Took Leo's Corruption Exercise

[The Caretaker]

I refer to this post: https://www.actualized.org/insights/actualized-quotes-183

 

I meditated for 20 minutes and contemplated this topic for 20 minutes, and found the following:

1) I don't feel any guilt or remorse for the corruption I create without actually seeing how negatively it impacts the other side.

A simple example would be meat consumption. Until I see a cow crying, I don't actually care how I get my sausages. And tbh, with humans it's not much different. Unless I feel like I directly made somebody suffer, I don't care.

 

2) I felt disappointed in myself.

I knew that I was not a saint, and I had made bad decisions in the past, but I felt numb even when contemplating the worst things I had done to another person. Every corrupt decision I ever made makes "complete sense" in retrospect. But I least I hoped that I would care a little more.

 

3) You are still punished for evil by the evil itself.

I don't believe you can't outsmart yourself. To give a few examples of what I mean:

If you are a guy who manipulates women for sex, you cut yourself off from the privilege of getting into a healthy relationship. If you try to manipulate people for your own benefit, you get trust issues. If you do some shady moves like stalking, you might be punished by your own anger when the person you stalk is doing much better than you would hope. If you steal, you create a paranoia that somebody else could steal from you unpunished. And so on. You got the idea.

 

My only sticking point is the idea that - if you are not self-aware of any of that, do you even feel bad? How well is somebody like Trump actually sleeping? I mean, corruption helps you survive much better, but how much can you thrive by being corrupt? And if the corruption is "so good", why do we rise to higher consciousness with every generation?

 

So, in the end, I am a little disappointed in how little I care about the suffering I don't see, even if I cause it. A little hopeful for all the times that I go against my bad judgment and choose the right thing. Sadly, I am not aware if my "spirit" is speaking right now or if I am that good at mental gymnastics.

[theleelajoker]

Agree with the "can't outsmart yourself" -it's just hurting ourselves. 

Also agree with the "don't feel remorse without seeing the impact". Take me to a butchery and I likely will eat less meat. Until then...little effect from just knowing "animals are butchered" instead of experiencing. 

Re your sticking point...good question. I think the answer lies a bit in the dark for everyone not really close to very corrupt people. Public images might be very different then private life. Lots of big guys in the third Reich for instance were allegedly addicted to different drugs. So I think you can numb yourself by distancing, by substances and by not being present (distraction is so easily available). 

Especially the last point - being present - is IMO crucial if you want to feel more. If you're disappointed and want to care more I recommend meditation retreats. Would be surprised if you sit a few Vipassana courses and still say that you don't care

[AtmanIsBrahman]

11 hours ago, The Caretaker said:

How well is somebody like Trump actually sleeping?

This is the thing about corruption, you don't know that you're corrupt- otherwise you wouldn't be. Trump probably sleeps well, and if he doesn't it isn't because he's morally judging himself but because he's concerned about how to run the country and how to deal with his opponents.

11 hours ago, The Caretaker said:

3) You are still punished for evil by the evil itself.

I'm open to the idea but not necessarily in a causal way. It's easy to think of examples where you do "evil" and completely get away with it. If something is truly good, there's no reason to do it- you just do it because it's good. So I don't think you're punished for evil in that way. Watch this if you haven't already:

 

[integral]

I exist therefore I am corrupt

[theleelajoker]

4 hours ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

This is the thing about corruption, you don't know that you're corrupt- otherwise you wouldn't be. Trump probably sleeps well, and if he doesn't it isn't because he's morally judging himself but because he's concerned about how to run the country and how to deal with his opponents.

I'm open to the idea but not necessarily in a causal way. It's easy to think of examples where you do "evil" and completely get away with it. If something is truly good, there's no reason to do it- you just do it because it's good. So I don't think you're punished for evil in that way. Watch this if you haven't already:

 

Are you talking from personal experience? 

Because I am. I know eg a person that came to money and power by using some methods that were not "morally correct" and he does suffer from this. He tries to pushes it down, he's highly functional, and in the core he's a good guy. But when we have deep talks it is very clear that he knows what he did is not "right" and this weighs him down and kills joy and happiness.

Getting away with it in the external world is one thing - he was not "punished" but he punishes himself. There is another example that comes to mind...God maybe forgives but in my experience the dharma, the law of cause and effects does not.

Generally I believe in this forum too often there is talk about people and things we do not directly experience. So all we do is speculate. 

@AtmanIsBrahman saw your username and thought of this song 

https://open.spotify.com/track/2Lc8Joh6Ma2zohr0O3sJ5w?si=NBLvv8rMQu6K4UEBSPbOGg

 

[The Caretaker]

18 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Agree with the "can't outsmart yourself" -it's just hurting ourselves. 

Also agree with the "don't feel remorse without seeing the impact". Take me to a butchery and I likely will eat less meat. Until then...little effect from just knowing "animals are butchered" instead of experiencing. 

Re your sticking point...good question. I think the answer lies a bit in the dark for everyone not really close to very corrupt people. Public images might be very different then private life. Lots of big guys in the third Reich for instance were allegedly addicted to different drugs. So I think you can numb yourself by distancing, by substances and by not being present (distraction is so easily available). 

Especially the last point - being present - is IMO crucial if you want to feel more. If you're disappointed and want to care more I recommend meditation retreats. Would be surprised if you sit a few Vipassana courses and still say that you don't care

The most I ever did was a few 3-day solo retreats, and I think they helped a lot. And Idk, it can cut both ways, making you less susestable to human suffering in general.

 

14 hours ago, AtmanIsBrahman said:

This is the thing about corruption, you don't know that you're corrupt- otherwise you wouldn't be. Trump probably sleeps well, and if he doesn't it isn't because he's morally judging himself but because he's concerned about how to run the country and how to deal with his opponents.

I'm open to the idea but not necessarily in a causal way. It's easy to think of examples where you do "evil" and completely get away with it. If something is truly good, there's no reason to do it- you just do it because it's good. So I don't think you're punished for evil in that way. Watch this if you haven't already:

 

Yo, somehow I missed this episode. Maybe I just forgot because it was not relevant when I watched it.

 

14 hours ago, integral said:

I exist therefore I am corrupt

I corrupt, therefore I am.

[Breakingthewall]

I used to do a lot of shit, and I had a vibration that was, let's say, inharmonious, out of tune, unpleasant, what they call suffering. Then you think: This suffering is a real pain, I might as well be dead, let's see how I can eliminate it. Then you start eliminating, one by one, all the shit that's causing you to have that unpleasant vibration, until not a single one remains.

What Leo says about comparing the image you have of yourself with the things you do shows that he's quite ego-centered. If you weren't ego-centered, you'd say: Look how equalized you are. Are you? Good. Not? Bad. Equalize yourself. How? By doing what's necessary.

[cetus]

People sometimes ask, "what is the meaning of life? I respond, what is the meaning of 4th grade? -to graduate to 5th.

Edited Sunday at 10:33 PM by cetus

[theleelajoker]

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I used to do a lot of shit, and I had a vibration that was, let's say, inharmonious, out of tune, unpleasant, what they call suffering. Then you think: This suffering is a real pain, I might as well be dead, let's see how I can eliminate it. Then you start eliminating, one by one, all the shit that's causing you to have that unpleasant vibration, until not a single one remains.

What Leo says about comparing the image you have of yourself with the things you do shows that he's quite ego-centered. If you weren't ego-centered, you'd say: Look how equalized you are. Are you? Good. Not? Bad. Equalize yourself. How? By doing what's necessary.

Yeah, you can try to run away from what's necessary. But in my experience, you can't run away successfully

Edited Monday at 04:27 AM by theleelajoker

[theleelajoker]

On 18.5.2025 at 7:07 PM, The Caretaker said:

And Idk, it can cut both ways, making you less susestable to human suffering in general 

This was in my mind a while. I think you have a point. Probably the spectrum is increased in both directions. More sensitive less sensitive at the same time 

[Leo Gura]

On 5/17/2025 at 7:28 PM, integral said:

I exist therefore I am corrupt