Conservatism = Higher birth rates = Sustainable Civilization

[Onecirrus]

Are the spiral dynamic stages above blue even sustainable long term? Without serious cultural coercion, Civilization becomes people just chasing comfort, luxury, entertainment, and recreation. Children are a hard sell to modern people, you need a lot of ideology and conservative values to get people on board with this stuff with the cost of living these days. Rather than solve this problem, stage Orange is speed running AI to make large populations unnecessary, and stage Green social solutions don’t appeal to enough of the populace to be a viable strategy. Stage Blue was pretty successful for like 5000 years, why couldn’t it last 5000 more?

[Sugarcoat]

I think what’s important in the world is reducing the suffering of all living sentient beings. Then what happens to humanity, if we eventually die of or decrease in amount doesn’t matter. It’s not like someone is sad for not being born lol , why is population increase important . Maybe some say it benefits the economy or something but there are other ways to sustain the current populace without the need of more humans, we just have to work smarter 

[Keryo Koffa]

You either grow out of blue or sustain it long enough for it become genocidal authoritarianism.
Survival is the original neurosis, if it's dependent upon suffering, perpetuating it is basically sin.

There's better things to do than maintaining the anthropocentric ego of a self-destructive species.

[Onecirrus]

@Keryo Koffa @SugarcoatBlue will outlive your idealistic nonsense about reducing suffering and ego. 

[Puer Aeternus]

2 hours ago, Onecirrus said:

Are the spiral dynamic stages above blue even sustainable long term? Without serious cultural coercion, Civilization becomes people just chasing comfort, luxury, entertainment, and recreation. 

Ya, I've noticed this too 

It's another big problem in that future that will have to be solved. Healthy social technology for making that a reality just isn't there yet. 

I don't think people understand how wicked the problem is. You can't just making cost of living and services more affordable and more people will start cheffing up children. It'll likely improve numbers but not reverse the trend. Flick the magic wand and make earth a utopia tomorrow and I bet people still might not be fuckin enough! 

It's very economic, cultural, global, quality of life, survival, and personal preference based (probably even more factors too).  That's why it's so difficult. Stage blue reproduction by pressure has kept humanity surviving, but it's produced sooooo much emotional damage and trauma. Ideally people are having kids because they want to and are actually healthy/ready to do so! But this isn't really what happens now.

We'll see how Japan and South Korea handle it- They should be the first where it becomes really problematic. What their consequences are and if they can cope or not.

 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Onecirrus said:

Stage Blue was pretty successful for like 5000 years, why couldn’t it last 5000 more?

Stage Blue will go extinct within 100 years.

Stage Blue is incapable of handling the rate of technological and cultural evolution.

Look at Blue Iran getting bombed into extinction.

Blue cannot compete with Orange. And Orange is also unsustainable because it is spiritually bankrupt.

Edited June 17 by Leo Gura

[Schizophonia]

@Onecirrus You can be green and have lots of kids, the population decline is not specifically related to SD.

 

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

@Onecirrus You can be green and have lots of kids, the population decline is not specifically related to SD.

It is related to SD.

Green has less kids than Blue.

[Onecirrus]

@Leo Gura Without strong cultural indoctrination to reproduce, how does orange or above continue long term? Do they just use AI and automation? What about economy? How do you sustain an economy and monetary system without human labor? 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Look at Blue Iran getting bombed into extinction.

What does getting bombed by Israel in this conflict really have to do with Spiral Dynamics? Hypothetically Iran could have better anti-aircraft weapons, what does that have to do with SDi? 

[Schizophonia]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is related to SD.

Green has less kids than Blue.

The "blue" countries mostly practice less contraception, still have strong family and social structures, and are too busy with survival to condition themselves to waste energy and money on useless things.

I don't like SD because the model implies an inclination of consciousness to evolve towards a supposedly objectively superior model; I say that there is only a fixed ideal place, a human nature that corresponds to its evolutionary process; like Heidegger.
 

Strictly speaking, the "ego evolution" model seems better. I know lots of blue caricatures who don't have children and green progressives or even well above (my mentor Franck Lopvet is a turquoise/coral intern, and he has lots of children that he adores)
 

So from there if you have engineered a prediction model that gives unpredicted results is a false model; there is something more/elsewhere, without having to talk about SD.
 

Lack of money, time, laziness, brain rot,narcissistic fear, self-hatred and anxiety…
 

 

Edited June 17 by Schizophonia

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

What does getting bombed by Israel in this conflict really have to do with Spiral Dynamics?

Has everything to do with it.

Iran is a backwards Blue regime.

If Iran was Orange they wouldn't be getting bombed.

Edited June 17 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, Onecirrus said:

how does orange or above continue long term?

Technology

[Carl-Richard]

Higher birth rates = more nukes. How does conservatism deal with nukes?

[Husseinisdoingfine]

But this is about Palestine, and nuclear weapons. Even if Iran was Turquoise, this wouldn't change the fact that Israel is committing atrocities in Gaza. This is also about Iran's nuclear weapons programs, which is the justification that Israel provided for the air strikes.

And even if I were to apply SDi to this context, there is still the fact that Israel and the west artificially lowers the levels of development for Gaza and broader Palestine.

 

[Onecirrus]

@Carl-Richard Are you trolling?

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Onecirrus said:

@Carl-Richard Are you trolling?

No. Are you?

[Onecirrus]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Higher birth rates = more nukes. How does conservatism deal with nukes?

Nuclear weapons came from Orange. India and Pakistani have them, they’re Blue countries and are pretty population dense. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make, your saying an orange country wouldn’t launch a nuke? America already has.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

But this is about Palestine

You made it about Palestine when it was not.

But Palestine too is dying because it is too low in development.

Every society that refuses to rapidly evolve to Orange and above will die.

That's exactly what you see in the news.

Edited June 17 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Onecirrus said:

your saying an orange country wouldn’t launch a nuke?

They would launch a nuke if cornered and given no other option. But Orange countries get along well enough that things never need to go that far.

Citing Hiroshima is a bad point. That was a special situation which no longer exists: WW2, low yield bombs, only US had bombs so no MAD, different era, different set of moral standards, different set of environmental standards, no global economy.

Edited June 17 by Leo Gura