The Purpose Of A Girlfriend Is To Dream Deeper Into The Matrix

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, aurum said:

Why do you think that is?

I have reasoned that it's a hold-over of an adaptation from an earlier phase in human history where these types of inter-male pressures to conform to certain standards of Masculinity served an important function within a small tribe or a village.

Sort of like how there are certain rites of passage where men have to prove their manhood by going through some kind of trial.

For example, there is a particular tribe where the rite of passage for a boy to become a man is to stick his arm in a sheath full of large ants. And the ant bites have a particular type of toxin that creates extreme pain and swelling.

So, to become men, these boys must endure the intense pain of the ant bites.

And this makes sense as an adaptive rite of passage within that context... because if someone's kid lands in a pile of those ants, you're going to need men who are willing stick their hand in the ant pile to fish out the child.

These rites of passage also make sense in these small villages and tribes because the men there live with their mothers in the mother-land for their entire lives. So, they have to find a way to separate from the mother when they must live in proximity to their mother.

And they do this through the rejection of the Feminine... since between their own mother, the mother-land, and Mother Nature... they must find some way to individuate from these layers of the mother.

So, all sorts of social rituals were created to differentiate men from the Feminine.

But with industrial and post-industrial society where danger is rarer and we are living separate from our mothers, the mother-land, and Mother Nature... these inter-Masculine pressures to conform to certain standards of Masculinity don't have much of a practical function anymore.

But the desire for the respected identity of "the man who has stripped himself of Femininity and earned his manhood" is still romanticized and yearned for by many men who want to use it for the sake of securing social status... despite its limited usefulness in the context of the contemporary post-industrial world.

But it's more of an ego/identity thing around proving one's self man enough in our current era... as opposed to something constructive and adaptive towards the outcomes of community building and maintenance like it used to be in more communal eras.

It's kind of like if there was a rich tradition of ditch diggers who were really well-respected by society because ditch-digging was REALLY helpful for survival in tribal and agrarian times... such that the echoes of respect given to those ditch-digging identities echoed into modern-day pop culture.

And men who have never HAD to dig a ditch in their lives would all start clamoring for the "good old days" before digging machines. They may even start the practice of vanity ditch-digging as a life-style choice and to try to be seen as higher status.

And they'd have all sorts of special insults for men who failed to live up to ditch-digger status.

And all these ditch-digger fetishists who treat ditch-digging as a religion would start pressuring each other about who would be the better ditch digger if they were in a past fantasy world where they needed to dig ditches. And they'd start trying to destroy society and progress so that the lost glory of ditch diggers could rise again.

And they'd beat up other guys who didn't prefer ditch-digging... but instead preferred other activities.

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

pressures to conform to certain standards of Masculinity don't have much of a practical function anymore.

could it have a genuine emotional function?

I'm not convinced that masculine rites of passage can be entirely chalked up to neurotic archaic arbitrary convention

maybe the feeling of being a man and not a boy is something that a male needs to distinguish internally to have healthy emotional self esteem.

And this distinction is only made through wrestling with the tangible, material, and physical with real stakes on the line.

I've never heard of a boy becoming a man through passivity, abstraction, and non-consequence.

[aurum]

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

But with industrial and post-industrial society where danger is rarer and we are living separate from our mothers, the mother-land, and Mother Nature... these inter-Masculine pressures to conform to certain standards of Masculinity don't have much of a practical function anymore.

Well we are just going to disagree on this.

It has not been outgrown.

If you can't understand why men need and even want that kind of pressure, you can't really understand masculinity.

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, aurum said:

Well we are just going to disagree on this.

It has not been outgrown.

If you can't understand why men need and even want that kind of pressure, you can't really understand masculinity.

I can understand and relate to wanting challenges and pressures to prove your toughness and increase your stress and pain tolerance.

But putting it through the lens of this conformity to societally prescribed Masculine values seems to lead to less resilient, more socially stunted men who feel fragile in their Masculine identity because they are being expected to conform to a stereotype of Masculinity that's unrealistic and isn't even a communal pro-social stereotype... and often extracts value from community instead of adding to it.

If you can show me any evidence that men trying to conform to the socially prescribed Masculine standards in modern day adds value to society more than it detracts, then I'll reconsider. But for now, I see this drive to create a Masculine hive mind as a net negative for community that prevents male individuation.

Just look around you and you'll see the scourge of Masculine social conformity at play... squelching the real thing, which can only be found in true individuation from the herd. You can even find this on this forum, where the attachment to conforming to Masculine standards is preventing many of these guys from being authentic and developing themselves.

But there are some values that guy friends hold each other to that are valuable. 

When I was an older child and younger teenager, I went through a 5-6 year phase where I would challenge myself to match up to many of the standards put on boys around tolerating pain and remaining stoic because I saw it as a necessary challenge if I wanted to be treated with respect. It was easier to be respected and valued back then if you had a Feminine appearance but had a Masculine personality... as women were seen as superior-looking and the male personality seen as the superior-personality type. So, there was a lot more social respect in coming across for a woman if you were a pretty girl with Masculine preferences.

But despite the protective reasons why I was doing this, it strengthened my resolve in many ways in holding myself to these standards of stoicism.

And when I was about 11 years old, I had this whole phase where (at summer camp) I would challenge other kids to scratch their nails down my arms as hard as they can in order to prove to them and to myself that I wouldn't flinch.

And it was a matter of great pride to show that I could tolerate any amount of physical pain unflinchingly. And it was a very physical summer camp with lots of physical activity. So, I was getting hurt often (accidentally). But each wound gave me an opportunity to show my toughness and stoicism.

Like once, this really mean kid named Calvin and I were playing indoor four square or something like that with other people in the summer camp group.

And we both ended up jumping for the ball and we ended up colliding with each other and falling and sliding for many feet on a hard linoleum floor. And it hurt SO bad... worse than any of the other injuries that I ever sustained there.

And Calvin was crying his mean little eyes out. And I wanted to also. But instead out of pure resolve, I swallowed the pain and pretended I was impervious to what happened... and took the opportunity to rub it in Calvin's face that he was "crying like a little girl when it didn't even hurt".

Then, when I was about 13, my friend Cecilia and I invented this pain-tolerance game that we called "Buddy, Friend, Pal."

And in the game, one person would start and say "Hey Buddy" and punch the other person on the upper arm (hard) but pretending like it's a light and playful punch that you'd give to a friend that you haven't seen in a while.

Then, the other person would answer back and say, "Hey Friend" and punch back on the arm. Then, the original person would say "Hey Pal" and punch back. 

Then, we'd just go back and forth coming up with as many synonyms for friend as possible... like "Chum!" "Dude!" "Bro!" "Partner!"... landing a punch with each new synonym for friend until we ran out and started saying insults.

And Cecilia and I would do this as a pain-tolerance competition... where we had to go along with the ruse that we're just old buddies lightly punching each other in the arm as a gesture of endearment. And the challenge was not to flinch or let on about pain.

And whoever flinched first was the one to lose.

Our upper arms were totally black and blue after a day or two of playing the game. And our parents got upset, so we had to stop playing.

So, I can see the value of guy friends putting these types of pressures on each other... as it helps you push the boundaries of tolerance and face into pain and fear with the help of social pressure.

And if all this Masculinity driver was only towards things like this, it would be fine. But all I see when I look around is a ton of insecure men who feel like they have to mold themselves into being someone else.

So, I think it's time to evolve past the driver towards socially performing an external gender role for the sake of social conformity... and instead to tap into the real Masculinity and real Femininity underneath all these rules.

[Deziree]

11 hours ago, aurum said:

Well we are just going to disagree on this.

It has not been outgrown.

If you can't understand why men need and even want that kind of pressure, you can't really understand masculinity.

I agree quite strongly. It hasn't been outgrown and I don't see why there is a need for it to be outgrown in the first place. Outgrowing it or even bashing the pressure men need seems like a direct suppression of masculinity, like rendheaven said men would need an outlet for healthy masculinity to evolve as it directly correlates with their self esteem too —maybe the feeling of being a man and not a boy is something that a male needs to distinguish internally to have healthy emotional self esteem.

[Emerald]

19 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

could it have a genuine emotional function?

I'm not convinced that masculine rites of passage can be entirely chalked up to neurotic archaic arbitrary convention

maybe the feeling of being a man and not a boy is something that a male needs to distinguish internally to have healthy emotional self esteem.

And this distinction is only made through wrestling with the tangible, material, and physical with real stakes on the line.

I've never heard of a boy becoming a man through passivity, abstraction, and non-consequence.

Rites of passage are necessary in society. And these rites of passage do require struggle and the crossing of thresholds. And there are already plenty of them that most people experience (first kiss, driving, graduating, etc.)

We just don't think of these are rites of passage because they're so mundane and baked into our society... as all rites of passage tend to be.

But some are more specific. I'll share one that I've participated in personally that was a lot of fun.

For example, there's a fun and common rite of passage in the South where the adults take the kids out in the woods to go "snipe hunting."

And snipes aren't real. But the kids don't know that.

And the adults tell you about how scary the snipes are and how they're attracted to the color red.  

And in the middle of the night (prime snipe hunting hours) they lead the kids out into the middle of the thick of the woods where there are no clear paths.

And the adults tell the kids that they're going to go to another area of the woods and scare the snipes their way, leaving the kids totally alone in the middle of the dark woods. And they usually have the kid either having a red shirt in their hands or some other red sack to try to catch the snipes.

Then, the adults start shouting and acting like the snipes have gotten to them... and that the snipes are coming.

And my Uncle Joseph and my 2nd cousin Tim took me, my cousin Tyler (my uncle's son), and my 3rd cousin Colby (Tim's son) out deep into the woods to go camping and snipe hunting.

Colby had already been snipe hunting, so he knew what was going on... and just kept his mouth shut.

But my cousin Tyler and I were led out into the dark woods. And Tyler was made to take off his red shirt and use it as a snipe catching sack.

And I was a bit older... like 12. And Tyler was 9. 

So, I was scared myself but Tyler totally freaked out because he was a little kid.

But his fear put my mind more on consoling him than on the snipe attack (and I was just imagining them as little kiwi birds that live in the bushes anyway). My fear was more about being in the middle of the dark woods and not seeing the spiders that might be crawling on me... as I had already had to brush 3 off of me earlier that day.

But it's little things like this... or even more universal rites of passage that help a kid face with the requisite hardship to strengthen themselves for adulthood.

[aurum]

30 minutes ago, Emerald said:

But putting it through the lens of this conformity to societally prescribed Masculine values seems to lead to less resilient, more socially stunted men who feel fragile in their Masculine identity because they are being expected to conform to a stereotype of Masculinity that's unrealistic and isn't even a communal pro-social stereotype... and often extracts value from community instead of adding to it.

 "Pro-social" and "community" is relative.

If I go to war against an enemy tribe and kill them, that's potentially pro-social and pro their community.

And war is not something of the past. War is very much still with us, even if its face has somewhat evolved.

30 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Just look around you and you'll see the scourge of Masculine social conformity at play... squelching the real thing, which can only be found in true individuation from the herd. You can even find this on this forum, where the attachment to conforming to Masculine standards is preventing many of these guys from being authentic and developing themselves.

I agree that we could be open to more flexibility. Society is complex and there will be people who don't fit the mold.

It's also true that as society evolves, men will probably be able to soften more.

Here's a good example of the kind of stupidity I think you are getting at:

On the whole though, men are not such unique snowflakes you can't predict how they will develop.

You can develop genuine masculinity. And it doesn't happen just by integrating more feminine energy. That is not enough.

Masculinity develops in a very specific way. It has to be forged, like trial by fire. 

30 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And when I was about 11 years old, I had this whole phase where (at summer camp) I would challenge other kids to scratch their nails down my arms as hard as they can in order to prove to them and to myself that I wouldn't flinch.

And it was a matter of great pride to show that I could tolerate any amount of physical pain unflinchingly. And it was a very physical summer camp with lots of physical activity. So, I was getting hurt often (accidentally). But each wound gave me an opportunity to show my toughness and stoicism

Honestly, I'm having a hard time understanding why you felt the need to do this. I don't think a woman has ever earned my respect that way. 

It sounds like you felt the need to compete with men? Or at least be more like men.

Reminds me of this 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

Honestly, I'm having a hard time understanding why you felt the need to do this. I don't think a woman has ever earned my respect that way. 

It sounds like you felt the need to compete with men? Or at least be more like men.

Reminds me of this 

You don't understand it precisely because you haven't grown up as a female child in a society where Masculinity and manhood is seen as superior... and Femininity makes you a target for being disrespected and disempowered... and resented.

You just think about liking Feminine women (sexually and romantically) because that's the extent of your perspective as a man. And you scratch your head because you prefer it when women are Feminine, 'so why wouldn't women just do that if they want respect?'

But most girls and women have gone through a similar phase with internalized misogyny and a desire to shed the female identity for in-group belonging with boys/men (or simply to avoid in-group belonging with the majority of women)... it just takes slightly different forms for different girls/women.

And for a few months, at the age of 11, it was intense levels of stoic masochism and training myself to be okay with feeling pain... to prove to myself that I was different from other girls, who I saw as weak, stupid, and contemptible because of all the misogynistic perspectives that I held at the time that I picked up from pop culture, school, and the people around me. And competing with boys by trying to be tougher was a way to prove to myself that I'm different from other girls. 

I had to find a way to make myself an exception to my own internalized misogyny that I had picked up from the world around me.

That's usually the case for women in the throes of internalized misogyny where they have to find some way to differentiate themselves from other women in order to avoid the chopping block of their own hatred of the Feminine and femaleness.

I did it through leaning heavily into my Masculine side... as did many other girls/women. While others found some other differentiation factor for creating a loophole for themselves to avoid their own internalized misogyny.

Some girls who were more okay with coming across as Feminine would be mean girls who have several close-knit female friends... but decide that she and her female friends are the only loophole women and that all other women are bitches and lesser. These women tend to avoid their own internalized misogyny by scapegoating women who are not in their in-group.

Either way, the desire is there to say, "I'm not in the same category as most other girls. So, even though those other girls deserve the misogyny and disempowerment, I do not because I'm different and better."

And there are many expressions of this "not like other girls" phenomenon... which comes from living in a society that doesn't value femaleness or Femininity in a real human way.

But mine in particular was about differentiating my identity through seeing myself as more Masculine and proving to myself and others that I'm more Masculine... in order to go into cognitive dissonance that my deep hatred of girls/women and Femininity didn't apply to me (when it very much did).

And also to convince myself that society already sees me as different than other girls, so I won't be judged or disempowered as often (which was a huge cope, but I couldn't even bear to acknowledge this).

Ultimately, the deep Feminine can't exist in a society that only values and understands the Masculine. That's why everyone in society (men and women) are heavily suppressing their Feminine sides... as society isn't developed enough for it.

It's like trying to grow a plant that only thrives in acidic soil in basic soil.

Edited Wednesday at 05:53 AM by Emerald

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Deziree said:

It hasn't been outgrown and I don't see why there is a need for it to be outgrown in the first place.

That mostly comes from people with a Cook-Grueter Individualist / Pluralist value-set, where you value authenticity and the deconstruction of oppressive societal roles. 

It has its value as a perspective. You can be too rigid in how you enforce masculinity on men, to the point of absurdity.

Here's an example:

 

[Deziree]

5 minutes ago, aurum said:

That mostly comes from people with a Cook-Grueter Individualist / Pluralist value-set, where you value authenticity and the deconstruction of oppressive societal roles. 

It has its value as a perspective. You can be too rigid in how you enforce masculinity on men, to the point of absurdity.

Here's an example:

 

Thats some absurd extreme stuff I just watched. But basic masculinity, for example, going to the gym, eating well, sports, athletics etc, all that doesn't adhere to such absurdity. There's emotional value to how you grow yourself and the paths are different for men and women. Like you said masculinity needs to be forged, trial by fire. Sadly views on masculinity are quite reductionist in modern society partly because men are never allowed to be vulnerable in a hyper dominant "you're a misogynist if you lay down your male perspective" environment. 

[aurum]

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

You don't understand it precisely because you haven't grown up as a female child in a society where Masculinity and manhood is seen as superior... and Femininity makes you a target for being disrespected and disempowered... and resented.

You just think about liking Feminine women (sexually and romantically) because that's the extent of your perspective as a man. And you scratch your head because you prefer it when women are Feminine, 'so why wouldn't women just do that if they want respect?'

You nailed that one. That's exactly how I think about it.

I understand men being punished for femininity, but I wouldn't think women would be as harshly punished.

Look at something like Mormon society. It's not really "repressed feminine". It's more mutually strict gender roles.

If you were born a Mormon, you would have had an easier time being feminine. Mormonism is like a feminine woman factory machine, to the point that the femininity itself becomes repressive:

This is a good example of what SD Blue is like.

SD Orange is more repressive of femininity I'd say.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

But most girls and women have gone through a similar phase with internalized misogyny and a desire to shed the female identity for in-group belonging with boys/men (or simply to avoid in-group belonging with the majority of women)... it just takes slightly different forms for different girls/women.

I think you really rap on shit many women - myself included - go through. The programming to be 'useful' to justify your existence in society really takes you out of the feminine state of 'being'. All I wanted was to just be in this state in my formative years. I resisted much of my own femininity in an attempt to fit a masculine ideal. You are shown from adults, disagreeable behavior is more likely to get shit done - typically a more masculine trait. There are many examples to be found. Many women also fall into this internalized misogyny trap when they are exposed to the catty nature of teen girls. 'I'm not like them' - femininity into the bin.

I think also women, before they mature out of this, go through a 'girl boss' phase where they really overcompensate with masculine energy. Using force and over-empowerment. I always read it as someone forcing themselves into a role (masculine) that doesn't fit, and as a result, way overcompensating as they aren't familiar with just holding strong themselves. 

It's the difference between a simple toneless 'No' and a 'No' with an aggressive diatribe.

I think men also sense/see this and it really gives them a bad impression of feminism.

[aurum]

8 hours ago, Deziree said:

men are never allowed to be vulnerable in a hyper dominant "you're a misogynist if you lay down your male perspective" environment. 

I wouldn't say it's that extreme. Men can still be masculine mostly just fine, people just want a more balanced masculinity.

It's important to not develop too much of a victim mentality around what struggles your gender goes through.

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, aurum said:

You nailed that one. That's exactly how I think about it.

I understand men being punished for femininity, but I wouldn't think women would be as harshly punished.

Look at something like Mormon society. It's not really "repressed feminine". It's more mutually strict gender roles.

If you were born a Mormon, you would have had an easier time being feminine. Mormonism is like a feminine woman factory machine, to the point that the femininity itself becomes repressive:

This is a good example of what SD Blue is like.

SD Orange is more repressive of femininity I'd say.

Even though both Blue and Orange squelch the Feminine, Blue is actually a lot more repressive to the Feminine than Orange is because of the narrow gender roles and lack of female individuation.

And I've watched a lot of her videos. Her perspectives are interesting. I'm sure she would agree with me.

I have a close friend who's ex-Mormon, and the way the Mormon society treats women just squelches expression and humanity altogether.

It's more like I'd be blocked off from both my Feminine and Masculine side if I were raised Mormon... or in a traditional society, really. I'd have to become 10% of what I currently am.

The more patriarchal an environment is, the more the Feminine is stripped from it... because the deep Feminine is a genuine threat to Patriarchy and the powers that be.

That's why stage Blue societies draw a very tiny circle of acceptable traits for women, where the power of the Deep Feminine is stripped down to a very male-controlled version of motherhood.

That's why we need to develop past all this hyper-Masculine polarization... so that society can integrate the Feminine as opposed to being hostile to it. 

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think you really rap on shit many women - myself included - go through. The programming to be 'useful' to justify your existence in society really takes you out of the feminine state of 'being'. All I wanted was to just be in this state in my formative years. I resisted much of my own femininity in an attempt to fit a masculine ideal. You are shown from adults, disagreeable behavior is more likely to get shit done - typically a more masculine trait. There are many examples to be found. Many women also fall into this internalized misogyny trap when they are exposed to the catty nature of teen girls. 'I'm not like them' - femininity into the bin.

I think also women, before they mature out of this, go through a 'girl boss' phase where they really overcompensate with masculine energy. Using force and over-empowerment. I always read it as someone forcing themselves into a role (masculine) that doesn't fit, and as a result, way overcompensating as they aren't familiar with just holding strong themselves. 

It's the difference between a simple toneless 'No' and a 'No' with an aggressive diatribe.

I think men also sense/see this and it really gives them a bad impression of feminism.

100%

In a nut-shell, the Deep Feminine is about sovereignty on the level of being itself.

A lot of anti-Feminine patriarchal viewpoints are about convincing people that they are not sovereign beings and need to match up to some external authority's standards to be valid and worthy of existence.

And when you live in world that only values and understands the Masculine and we feel like we must "do" to justify our "being", there are no empowered expressions of the Feminine to look to.

So, most women look to male role models... or women who have sought their empowerment through the lens of the Masculine. 

I sense a change in this in recent years.

I made a video about Feminine archetypes with the Feminine counterparts to "Kind, Warrior, Magician, Lover" (I also made a video about he Masculine archetypes), which are "Queen, Mother, Wise Woman, Beloved" to share more about the deep Feminine...

 

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

I have a close friend who's ex-Mormon, and the way the Mormon society treats women just squelches expression and humanity altogether.

It's more like I'd be blocked off from both my Feminine and Masculine side if I were raised Mormon... or in a traditional society, really. I'd have to become 10% of what I currently am.

The more patriarchal an environment is, the more the Feminine is stripped from it... because the deep Feminine is a genuine threat to Patriarchy and the powers that be.

That's why stage Blue societies draw a very tiny circle of acceptable traits for women, where the power of the Deep Feminine is stripped down to a very male-controlled version of motherhood.

That's why we need to develop past all this hyper-Masculine polarization... so that society can integrate the Feminine as opposed to being hostile to it. 

You can't become more yourself just by focusing on repression.

Freedom is always highly constrained.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

You can't become more yourself just by focusing on repression.

Freedom is always highly constrained.

Repression is the most important thing to focus on as it comes to revealing your authenticity to yourself.

Consider a society that is highly shaming and repressive of sexuality. And a person goes unconscious to huge parts of themselves because of these societal standards.

For them, focusing on ridding themselves of mindsets, beliefs, and aversions to sexuality will help them connect more deeply with those elements of themselves and to be more authentic.

The same thing is true about the deep Feminine. Society hates it and lashes out at it every time it's seen.

So, women and men have a very hard time integrating their Feminine side because it is so deeply resisted.

And it cuts us all off from a major source of power and authenticity... and prevents us from maturing as a species.

[aurum]

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Repression is the most important thing to focus on as it comes to revealing your authenticity to yourself.

Not by a long shot.

Focusing on repression is exactly the foolishness of liberalism and SD Green level-logic of authenticity as liberation. And it's exhausting.

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, aurum said:

Not by a long shot.

Focusing on repression is exactly the foolishness of liberalism and SD Green level-logic of authenticity as liberation. And it's exhausting.

You seem to not understand what repression means.

You're thinking of libertine behaviors and expressing things a particular way.

But working through repression is simply making the unconscious conscious and integrating it into your personality.

Here's a video about what integration means...

 

Edited Wednesday at 07:23 PM by Emerald

[aurum]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

You seem to not understand what repression means.

I think I understand it fine.

I'm trying to share with a perspective I've developed over the past five years, coming from profound insights into repression, freedom and authenticity. This is not something I'm just pulling out of my ass. 

If you think I don't understand repression, you're welcome to share where I'm going wrong.

Focusing on repression is fine as a first step, but it's not nearly enough.