The Purpose Of A Girlfriend Is To Dream Deeper Into The Matrix

[Natasha Tori Maru]

All of my largest growth steps, revelations and unravelling of inner deception (which is synonymous with belief) have been through repression work. 

Just my 2C 

[aurum]

5 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

All of my largest growth steps, revelations and unravelling of inner deception (which is synonymous with belief) have been through repression work. 

Just my 2C 

Of course.

You're all a bunch of liberal, freedom junkies 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 minutes ago, aurum said:

Of course.

You're all a bunch of liberal, freedom junkies 

you little shit 

Brb with the pitchforks 😈😈😈 🤣

[aurum]

You could say repression is most important to focus on, but only if you radically expand your definition of repression to include loss of freedom.

[Emerald]

36 minutes ago, aurum said:

I think I understand it fine.

I'm trying to share with a perspective I've developed over the past five years, coming from profound insights into repression, freedom and authenticity. This is not something I'm just pulling out of my ass. 

If you think I don't understand repression, you're welcome to share where I'm going wrong.

Focusing on repression is fine as a first step, but it's not nearly enough.

But you clearly don't understand what repression is and what integration means, since you described integration as "the foolishness of liberalism and Stage Green"

And I just get tired of the subtle tactic you use to invalidate my perspectives to frame my views as "Tier 1 thinking and liberal ideological tripe that's not to be taken seriously" while you imply that your views are more meta and Tier 2 and higher consciousness that I 'just don't get yet'.

And you rely too much on the Spiral Dynamics model as an appeal to authority to pigeon-hole your debate opponent's perspectives as lower consciousness and frame your perspectives as Tier 2.

Let's be real and honest. That's what you usually do when you argue with me on here. And it just comes across as smug and un-earned. But that also describes lots of guys on this forum.

You didn't used to be like this as much as you are now, so I think you're picking up on bad debating habits and certain logical fallacies.

You're honestly being a bit of Dunning-Kruger on these topics, where you don't realize that you're not aware of what Femininity really is (as you said yourself that you only see it from the narrow lens of "What I like sexually/romantically") and you're not aware of what integration really means because you're seeing integration as confined to a single Spiral Dynamics stage when the whole entire journey up the spiral is a process of integration. 

Now, there is more to knowing yourself than integration... but knowing yourself is definitionally not possible without integration.

Repression is the lack of consciousness regarding parts of yourself that are in your blindspot. ( Side note: We also have a collective Shadow where certain people and perspectives are in that collective blindspot)

So, you would need to focus on integration first, as you can't do anything to get to know these unconscious parts of yourself without integrating them first. And most people's Feminine side is deeply repressed. 

So, we need to start at square one with Feminine integration... which is dropping resistance and "making the unconscious conscious".

But you would also need to go through the process of individuation to get more in touch with yourself as well relative to the Feminine side or any other part of yourself that you might hope to integrate.

So, it's integration first... and then practical exercise of these qualities in external world contexts second.

For example, let's say that I grew up in a society that saw creativity as evil and as a "work of the devil". And any sign of valuing creativity in any way would get you shunned from society.

We, that would very likely lead me to create an identity that's in opposition to creativity. And I would find ways to make myself unconscious to any tendencies towards creativity. That's what repression is.

But let's say that I cannot repress creativity because it's so innate to me. Then, I would have to suppress it actively because I am conscious of it. It's not in the Shadow but I have to keep it suppressed.

In this case, the integration of my creative side is (at least partially) the status quo for me.

But because there is no external outlet for expression and practice of this creativity... I never get to know this creative part of myself beyond what I can explore from the confines of my own imagination, which only stretches so far.

But because my creativity is integrated and I wasn't raised in a society where I have to suppress that creative drive, I spent about 7 years of my life primarily focused on creating art. And I went to college for it... and I was a high school art teacher for a couple years, even.

And the development of that creativity and my authentic creative voice would not have become as known to me as it currently is if I just had it integrated but didn't take any action on it.

But... if I have it repressed I'm going to be TOTALLY unconscious to it and disconnected form it... and it will come out in toxic ways.

But if I integrate it, I will become conscious of it... and it's less likely to express in toxic ways... even if I don't follow a path of individuation relative to creative expression. But I am also more likely to try to seek an outlet for deeper exploration.

[Emerald]

20 minutes ago, aurum said:

You could say repression is most important to focus on, but only if you radically expand your definition of repression to include loss of freedom.

Integration is largely about the integration of opposites along all spectrums. 

So... it is the integration of expansion and contraction... and freedom and temperance... and limitation and unlimitedness.

In fact, things like expansion and freedom are Masculine principled values... while contraction and constraint are Feminine principled values.

A great artist doesn't paint a painting with EVERY color on their palette. They exercise limitation and only choose 2 or 3, because it helps their creative work come to fruition (which is Masculine expansion).

So, you have to contract to expand... constrain yourself to be free... and limit yourself to realize your infinite nature in a meaningful way.

And you must integrate the Feminine to have positive Masculine expression.

Edited Wednesday at 08:15 PM by Emerald

[Emerald]

46 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

All of my largest growth steps, revelations and unravelling of inner deception (which is synonymous with belief) have been through repression work. 

Just my 2C 

That's also been my experience over the past 13 years of doing Shadow Work.

Thank you for sharing.  

[Schizophonia]

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

you little shit 

Brb with the pitchforks 😈😈😈 🤣

I suspected I wasn't the only BDSM fan here. 🤔

[aurum]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And I just get tired of the subtle tactic you use to invalidate my perspectives to frame my views as "Tier 1 thinking and liberal ideological tripe that's not to be taken seriously" while you imply that your views are more meta and Tier 2 and higher consciousness that I 'just don't get yet'.

And you rely too much on the Spiral Dynamics model as an appeal to authority to pigeon-hole your debate opponent's perspectives as lower consciousness and frame your perspectives as Tier 2.

Let's be real and honest. That's what you usually do when you argue with me on here. And it just comes across as smug and un-earned. But that also describes lots of guys on this forum.

You didn't used to be like this as much as you are now, so I think you're picking up on bad debating habits and certain logical fallacies.

That's mostly right.

I keep insisting that I'm trying to show you expanded perspective, and you keep insisting that I'm not and that you know more than me.

So who is right? And who is really the smug one?

That's the core tension we have going on.

My perspective has evolved a lot over the years, so yes it might come across as different interacting with me now.

 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

That's mostly right.

I keep insisting that I'm trying to show you expanded perspective, and you keep insisting that I'm not and that you know more than me.

So who is right? And who is really the smug one?

That's the core tension we have going on.

My perspective has evolved a lot over the years, so yes it might come across as different interacting with me now.

All you have to do is actually explain your perspective in detail without engaging in dishonest debate tactics.

So not pigeon-holing my perspectives with empty appeals to authority via the lens of Spiral Dynamics... and trying to frame things in such a way that puts my perspective underneath yourself using your understanding of the SD model.

It's just intellectually lazy to debate like that as it puts your debate opponent in the box of inferior perspectives that need not be taken seriously.

But with this case in particular, you're just incorrect about integration... and thinking about integration as meaning only freedom with no constraint.

You seemed to be interpreting integration as analogous to being a libertine or something like that... which is not accurate. You can be just as repressed if you're a libertine with no constraint as you can be being an uptight teetotaler. 

So, this shows a clear lack of understanding about what repression is and what integration is.

So, it's important to know when you don't know... instead of trying to grand-stand on topics you don't know that much about.

If you'd like to learn more about the integration... and specifically integration of the Masculine and Feminine through a deeper lens, I recommend checking out the book Androgyny by June Singer.

It's a dense read, but it was really helpful to me when I first started learning about Jungian Psychology and integration of the Masculine and Feminine... which helped me make sense of my experiences of the deep Feminine several years prior to that.

https://a.co/d/fSkj60C

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:07 PM by Emerald

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I suspected I wasn't the only BDSM fan here. 🤔

My subconscious has been revealed in this strategic play...

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

That's also been my experience over the past 13 years of doing Shadow Work.

Thank you for sharing.  

Pleasure!

It is an aspect everyone should be driving into.

In relationship to others repression is further revealed, also.

There is a lot to gain from solo inner work. But there is a reason the polarity of masculine/feminine exists.

I take pleasure in experiencing this inner friction as everything to me is a learning experience.

Even suffering... especially suffering

 

Edited Thursday at 12:10 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[aurum]

@Emerald I will do my best to not assume my perspective is higher. But I’m going to ask you extend that same curtesy to me. 

[Emerald]

59 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Pleasure!

It is an aspect everyone should be driving into.

In relationship to others repression is further revealed, also.

There is a lot to gain from solo inner work. But there is a reason the polarity of masculine/feminine exists.

I take pleasure in experiencing this inner friction as everything to me is a learning experience.

Even suffering... especially suffering

Absolutely, relationship with others (romantic or platonic) is such a powerful conduit for inner work because you can see so many reflections of yourself in another.

One thing that's been really helpful to me is that I've been a coach for the past 6.5 years. And working with a lot of people, it's really taken so much of my own patterns and struggles up out of the abstract and into the real world.

There's nothing more helpful to the integration process that recognizing your own patterns in another person.

I actually just got out of a group coaching session for my coaching program, and people share a lot as a whole group and in breakout rooms. And it's awesome, because people get to experience so much mirroring on their patterns and their path... which can otherwise feel invisible without that mirroring.

And yes, when it comes to Masculine and Feminine integration... there's a lot of friction and suffering there too. And the surface-level expressions and symptoms of this lack of integration can be frustrating.

But it does make it a lot more interesting and mysterious at the same time when you see what the real under-lying drivers are to all this surface level stuff.

[Emerald]

11 minutes ago, aurum said:

@Emerald I will do my best to not assume my perspective is higher. But I’m going to ask you extend that same curtesy to me. 

As always, I will always take your perspective on, on its merits... and I will challenge you where I see fit, like I do with everyone else.

So, it's not about your assumption that your perspective is more accurate/better/higher than mine. That's just the nature of having a perspective.

If you thought my perspective was more accurate/better/higher than your current perspective, you'd just change your viewpoint.

So, I'm going to challenge you. And you're going to challenge me. That's not the problem, as that's what this forum is for.

My issue is about you using dishonest debate tactics... like using Spiral Dynamics as a subtle way to put my perspective in a box and to subtly communicate "this perspective is beneath consideration because it's just Stage Green liberal tripe". 

So, just think when you're using the Spiral Dynamics model... "Am I using this as a subtle way to discount the merits and straw man the perspective of the other person by framing them as Tier 1 and lower consciousness?"

Edited Thursday at 01:24 AM by Emerald

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

My issue is about you using dishonest debate tactics... like using Spiral Dynamics as a subtle way to put my perspective in a box and to subtly communicate "this perspective is beneath consideration because it's just Stage Green liberal tripe". 

I will take that to heart.

I want you to understand though, that's not what is happening from my POV.

When you write something, I DO consider it.

I read it multiple times, I pause, I think about it, I write something back, I edit it, I edit again, I edit it a third time.

It's a slow, deliberate process. 

It's also the case that SD Green arguments feel like remedial math to me. I lived it, chewed on it and moved on. I know the memes very well, including where they go right and where they go wrong. In that sense, I can see how it comes off as dismissive.

I also don't always explain myself. I say things vaguely and expect people to think about them for themselves. But that vagueness can also seem like I'm not engaging with the argument, because I'm not explicitly answering the question.

So that's my feedback.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@aurum

Wow - this is a remarkably similar process to my posting style. Thank you for sharing.

I have 2 differences:

 1. Occasionally I just let fly and don't hesitate with a subject if I feel there is creative leeway, this is when stupid Aussie slang finds its way in.

 2. I often walk away for hours at a time, return, and reread my responses for logical accuracy and correctness. During the away time, if the subject is very nuanced and requires diligence and care, I will often go for a run, walk the dog, etc and process. This helps me fit patterns and be able to use metaphor to better illustrate the idea. Also to ensure I have addressed the arguments properly. I often visualise and imagine verbally each argument & counter argument as a spar in my mind - especially when I go for runs. I find this method very useful when others have presented an argument that has changed my mind and I am incorporating it into a new frame to regurgitate back to them. If you get my meaning.

There is a lot of care in your thought process - very admirable.

My hat off to you

Edited Thursday at 04:56 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Emerald]

12 minutes ago, aurum said:

I will take that to heart.

I want you to understand though, that's not what is happening from my POV.

When you write something, I DO consider it.

I read it multiple times, I pause, I think about it, I write something back, I edit it, I edit again, I edit it a third time.

It's a slow, deliberate process. 

It's also the case that SD Green arguments feel like remedial math to me. I lived it, chewed on it and moved on. I know the memes very well, including where they go right and where they go wrong. In that sense, I can see how it comes off as dismissive.

I also don't always explain myself. I say things vaguely and expect people to think about them for themselves. But that vagueness can also seem like I'm not engaging with the argument, because I'm not explicitly answering the question.

So that's my feedback.

I understand about the Stage Green arguments feeling like remedial math. They're not sexy at all.

They are useful because that's where society is in the process of heading, and people resist them heavily for this reason as they are upsetting homeostasis.

But if you've gone deeper, they're not the most intellectually stimulating.... as they stick to a layer of systemic thinking that's more political and social than it is about the underlying emotional, psychological, and spiritual dynamics that makes systems run as they do.

They're useful for the current era but a bit boring and under-stimulating for people seeking deeper answers.

At age 23, when I first started learning about Feminine re-integration after I had my experiences of the deep Feminine, I began reading a lot of Feminist literature at first. I figured that would be a good place to look on the topic.

But I found it didn't go deep enough... even though there were a lot of valuable perspectives. So, I had to integrate these perspectives into my framework to untie some of the internalized misogyny. But they were never going to bring me to the deepest levels of Feminine integration.

And that's what led me to seek out deeper perspectives on Feminine integration and integration more generally, where things take on a more mystical quality... and focus on the integration of opposites and the sacred marriage between the Masculine and Feminine. 

My Ayahuasca experiences have also largely been about the embrace of the Feminine.

I have tended to think about Feminism in waves... and the past 10ish years has been 3rd Wave Feminism.

But these other perspectives are some later wave of Feminism that society hasn't gotten to yet. Ultimately, individuals can dive deeply into integrating the Feminine and Masculine within themselves.

But societally and collectively, it makes sense that Blue/Orange and Green are the ways we're thinking about these things. 

It does get frustrating though when you've experienced something so much deeper than what's on offer.

[aurum]

14 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@aurum

Wow - this is a remarkably similar process to my posting style. Thank you for sharing.

I have 2 differences:

 1. Occasionally I just let fly and don't hesitate with a subject if I feel there is creative leeway, this is when stupid Aussie slang finds its way in.

 2. I often walk away for hours at a time, return, and reread my responses for logical accuracy and correctness. During the away time, if the subject is very nuanced and requires diligence and care, I will often go for a run, walk the dog, etc and process. This helps me fit patterns and be able to use metaphor to better illustrate the idea. Also to ensure I have addressed the arguments properly. I often visualise and imagine verbally each argument & counter argument as a spar in my mind - especially when I go for runs. I find this method very useful when others have presented an argument that has changed my mind and I am incorporating it into a new frame to regurgitate back to them. If you get my meaning.

There is a lot of care in your thought process - very admirable.

My hat off to you

You're a real one. That's what good sense-making looks like.

Little bit of Aussie slang is okay too 

[aurum]

29 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It does get frustrating though when you've experienced something so much deeper than what's on offer.

Frustrating, and also somewhat isolating.

You grow beyond what people can understand.

But then you find God