to the previous population. We need to know that.

Yeah, once journalists are allowed back in there, the true extent of the devastation and suffering will be revealed. Trump had the power to prevent this.

[Breakingthewall]

Obviously, it's not genocide, since genocide implies the intention to destroy an ethnic group, such as the Tutsis in Rwanda. The Israelis don't want to exterminate the Palestinians; they want to expel them. This doesn't mean they aren't guilty of a great injustice. We're already seeing the IDF intentionally shooting children and people in the distribution of food, preventing the entry of supplies, etc. But they don't want to kill millions of Palestinians; they want to kill as many as necessary to make them leave. I'm not defending Israel's actions. I think it's clear by now that they're supremacists and not "the most moral army in the world," but criminals. A real shame .

[Karmadhi]

On 6/28/2025 at 10:52 AM, Inliytened1 said:

Let's be honest everyone wants to condemn Israel for what they are doing but I think when you talk of genocide you talk of a Hitler scenario.  Hitler wanted all Jews killed across the globe 

It didnt matter if they were in his nation. He wanted all Jews wiped off the earth.   Israel isn't doing that and I think that's the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing .  They just want them out of Israel.  But that is because of the persistent threat.   The veil of trust has been broken.   Israel isn't just killing people in Gaza just to kill them they are trying to destroy the resistance and imminent threat to their existence.   Im not saying it's right but it may not fall under the category of genocide.   Those who jump to that conclusion are not looking at the whole picture. 

You are very ignorant on this issue. Genocide is not only the Holocaust, you have tons of other examples where there was genocide and the death toll was not a big percentage of the population

The Bosnian genocide is a great example of that

Just because Israel is not nuking Gaza does not mean they are not trying to wipe them out

They need to keep their PR up so they are doing it very slowly so it does not seem as genocide to Israeli supporters like yourself

And even if it is not genocide 100% who cares, it is 100x worse than what Hamas did so they are still on the wrong here and their actions are far more inhumane than what Hamas did which is the point