Martin Ball says he's not solipsistic

[aurum]

10 hours ago, zurew said:

Yes there is.

What you do is that you want to claim that all dream characters are unreal, but at the same time your dream character is real.

You don’t know what my claim is, because you deny the essentialness of direct experience.

Edited May 30 by aurum

[Loveeee]

47 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Really I can't imagine an apple. You could try, close your eyes and imagine an apple. It's impossible. You can remember the idea of an apple, but not a apple. No apples are going to appear in your mind, try it and you will see. 

 

You didn't remember you just invented it, shape color size etc, along with a whole context, the fact it's a fruit, that you can eat, etc

Also you do realize thought is creative right, thoughts are real you think them into existence, like that apple (well it's actually you as God doing it)

Yes you have finite creativity but that's self-imposed 

 

[zurew]

6 minutes ago, aurum said:

because you deny the essentialness of direct experience.

No, what I deny is that it gets you to solipsism and that you dont need do a significant amount of  inference work to get to solipsism.

Because the moment you admit that you do - you open up yourself to be wrong about it.

 

Your don't "direct experience your way through" (you guys should have created a verb for this by now) to get to solipsism - you start from direct experience, and then intellectualize your way to get there.

[Eskilon]

47 minutes ago, zurew said:

No, what I deny is that it gets you to solipsism and that you dont need do a significant amount of  inference work to get to solipsism.

Solipsism is just a pointer word.

It's how people translate their experience to those who don't know what it is yet. But if one is truly honest to the bone, one will not say nothing when satori/awakening happen. No concept can fully capture what it is, and it will never will. That's why debating about this stuff is useless, you will always walk past each other and those who don't know will fight for coherence, inference and stuff like this.

So don't get hung up on words or stuff like this when it comes to direct knowing. It does not come from inference, inference is a lower form of knowledge when you compare to direct knowing. By the very name of it, inference is just another fancy name for guess, you are guessing, you are incomplete, you don't know fo sure. Consider the possibility of completeness.

Edited May 30 by Eskilon

[Breakingthewall]

35 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

You didn't remember you just invented it, shape color size etc, along with a whole context, the fact it's a fruit, that you can eat, etc

Also you do realize thought is creative right, thoughts are real you think them into existence, like that apple (well it's actually you as God doing it)

Yes you have finite creativity but that's self-imposed 

 

Try it seriously, imagine an apple. Do that exercise. You think that you can imagine an apple, but you can't. You can think that you are imagining an apple, but do you see it in your mind? Can you imagine the green? Sit in silence and try it 

[Nemra]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then how do you know that the other people haven't their own experience?

But why are you projecting your sense of experience onto appearances?

You are basically suggesting that experiences might happen in the body.

Is your experience happening in your body?

No.

So, from that you could understand that claiming that experiences are happening in bodies contradicts your understanding that your body is in your experience.

Edited May 30 by Nemra

[Loveeee]

16 minutes ago, zurew said:

Your don't "direct experience your way through" (you guys should have created a verb for this by now) to get to solipsism - you start from direct experience, and then intellectualize your way to get there.

Most people don't even realize direct experience is real and is even all they know to be real

Now how could there be 2 experiences when an experience while a very real thing isn't a classical finite thing with borders like a bubble 

There's no outside or inside, there's no room

You guys think what, that consciousness somehow has different experiences in parallel ? What does that even mean ? Get real

Consciousness must know itself totally because it's one, and since you're conscious this is it 

[aurum]

44 minutes ago, zurew said:

No, what I deny is that it gets you to solipsism

How would you know?

Unless you’ve had direct experience, you don’t even understand what our words are pointing towards. You are like a virgin debating what sex is like. Except it’s way worse, because God is a 1000x more of a mindfuck than sex.

[Loveeee]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Can you imagine the green? 

Of course I can do you have aphantasia or something 

But of course like I said your imagination is limited by design 

You as God are imagining a human imagining a fuzzy apple  

[Breakingthewall]

14 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

f course I can do you have aphantasia or something 

Really? I can't imagine anything, if I try I see just black. It's like I know what green is but I can't see it in my mind, same than anything else. For example if I try to imagine the face of someone that I know it's like I imagine the presence of that person, but nothing visual, just black. Are you sure that you can made a visual image just wanting to see it? 

 

28 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Is your experience happening in your body?

The body is the source of the experience. The body is an structure that make this experience in this frequency. You could do a simple experience, remove your eyes with a knife, then you will realize that your experience is now different, it's in another frequency 

But this doesn't mean that I think that the body is something "material", or limited, the body is interdimensional, it's a node of relations that is happening unlimited, branched to infinity. 

Then if I see other bodies it's obvious to think that they are other dimensions of existence 

[zurew]

50 minutes ago, aurum said:

How would you know?

By the lack of ability to respond to the challenges that are brought up, while also admitting that you can be wrong about the interpretation that you construct from the awakening that you have, while also saying that you cant be wrong about it because its unfalsifiable.

And by the epistemology that you put forth. Your epistemology includes more than just direct experience.

You want to hold on to "it requires interpretive work" while also saying that "its not something that you can be wrong about"

50 minutes ago, aurum said:

You are like a virgin debating what sex is like.

To be clear, you are not even open for a debate, because you think you cant be wrong about it, so you are here to teach and preach.

Edited May 30 by zurew

[Loveeee]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Are you sure that you can made a visual image just wanting to see it? 

Definitely, well if you can't summon images just imagine sound or any thought really

What's going on "in your mind" is actually going on, as real as it gets 

 

[Nemra]

33 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The body is the source of the experience. The body is an structure that make this experience in this frequency. You could do a simple experience, remove your eyes with a knife, then you will realize that your experience is now different, it's in another frequency 

No, your body isn't the ultimate source.

Your body just has control over your experience.

If I cut my fingers, I would have difficulty grabbing stuff.

If I remove my eyes, my body wouldn't even appear. I wouldn't even see my body.

To be more precise, you should have said that your sense organs are what allow you to have experiences.

But you are using that to say that experiences happen in bodies. Which is not the case.

33 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

But this doesn't mean that I think that the body is something "material", or limited, the body is interdimensional, it's a node of relations that is happening unlimited, branched to infinity. 

What are you even saying?

You were just saying that people could be having inner experiences, which assumes that experiences are happening in the body.

33 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then if I see other bodies it's obvious to think that they are other dimensions of existence 

The problem isn't that there couldn't be other dimensions for you to experience.

For example, someone is sick.

In a sense, you could say sickness exists.

But there is a difference between someone being sick and you being sick.

You cannot tell what sickness is until you get it.

If someone is sick, you might feel bad for them because you project those feelings you had onto them when you were sick.

Edited May 30 by Nemra

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Definitely, well if you can't summon images just imagine sound or any thought really

What's going on "in your mind" is actually going on, as real as it gets 

 

You can evoke images or sounds, but not see or hear them. You evoke them up because you've seen or heard them before; otherwise, it would be impossible

4 minutes ago, Nemra said:

The problem isn't that there couldn't be other dimensions.

Why not? Limitless means that there are

[Someone here]

God told me solipsism is false ..and all solipsists go to hell when they die .

[Nemra]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why not? Limitless means that there are

I didn't say other dimensions aren't possible.

But we are specifically talking about people being conscious agents.

Either you say they are conscious agents or not, because it's about people in your experience experiencing stuff and not about you experiencing other dimensions.

Edited May 30 by Nemra

[Breakingthewall]

49 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Either you say they are conscious agents or not, because it's about people in your experience experiencing stuff and not about you experiencing other dimensions.

Inside is outside and outside is inside. That's infinity. Infinite dimensions in all directions. 

Edited May 30 by Breakingthewall

[Nemra]

22 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Inside is outside and outside is inside. That's infinity. Infinite dimensions in all directions. 

Please clarify how that was relevant to what I was saying.

[aurum]

1 hour ago, zurew said:

By the lack of ability to respond to the challenges that are brought up, while also admitting that you can be wrong about the interpretation that you construct from the awakening that you have, while also saying that you cant be wrong about it because its unfalsifiable.

And by the epistemology that you put forth. Your epistemology includes more than just direct experience.

You want to hold on to "it requires interpretive work" while also saying that "its not something that you can be wrong about"

This is not a contradiction.

Yes, God is Absolute Truth and therefore unfalsifiable.

And yes, self-deception still matters. Trauma still matters. State of your mind still matters. Surrendering your ego still matters. Good sense-making and contemplation still matters.

You have capacity to deny truth all you want. Why? 

Because God is Absolute, and therefore there is no one else to stop God from self-denial. Just in the same way that there is no one else to verify God.

Only you.

And when you do, you’ll understand why we talk about solipsism.

[Breakingthewall]

20 minutes ago, Nemra said:

Please clarify how that was relevant to what I was saying.

You said that only you can be concious because people in your experience are just experience, but in infinity there is no center. Then the experienced experiences