Humanity Has Failed

[Breakingthewall]

It's not that Israel is fighting against some terrorist, they are fighting against the Palestinian state, democratically elected. It's not an official state but they are. Then, it's a war. In war you fight until the enemy surrender, same than Hiroshima 

[hundreth]

15 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The Palestinians should have accepted the situation, looked ahead, and competed with the Jews by collaborating with them, but they prefer to remain in the past, in hatred and revenge. So what do they want? Hugs? Violence is useless, they are weaker, they must start using their brains, study, be alive, have a positive identity, not just hate.

Of course, there are always excuses for hate. but they are just excuses. Life is first. 

That is the general sentiment most Israelis have. There are always opportunities to improve your circumstances and focus on a good life. That's what Israelis do. It is very obvious to them how they would handle the same situations vastly differently. And it feels like they would rather hurt us than help themselves.

[Raze]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

It's not that Israel is fighting against some terrorist, they are fighting against the Palestinian state, democratically elected. It's not an official state but they are. Then, it's a war. In war you fight until the enemy surrender, same than Hiroshima 

Israel controlled Gaza’s airspace, everything that officially enters its borders, and regularly killed Gazans inside of it. It’s not a “state”, it’s a massive ghetto.

Israel isn’t fighting until Hamas surrenders, they already rejected Hamas giving up power to the PA and openly say the goal is to make Gaza unlivable and ethnically cleanse the population. 

Israel itself doesn’t consider it a state and makes it official state policy to stop a Palestinian state.

[Raze]

16 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It could happen when the Muslims accept Israel as a country and the Palestinian start fighting for their rights in a positive way, without violence. If the Muslims persist in gate and negativity, there are two solution, the end of Israel or show them that they can't be expelled because they are strong enough. If Hamas put kids like shields, show them that this is useless . If not what? 

The Muslim countries offered full normalization with Israel through the Arab peace initiative. Israel rejected it.

Palestinains attempted many peaceful protests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Day

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests

The PA controls the West Bank and gave up armed resistance to Israel years ago, yet Israel just expanded settlements and allow settlers to regularly beat and kill Palestinians.

26 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The Palestinians should have accepted the situation, looked ahead, and competed with the Jews by collaborating with them, but they prefer to remain in the past, in hatred and revenge. So what do they want? Hugs? Violence is useless, they are weaker, they must start using their brains, study, be alive, have a positive identity, not just hate.

Of course, there are always excuses for hate. but they are just excuses. Life is first. 

If someone kicks you out of your home and occupies you without rights while regularly torturing and arresting your family members and purposefully crushing your economy, and they do this for decades and publicly say they will do it forever, why exactly would you work with them?

You are acting as though israel was doing nothing this entire time and Palestinians out of nowhere attack for no reason.

By September, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank since the first intifada. That was months before oct 7.

In Gaza Israel’s blockade had gotten to the point where they had nearly half unemployment, limited access to clean water, and extremely high rates of depression and PTSD.

Edited May 30 by Raze

[hundreth]

19 minutes ago, Raze said:

The Muslim countries offered full normalization with Israel through the Arab peace initiative. Israel rejected it.

I believe the main hang up there were allusions to something like the right of return which is a non starter to negotiations with Israel. There were likewise many agreements the Palestinians rejected for other reasons. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Peace_Initiative

There were efforts by some Israelis to counter but I don't think they went anywhere either unfortunately.

Edited May 30 by hundreth

[Breakingthewall]

29 minutes ago, Raze said:

Israel controlled Gaza’s airspace, everything that officially enters its borders, and regularly killed Gazans inside of it. It’s not a “state”, it’s a massive ghetto.

Israel isn’t fighting until Hamas surrenders, they already rejected Hamas giving up power to the PA and openly say the goal is to make Gaza unlivable and ethnically cleanse the population. 

Israel itself doesn’t consider it a state and makes it official state policy to stop a Palestinian state.

Then, what Israel should do with a country that has as main sign of identity hating them and desire they dissapearing?

If you answer: it's not a country because it's not recognized , etc...it's a country, an identity. The government is Hamas, recognized or not. 

Edited May 30 by Breakingthewall

[zazen]

6 hours ago, hundreth said:

I can't really speak for Israelis but in my view trying to rationally understand Trump's actions are an exercise in futility. He has the emotional stability of a toddler and his inclinations change like the wind. Add to that all the warring sub factions within his administration vying for his attention and influence. 

All you can really say is that he's less concerned with upsetting Bibi than Biden was. 

If something benefits Trump in the short term, be it monetarily or a quick ego boost for bringing back an American - he will pursue. He does not actually have a cohesive vision or plan. 

True - he’s there for the lights and money, but remains a vessel nonetheless. 

News from just few hours ago to show quite nicely the two factions at play here.

Saudi representing the new vision for the region that Blackrock and “new money” are on board with (Financial elite) vs Israel representing the old neocon paradigm (Military industrial complex) getting in the way of it.

This is the tug of war taking place. Many headlines will come out in the next weeks - keep in mind this frame work of players and interests.

Angry muslims and liberals rage at the gulf saying they betrayed the Palestinians. Meanwhile:

 

They can understand the Israeli occupation of Palestinians but can’t extend that concept further to see how the gulf nations are soft occupied by a security architecture the US dominates.

They can’t understand the level of survivalist chess being played. All they can fathom is who shouts loudest at the karaoke as the one who will make things change.

As Israel’s economy gets squeezed -  the Gulf along side Kushners fund can step in to economically inject some life into the economy. This will be economic leverage over Israel for which concessions can be extracted.

The longer time goes on the more distressed the assets become - ripe for negotiations. Systemic entrenchment = leverage = concessions = Palestinian self determination.

Edited May 30 by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

31 minutes ago, Raze said:

If someone kicks you out of your home and occupies you without rights while regularly torturing and arresting your family members and purposefully crushing your economy, and they do this for decades and publicly say they will do it forever, why exactly would you work with them?

The first war to destroy Israel was started by a coalition of Arab countries. Many years have passed since then, and there have been more wars and conflicts. The problem for the Arabs is that they have lost the wars. If they had won, everything would be wonderful and the Israelis would have been expelled. But since they lost, they complain a lot, hate a lot, and do nothing more.

[Raze]

13 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Then, what Israel should do with a country that has as main sign of identity hating them and desire they dissapearing?

If you answer: it's not a country because it's not recognized , etc...it's a country, an identity. The government is Hamas, recognized or not. 

Ideally they’d end their racial supremacist states and grant Palestinians equal rights as Israeli citizens. That being said they won’t do that, and international law dictates you can’t occupy millions of people without rights based on race as that is apartheid, so they should agree to a two state solution, but they block it at the UN. The PA acknowledged Israel and gave up trying to destroy it, even Hamas offered a ten year ceasefire in exchange for a state.

A better question is, what should Palestinians do about a colony that’s own ruling parties charter says they are against a Palestinian state and thus any form of Palestinian self determination, and are actively destroying Palestine through illegal settlement growth, detaining thousands, and regular mass murder, and now even ethnic cleansing and forced starvation. 

Edited May 30 by Raze

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The first war to destroy Israel was started by a coalition of Arab countries. Many years have passed since then, and there have been more wars and conflicts. The problem for the Arabs is that they have lost the wars. If they had won, everything would be wonderful and the Israelis would have been expelled. But since they lost, they complain a lot, hate a lot, and do nothing more.

No arab state has gone to war with Israel in decades. Israel has been fighting small rebel groups formed among populations it subjugates or subjugated at one point. 

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

Ideally they’d end their racial supremacist states and grant Palestinians equal rights as Israeli citizens.

This is a political suicide to Israel as a liberal state.

Two State Solution is the right one.

Edited May 30 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

On 30.5.2025 at 0:46 AM, zazen said:

is ideological support especially by Christian Zionists / evangelicals.

This is not true. 

The ideological support is bipartisan and include shared liberal values between the Democrat and Center-Left sectors in US and Israel respectively, not any less than the Right wing parallelization.

Edited May 30 by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, Raze said:

better question is, what should Palestinians do about a colony that’s own ruling parties charter says they are against a Palestinian

Become smart, organized, civilized, scientist, grow the economy, open their mind, be engineers, do art, movies, be happy, love each others, dance and live.

14 minutes ago, Raze said:

Ideally they’d end their racial supremacist states and grant Palestinians equal rights as Israeli citizens. That being said they won’t do that, and international law dictates you can’t occupy millions of people without rights based on race as that is apartheid, so they

So they should give a state to people who has a main sign of identity hating them? Would you do that? Why? Suicide?

[Breakingthewall]

19 minutes ago, Raze said:

No arab state has gone to war with Israel in decades. Israel has been fighting small rebel groups formed among populations it subjugates or subjugated at one point

No, but they did and since then the Muslims in general has a indubitable premise that is: Israel must be dissapear and we hate them. Then, why they complain? If they were stronger they would kill them, then they should have a good sportsmanship and congratulate them for winning and stop crying so much.

Edited May 30 by Breakingthewall

[zazen]

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

This is not true. 

The ideological support is bipartisan and include shared liberal values between the Democrat and Center-Left sectors in US and Israel respectively, not any less than the Right wing parallelization.

That’s already included in the 3rd faction of the ideological religious complex brother.

The two mythic frameworks are the secular (non-religious)  kind: American exceptionalism, which is the civilizational mythos of liberalism.

The other is the religous kind : Christian evangelical, which is a divine mythos with an end times prophecy.

I should have clarified that better.

On 29/05/2025 at 10:46 PM, zazen said:

Besides just geostrategic or financial gain, there is ideological support especially by Christian Zionists / evangelicals. That is where the contradictions and complexity emerge. Because their are different factions of elites with different interests that are diverging today more than they are aligning.

- The Financial Industrial Complex (FIC) wants regional stability to attract capital and build markets.

- The Military-Industrial Complex (MIC) wants managed conflict to sustain defense spending.

- The Ideological-Religious Complex (IRC) wants prophecy - both secular (American exceptionalism) and religious (Evangelical end times).

The first two factions want profit, the last wants prophecy - divine and civilizational. The military and ideaological faction usually overlap - why not have profits and prophecy? They are otherwise known as neocons.

The financial elite faction are mostly indifferent to ideology as they chase profits. As Western returns on capital shrink, they seek higher returns through expansion into new growth markets ie the Global South - Middle East. But to tap new markets, they need something the other factions often undermine which is stability. They have still profited off of instability, but perhaps peace may now promise more than chaos.

Through that lens it makes sense as to what’s going on. Otherwise many Zionists are asking how could Trump betray them by talking with Iran? This is why the negotiations currently taking place between Iran-US-Israel-Saudi. Trump seems to be representing the financial elite faction - Bibi represents the neocon faction, It’s basically old money (Neocons) vs new money (Blackrock).

That’s why: Larry Fink from Blackrock was alongside Trump in Saudi, Saudi and Blackrock have been working with each other for a while, the UAE and Kushners firm are aligned. When MBS of Saudi says Middle East will be the new Europe - those aren’t just baseless statements.

It kind of all seems to make slightly more sense when seen from this lens, with all the players and incentives involved. Trump of course sides with the most powerful and the highest bidder which is the financial elite, who have eclipsed the military elite in power and leverage since some time now.

 

 

Edited May 30 by zazen

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Become smart, organized, civilized, scientist, grow the economy, open their mind, be engineers, do art, movies, be happy, love each others, dance and live.

Wikileaks leaked emails revealing Israeli officials admit they keep Gazas economy on the brink of collapse

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna40926651

They can’t “grow the economy” when it is blockaded to stop that from happening, Gaza has a high literacy rate and high amount of college graduates but they usually end up unemployed with no ability to change it. Israel even limits how much they can fish and regularly kills Gazan fishermen.

In the West Bank israel uses various tactics to make life there nearly unlivable. Palestinians are forced to wait hours outside checkpoints, there are plenty of documented cases of pregnant women being forced to give birth on the road because they won’t open them.

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

So they should give a state to people who has a main sign of identity hating them? Would you do that? Why? Suicide?

 

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

This is a political suicide to Israel as a liberal state.

Two State Solution is the right one.

It’s only suicide of Israel as a Jewish supremacist state that’s based on subjugation of Palestinians.

Palestinains hate Israel’s subjugation of them, yes. The same way south africans hated whites who oppressed them during apartheid. In the case of apartheid whites were only 10% of the population, while Israelis are 50%, so they actually had more to fear. But it seems Israel’s internal racism is much stronger than apartheid and they are far less willing to give up their dream of an ethnosupremacist project built on someone else’s home. 

If you really want a two state solution will you and the IDF go and forcibly remove the hundreds of thousands of settlers who were specifically placed there to stop a two state solution? Let me guess, no.

57 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

No, but they did and since then the Muslims in general has a indubitable premise that is: Israel must be dissapear and we hate them. Then, why they complain? If they were stronger they would kill them, then they should have a good sportsmanship and congratulate them for winning and stop crying so much.

There’s almost no point in talking to you because everything is in one ear and out the other.

”why complain”. You haven’t disputed a single point I made, those would be the reasons people complain. If a country was keeping millions of Jews occupied without human rights, regularly arresting them without trial, allowing Muslims to demolish their homes and move in, regularly killing them, would you say “why are Jews complaining, just be good sports and let it happen”? No. But you have some bizarre dehumanizations of Muslims that not only do you think they are all violent and unreasonable but somehow they should also accept being endlessly brutalized in unreasonable circumstances. 

The former Israeli prime minister and the former head of Israel’s own internal security both admitted if they were Palestinian they’d take up arms and fight israel because of what they go through.

 

 

It’s quite silly even the leaders involved with designing the actual situation of Palestinians can see this but you can’t. Sometimes I feel like people like you know very well but act obtuse for some reason.

And again, the Muslim states have offered israel full normalization if it just gives up the occupation of remaining Palestinian territories, the last time a actual Muslim state (not a gurella force) attacked Israel was decades ago.

Their position is in line with international law and agreed upon by nearly every other country in the world, feel free to look up the UN vote for two states.

Edited May 30 by Raze

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Raze said:

Wikileaks leaked emails revealing Israeli officials admit they keep Gazas economy on the brink of collapse

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna40926651

They can’t “grow the economy” when it is blockaded to stop that from happening, Gaza has a high literacy rate and high amount of college graduates but they usually end up unemployed with no ability to change it.

In the West Bank israel uses various tactics to make life there nearly unlivable. Palestinians are forced to wait hours outside checkpoints, there are plenty of documented cases of pregnant women being forced to give birth on the road because they won’t open them.

After 100 years living with a people who have made hatred their identity has created an increasingly extremist power structure in Israel. Of course, Israel is guilty of many crimes, but if the Palestinian people's premise is hatred of Israel, then Israel will inevitably drift toward extremism.

You could say: the Palestinian have reasons to hate. Then what? They should start to open the hands, then we will see if Israel is a demon by itself or because the Arabs didn't give a choice . If they persist in hate, they would get destruction. Maybe they don't care because their identity is hate. Ok then. 

Edited May 30 by Breakingthewall

[Raze]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

After 100 years living with a people who have made hatred their identity has created an increasingly extremist power structure in Israel. Of course, Israel is guilty of many crimes, but if the Palestinian people's premise is hatred of Israel, then Israel will inevitably drift toward extremism.

You could say: the Palestinian have reasons to hate. Then what? They should start to open the hands, then we will see if Israel is a demon by itself or because the Arabs didn't give a choice 

It wasn’t 100 years, prior to Zionism Palestinians lived peacefully with Christian and Jewish minorities. They began trying to resist Zionist occupiers who entered their and started forming militias and terror groups.

Their premise being hatred of Israel is irrelevant to the bigger issue of Israel’s *actions* being the continued destruction of Palestine, which is what actually matters and is happening.

Ideally you would stop giving a group reasons to hate you instead of expecting continued torture of them will somehow solve the issue. ITs really no different than people who said ending Jim Crow can’t happen because black people resent white people, though (israel is far more brutal than Jim Crow). Yes, if you torment people they will hate you, that doesn’t give you license to torment them endlessly.

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Raze said:

And again, the Muslim states have offered israel full normalization if it just gives up the occupation of remaining Palestinian

Where is that project of agreement?

[Raze]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

Where is that project of agreement?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative