How to get meditation to work: deconstruction

[Jordan]

@Natasha Tori Maru That is interesting. I am glad he could teach you some important lessons.

I often assume people that have mastered one area would usually be able to switch their focus on dealing with addictions and balancing their life at some point. It might be hard when you are good at something to start at square 1 for something else. It seems like after you walk face first into a wall 100 times with alcohol or woman you might want to find another way to go about things. I also have my own flaws, I just haven't mastered anything in particular haha.

[mats-2]

On 22.6.2025 at 0:55 AM, Inliytened1 said:

There is a genetic component.  Also most people don't do actial meditation or follow the meditation practices laid out in Leo's earliest videos - including self inquiry which is one of the most essential.  (That is enough deconstruction right there if you don't hold too tightly to any particular belief system.  Also timing.  One  needs to be in the right place in life where they are ready for Truth to be revealed.   This means they need a certain level of suffering prior to.doing it.  All of these components must fall into place at the right time for.awaleming to occurr during meditation.   But meditation, if done right, can alter your state and level of Consciousness. 

@Inliytened1I see everybody uses  the word deconstruction here. how does it work ? Do you question things with questions like "Who am I?". How do you know the deconstruction works? Do you have cognitions, falling away of beliefs etc. ?

Edited June 26 by mats-2

[James123]

11 minutes ago, mats-2 said:

@Inliytened1I see everybody uses  the word deconstruction here. how does it work ? Do you question things with questions like "Who am I?". How do you know the deconstruction works? Do you have cognitions, falling away of beliefs etc. ?

How you learned anything and everything, it is completely the opposite. Stop knowing, including yourself. 

[Carl-Richard]

13 hours ago, mats-2 said:

@Inliytened1I see everybody uses  the word deconstruction here. how does it work ? Do you question things with questions like "Who am I?". How do you know the deconstruction works? Do you have cognitions, falling away of beliefs etc. ?

Sit comfortably but upright, close your eyes and then imagine that what is now behind your eyelids is actually a completely different room than the room you think you're in. And then drop the notion that there is a room there at all. Just sit with what is actually there: greyish darkness, small visual sparkles. Then drop the notion that you are sitting on a chair (or whatever you are sitting on). Just stay with what you're sensing, the feeling of pressure under your butt, the sensation of your arms on your sides. Just stay with the sensations. Then drop the notion that you have a face or a head. Just stay with the sensations that supposedly make up the face and head. Then drop the notion that you have a body at all. You're just sensations floating in consciousness. And even that is a notion to be dropped at some point.

Keep doing this with whatever notion that pops into your head and that is keeping you tethered to some constraint or limitation.

Edited June 27 by Carl-Richard

[mats-2]

I will try that, thanks.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Jordan Yes, its always interesting the flaws one has that act as a dichotomy with our purest aspects.

My grandfather always showed up to me as quite enlightened.

He just had ferocious appetites for wine and women.

It might be interesting to note, in my experience, those coupled with a large drive to assist others, or creative drive, labour under some extreme sensory addiction burdens. How aware one is of them is really a function of how conscious they are. Being able to actually handle shadow drives, is another thing entirely! The gifts we are given, if not used, backfire inwardly on oneself.

Sometimes those who shine brightest project the deepest and darkest shadows.

Inescapable.

[Carl-Richard]

A large part of letting go or deconstructing in meditation is becoming aware of cycles (of thought) or things you're attached to. For example, when sitting down to meditate, do you notice feeling some pressure to do something later that day or after stopping meditating? Simply tell yourself that there is nothing you need to do, let go of the need of having to do it. Trust yourself that you will do what is needed despite having let go of the need to do it. If you're acting from a place of presence, you will do what is needed when it's needed. You don't need to worry.

Simply staying with presence is what you're after in meditation, but these cycles keep taking you out of it if you do not become aware of them. That's what deconstruction is about; allowing presence to unfold by letting go of your compulsive tendencies and attachment to things. And in the end, it's about letting go of everything you ever care about. If you really want to go all the way to Enlightenment, you can't take yourself with you. That's the harsh truth of Enlightenment. If you think you want Enlightenment, you are mistaken. Do you want to see the end of you?

Edited July 13 by Carl-Richard

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Yes - that trust that you will know precisely what to do, and when, exactly as you should. You won't forget whatever it is you are thinking of doing in the future. Because there is no future - that world doesn't exist. It is part of the conceptual landscape of reality the very act of deconstructing is attempting to surgically remove. The same with the past. All things we are actively doing that remove you from being. There is only now and your direct experience. 

You are NOT that thing.

No fear - that's a big one for me. No fear at seeing your end, because it is truly the beginning. Deconstruct the fear, as you are afraid of the no-self.

I still cannot understand the crew here who meditate constructively. I don't understand how it works - I take on beliefs and concepts like an addiction!

[Eskilon]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I still cannot understand the crew here who meditate constructively.

Lol there's no such thing. The method here is valid, if there's a memory of yourself in meditation you could deconstruct that. It's especially useful in the beginning of sessions and if you are a very novice meditator. But once you go past that you dont need to deconstruct anything, you need to expand your awareness, but not as a self, as awareness itself, no words or concepts. And then its just a game of waiting for awakening(I am not awake btw, still waiting ).

Quote

I take on beliefs and concepts like an addiction!

We are addicted to activity. It's really hard to let go of activities, especially if you have a lot of energy and a curious mind.

Edited July 13 by Eskilon

[Natasha Tori Maru]

19 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Lol there's no such thing. The method here is valid, if there's a memory of yourself in meditation you could deconstruct that. It's especially useful in the beginning of sessions and if you are a very novice meditator. But once you go past that you dont need to deconstruct anything, you need to expand your awareness, but not as a self, as awareness itself, no words or concepts. And then its just a game of waiting for awakening(I am not awake btw, still waiting ).

I should hope so!

I will say for myself, there is always something to deconstruct.

I can experience, and have experienced, no-self states. Being. I don't like to share stuff about enlightenment - I don't want to taint anyone with belief. Sometimes I do enter states of being outside of meditation. But only ever following some intense and prolonged sessions. Additionally - my other way to experience being is to do art. The process for me is timeless. Sun goes up, sun goes down. I won't notice. Just the pencil as it is destroyed against the paper - and creating something else simultaneously. I highly recommend creativity like this!

But outside those states I am constructing all over again.... what a crack addict I am

The deconstruction is an ever-present necessity.

I don't want to think about waiting for an awakening or aiming for it, as this is something else to deconstruct. 

All I know is I am DOING this - I can tell when I do it, and I am gradually working on halting this in its tracks. This whole process is what we have been taught our entire lives - and I have 39 years of this habit to break >.<

Edited July 13 by Natasha Tori Maru

[Eskilon]

40 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I don't like to share stuff about enlightenment - I don't want to taint anyone with belief

Natasha Buddha Maru . This is a proper attitude, that is not revered enough.

 

40 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

But only ever following some intense and prolonged sessions. Additionally - my other way to experience being is to do art. The process for me is timeless. Sun goes up, sun goes down. I won't notice. Just the pencil as it is destroyed against the paper - and creating something else simultaneously. I highly recommend creativity like this!

I like to understand and learn. Especially because the first 23 years of my life I was like a zombie(25 now) -- like really just full mechanistic existence and full of addictions. After I discovered spirituality and consciousness work, its just mini-awakenings after the other, and I never thought I had this much intelligence inside of me. So when I am learning something that I am really curious about(almost everything lol) I get into this state that you are talking here, theres just the act you are no more and theres profound gratitude that I am able to explore topics lol if that makes sense. 

Sometimes I wake up too excited to explore that meditating right at that time it's difficult because it's hard to let go of that energy, at least for me.

 

40 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I don't want to think about waiting for an awakening or aiming for it, as this is something else to deconstruct. 

Yeah I dont mean like a desire for it, not even a subtle one should exist, it was just to try to communicate my point 😣.

One should step in meditation and expect nothing in return, just be and see where it goes. The attitude should be, even if you try your whole life and "didn't get it" you are okay with it. At least you tried your best, and there's nothing that could've been done better on your part. This is true devotion.

40 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

All I know is I am DOING this - I can tell when I do it, and I am gradually working on halting this in its tracks. This whole process is what we have been taught our entire lives - and I have 39 years of this habit to break >.<

Can I ask you a question ? Do you have I thoughts during "normal" life? Like do you say to yourself " I am doing x, I should do x, I could have done x better" or do you just play with concepts without the I identity?

I curious to know because I am an intuitive person and in my experience I dont ever encounter the word I in my head lol. Its just images, concepts, insights, and abstract stuff, I wonder if some people can relate here😅

Edited July 13 by Eskilon

[Natasha Tori Maru]

21 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Yeah I dont mean like a desire for it, not even a subtle one should exist, it was just to try to communicate my point 😣.

Ah yes, I get you - we have to use concepts to illustrate after all

22 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Can I ask you a question ?

I do not know - can you?

23 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Do you have I thoughts during "normal" life? Like do you say to yourself " I am doing x, I should do x, I could have done x better" or do you just play with concepts without the I identity?

Definitely as you describe - concepts without identity. Usually while during normal life the thought is 'That's the future - a fantasy'. 'In the past again, a story'. And these are always concepts or narratives/ideas/beliefs. It is consistently a story about the future, or an attempt to understand something. I have never been one to dwell on the past. Regret, envy, jealousy. I don't have much experience of them. I don't really know how I think all the time, as it is so fast I cannot grasp it. All I know is all elements of my ego are me actually doing it. Thoughts don't ever just come out of nowhere. Same with feelings. They don't come out of nowhere. Always self generated. Always a cage.

I am consistently attempting to find a frame and systematic way to understand something. This is something I am trying to actively stop. As it gets right between me and meat of the experience. The challenge of society and this way of life is that you cannot get far without actively understanding things. Survival ay? FUCK IT

So, when we try to engage in these practices.... well. We have everything working against us, eh? 

Because I was raised in a very odd and isolated way - many of the structures of society that work against 'being' weren't present. I was in that experience until age 20 or so. Then life got in the way. Now it is a return to what I previously had. 

You are way ahead of me on the path if you are 25 - and although I should not compare - it is more a way for me to feel so happy for you <3

[Eskilon]

Quote

I do not know - can you? 

👉👈

49 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Definitely as you describe - concepts without identity

You are a mutual then

 

49 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

. Usually while during normal life the thought is 'That's the future - a fantasy'. 'In the past again, a story'. And these are always concepts or narratives/ideas/beliefs. It is consistently a story about the future, or an attempt to understand something

I see.

 

49 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

have never been one to dwell on the past. Regret, envy, jealousy. I don't have much experience of them

Me too I never understood how can people have envy, or jealousy. It's alien to me. Regret I have mixed feelings, definetly had some, but with enough reflection and contemplation every experience is necessary for your growth and understanding. So I can recontextualize difficult or unwise experieces. I tend to say that if you look with enough Love everything was/is valid. Love is the great overwriter .

 

49 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I am consistently attempting to find a frame and systematic way to understand something. This is something I am trying to actively stop. As it gets right between me and meat of the experience. The challenge of society and this way of life is that you cannot get far without actively understanding things. Survival ay? FUCK IT

Yeah, survival demands activity and understanding, which can definitely be an obstacle to spiritual work. But I would say society at large is not doing the kind of understanding we are doing here though(No arrogance or ego intended). 

 

49 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Because I was raised in a very odd and isolated way - many of the structures of society that work against 'being' weren't present. I was in that experience until age 20 or so. Then life got in the way. Now it is a return to what I previously had. 

This explain why you are so smart hihi . I wish to see the day and society where we are taught spirituality and consciousness work from the very beginning. What kind of being will that generate once everyone on the planet is doing this ? It's fascinating to think about sometimes

 

49 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You are way ahead of me on the path if you are 25 - and although I should not compare - it is more a way for me to feel so happy for you <3

Thank you! . I am doing my best, although not perfect, always trying to learn from every experience . You are very kind and intelligent, makes me think what you went through in life to be where you are. Granted must have been very challeging.

But as far as I understand in this human experience, you are only as great as the ammount of suffering you went through, much love.   

Edited July 13 by Eskilon

[Carl-Richard]

18 hours ago, Eskilon said:

Lol there's no such thing. The method here is valid, if there's a memory of yourself in meditation you could deconstruct that. It's especially useful in the beginning of sessions and if you are a very novice meditator. But once you go past that you dont need to deconstruct anything, you need to expand your awareness, but not as a self, as awareness itself, no words or concepts. And then its just a game of waiting for awakening(I am not awake btw, still waiting ).

To think of deconstruction as a beginner exercise is a misunderstanding. You need to deconstruct a shit ton, again and again in every meditation. Only when you're advanced and on the verge of Enlightenment and the deconstruction is habitual, you can sit and "wait" and amazing things will just happen. But even then, there is often a subtle deconstruction going on at the level of energy:

 

 

Edited Sunday at 11:13 PM by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

21 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

All I know is I am DOING this - I can tell when I do it, and I am gradually working on halting this in its tracks. This whole process is what we have been taught our entire lives - and I have 39 years of this habit to break >.<

It's breakable by just practicing regularly and with the aim of letting go of things. Gary Weber did it with 20k hours of practice while working as a head of R&D in materials science with a quarter billion dollar budget. But if you want to speed it up, better be unemployed and make it your full-time job.

Edited Monday at 01:54 AM by Carl-Richard

[Inliytened1]

On 6/15/2025 at 6:57 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Why is meditation so controversial? Why doesn't it work for some people but for others it explodes?

Some people approach meditation like a technique only, a practice, a thing you must do with great focus, without deviation, without error, like following your breath, or "doing nothing", or watching your thoughts. This forms a central aspect of meditation, of cultivating awareness, attention, single-pointedness of mind. However, it is not the whole story.

If meditation is supposed to transform your very relationship to reality, the very way you interface with life, your meditation must reflect this. Such a thing is not simple. It's a complex equation that involves unwinding patterns of your mind, of beliefs, attachments, desires, drives, reactions, responses, habits, notions. In short, it involves deconstruction. In meditation, you have to deconstruct the notion

• that you are a person sitting with your eyes closed
• that there is a world outside with things happening and things needing to be done
• that tomorrow or today or right now there are things needing to be done
• that you fundamentally care about what happens today, tomorrow or at any time
• that you have a life with goals and places you want to be and places you don't want to be
• that you are in control of your bodily movements
• that your bodily sensations correspond to a notion which you call your physical head or face
• that you have a head or face
• that you are sitting somewhere
• that you are sitting
• that you are breathing
• that you are awake
• that you have eyes that are looking at an empty space behind your eyelids
• that the feelings under your butt or feelings all around in your body correspond to the notion of a body that exists in physical space
• the list goes on...

You want to identify and go underneath all the notions that you project onto reality, consciously and unconsciously. For example, when identifying the notion that you are sitting on your butt and that your feelings under your butt reflect this, drop the notion and focus on the feelings. Feel them for what they are in themselves. Harvest all your effort and attention and try to feel exactly what they are. Then contrast the feeling with the notion you previously connected to them, the notion of a butt sitting on some surface, and see how vacuous that notion was.

The notion created an imaginary object in your mind that the feelings were slotted into. But when investigating the feelings themselves, the object was nowhere to be found. The feeling in themselves are like vaguely scattered pins and needles and feelings of pressure with no definite location or structure. But this is only one trivial notion out of hundreds and maybe thousands that you have to sort through before your consciousness lightens to the point where it can uphold states of Enlightenment. For every notion you investigate and drop, your consciousness becomes a little more fluid, a little more clear, a little lighter.

Additionally, meditation is fundamentally experimental. There is no set recipe for what to tackle first or for how long to tackle each thing or in what way. It's whatever your mind throws at you, and you attend to that with all your abilities. There are so many different moods, states, headspaces and bodily configurations (breathing, posture, feeling into energetic movements, devotion, sensuality, vulnerability) that you are capable of inducing and that can be conducive to deepening the meditation, and they must all be tested. Harvesting the power of your intuition and imagination and fundamentally trusting yourself and trusting the process is the only process.

All in all, your full energy and attention should be on how you can crack this nut of existence and dissolving the patterns that keep you stuck, harvesting your imagination, intuition and reason to uncover the techniques and hacks on how to do that, while releasing all blockages on all levels (bodily, emotionally, psychologically). It's the biggest project that you can embark on and requires all of your intellectual capacities, all of your intelligence, all of your devotion and passion. And in the end, you have to willing to give up everything for knowing the truth of existence and merging with Divine Love and Consciousness.

I think people get lost in the protocol of meditation and thus miss the boat of meditation.  It's meant to stop all thought.   But it ends up creating more thought when you build a science around it.  Just keep it simple.  No need to deconstruct because meditation will do that for you.  Sit.  And sit without thought.  If you want to have thoughts which you ultimately will, be meta aware of them and then let them go.  It's about self reflection and turning Consciousness back onto itself.

Edited Sunday at 10:30 PM by Inliytened1

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

I think people get lost in the protocol of meditation and thus miss the boat of meditation.  It's meant to stop all thought.   But it ends up creating more thought when you build a science around it.  Just keep it simple.  No need to deconstruct because meditation will do that for you.  Sit.  And sit without thought.  If you want to have thoughts which you ultimately will, be meta aware of them and then let them go.  It's about self reflection and turning Consciousness back onto itself.

You just explained deconstruction. I just gave specific examples of deconstruction. That is not to complicate but to illustrate, although that will also be misunderstood. All pointers will be misunderstood. Yes, sit and notice that when you let things go, sitting becomes easier. It's that simple. But most are unaware how deep letting go, goes. And that depth can be illustrated.

Dealing with pointers is an eternal struggle that you do not get out of by "not complicating things". Even simplifying things in the form of a pointer is to complicate things. The very act of pointing is inherently misleading. But some may benefit of certain pointers more than others and at different points in time. That's all that can be said. For those who point, you just throw spaghetti against the wall and see if it sticks. Or you beat them with a Zen stick. That's the game. If you don't want to play, don't.

Edited Sunday at 11:41 PM by Carl-Richard

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

I think people get lost in the protocol of meditation and thus miss the boat of meditation.  It's meant to stop all thought.   But it ends up creating more thought when you build a science around it.  Just keep it simple.  No need to deconstruct because meditation will do that for you.  Sit.  And sit without thought.  If you want to have thoughts which you ultimately will, be meta aware of them and then let them go.  It's about self reflection and turning Consciousness back onto itself.

Isn't this just deconstruction?

[Inliytened1]

37 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Isn't this just deconstruction?

Yes of course.  But meditation shouldn't be. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

22 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yes of course.  But meditation shouldn't be. 

This is just an ideal.

When you know what it is and just do without thinking - this seems obvious.

But you need to get there. 

The way we are raised - inoculated against spirituality, our truth - leaves people totally lost with this stuff.

Deconstruction is what you do to achieve the state.

And in my experience, to get at the being state, there is always some deconstruction needed. 

Even if all it takes is 2-3 minutes of deconstruction after a full day of hard, stressful work. Then into that state.

Like taking a hot shower at the end of the day - you emerge cleansed. 

The shower is like a deconstruction.

Edited Monday at 12:39 AM by Natasha Tori Maru