Just some thoughts about the egoic structure, control and freedom

[PurpleTree]

So seemingly at some point in early childhood the egoic structure seem to take a more dense form.

Especially with some traumatic experiences. For example someone says your laugh is ugly then you try to hide or change the way you laugh or just laugh less as it seems more safe. Or you get the impression or being taught that you need to suppress your anger or be less sensitive. So as a safety mechanism, to fit in etc. you try to change and control yourself basically through beliefs.

Then other things get built on top self protection mechanism and so on.

So then you get more constricted, contracted, controlled, depressed.

The idea of time itself also deepens and contracts more.

The more traumatic experiences the more the egoic structure seemingly becomes a control freak for self and others.

At some point the protection mechanisms might cause too much suffering so maybe you try to ease up with drugs or alcohol or something.

Anyway at some point there might be a glimpse that it doesn’t necessarily need to be this way. So then you might try to untangle yourself from beliefs and constrictions and control. Which is quite complex. Especially if some trauma is involved.

Ego is basically control through thoughts and beliefs.

So the amount of control the ego can let go of control is the amount of freedom to be had. But it’s letting go into the unknown. Which the ego basically can’t.

So basically all comes down to grace or luck whether and how much these structures soften.

The end.

[Sugarcoat]

I remember from childhood when the ego formed. And how it was scary to me. I felt isolated and distant from the world, like scarily separate, and I needed outside stimulation to feel grounded and to distract myself from this inner darkness. I remember I used to have this anxiety at night time, it was always at night time, but during the day when there’s more external stimulation I felt better. 
 

You remind me a little about myself lol, this way you have of wanting to express your thoughts 

Edited Tuesday at 05:23 PM by Sugarcoat

[Schizophonia]

Psychedelics and psychoanalysis helped me to be less neurotic.

Edited Tuesday at 05:38 PM by Schizophonia

[PurpleTree]

17 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I remember from childhood when the ego formed. And how it was scary to me. I felt isolated and distant from the world, like scarily separate, and I needed outside stimulation to feel grounded and to distract myself from this inner darkness. I remember I used to have this anxiety at night time, it was always at night time, but during the day when there’s more external stimulation I felt better.  

Yea i also felt isolated, distant quite early on. I think in the story my egoic structure became quite dense quite early on. Because i remember when i was like 8,9,10 adults telling me i act so grown up. Also early on felt intense shame.

7 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Psychedelics helped me to be less neurotic. 

Psychedelics can certainly help to loosen beliefs, give a different viewpoint, inspire etc. But they’re also a bit of a slippery slope.

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

Yea i also felt isolated, distant quite early on. I think in the story my egoic structure became quite dense quite early on. Because i remember when i was like 8,9,10 adults telling me i act so grown up. Also early on felt intense shame.

Ditto, because of very very bad experiences here and there.

I was very quickly on overvoltage, as at 11 I was already very interested in politics, I was very cynical, schizoid...

Quote

Psychedelics can certainly help to loosen beliefs, give a different viewpoint, inspire etc. But they’re also a bit of a slippery slope.

Of course.

Edited Tuesday at 07:09 PM by Schizophonia

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

Yea i also felt isolated, distant quite early on. I think in the story my egoic structure became quite dense quite early on. Because i remember when i was like 8,9,10 adults telling me i act so grown up. Also early on felt intense shame.

Same

[Princess Arabia]

4 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

Ego is basically control through thoughts and beliefs.

The ego isn't controlled by these, this is what ego primarily is. There is no ego apart from thoughts and beliefs. No stories, thoughts, beliefs, ideas, attachments, etc, no ego.

[Princess Arabia]

4 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

So the amount of control the ego can let go of control is the amount of freedom to be had.

Freedom is not a thing to be had. Freedom is also the constraints of the ego. Freedom cannot be attained through some practice or letting go of. Freedom is also entrapment and slavery. Freedom is not some human bullshit need or wants. Freedom is free. It's not limited to human egoic desires of wanting to be free of it's own constraints; that is also freedom.

[PurpleTree]

11 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

The ego isn't controlled by these, this is what ego primarily is. There is no ego apart from thoughts and beliefs. No stories, thoughts, beliefs, ideas, attachments, etc, no ego.

That’s what i said.

[PurpleTree]

17 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Freedom is not a thing to be had. Freedom is also the constraints of the ego. Freedom cannot be attained through some practice or letting go of. Freedom is also entrapment and slavery. Freedom is not some human bullshit need or wants. Freedom is free. It's not limited to human egoic desires of wanting to be free of it's own constraints; that is also freedom.

Yea but in the story it seemingly feels like there can be a separate constricted self. Like the ego seemingly trying to control freedom because it deems it too dangerous. And underlying this is freedom. Which can be felt more once the ego loosens ( in the story) But in the absolute everything is freedom also the egoic structure.

[theleelajoker]

Nice thread. 

Unlike you guys, I can't remember how and when my ego structure evolved and became so dense. Some fragments, but most is probably still in my subconscious.

But I fully resonate with the mechanisms and examples you describe. 

• Gaining control by learning certain behavior, creating stories and believes building self protection structures on top 
• Easing tensions with substances (for me, lots of weed)
• Complexity with trauma. I could understand many things, mechanisms clearly but also couldn't access it. Blockages that frustrated me for years and nothing I could do on a conscious level, no matter how hard I tried. Hated myself for that (not anymore)
• Psychedelics - yeah very slippery slope. Without my first LSD experience, I think would never started this journey towards freedom. But IMO they are less the solution and more a catalyzer, jump starter 
• Grace and luck...oh yes. I was very fortunate to get in touch with the methods and people that helped me to ease the density of me ego and thus my suffering 
• Talking of trauma and methods: for everybody being as desperate as I was about not being able to change: I am 100% convinced that's it's possible to access these deep dense structures and to dissolve them. For me, it works in deep meditative states. I can literally feel them. It takes time, it takes the right conditions, it takes the willingness to go through pain but I know that it's possible. Other methods might be better for others but if you are ready, the method will follow.

Edited Tuesday at 10:36 PM by theleelajoker

[PurpleTree]

15 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Nice thread. 

Unlike you guys, I can't remember how and when my ego structure evolved and became so dense. Some fragments, but most is probably still in my subconscious.

But I fully resonate with the mechanisms and examples you describe. 

• Gaining control by learning certain behavior, creating stories and believes building self protection structures on top 
• Easing tensions with substances (for me, lots of weed)
• Complexity with trauma. I could understand many things, mechanisms clearly but also couldn't access it. Blockages that frustrated me for years and nothing I could do on a conscious level, no matter how hard I tried. Hated myself for that (not anymore)
• Psychedelics - yeah very slippery slope. Without my first LSD experience, I think would never started this journey towards freedom. But IMO they are less the solution and more a catalyzer, jump starter 
• Grace and luck...oh yes. I was very fortunate to get in touch with the methods and people that helped me to ease the density of me ego and thus my suffering 
• Talking of trauma and methods: for everybody being as desperate as I was about not being able to change: I am 100% convinced that's it's possible to access these deep dense structures and to dissolve them. For me, it works in deep meditative states. I can literally feel them. It takes time, it takes the right conditions, it takes the willingness to go through pain but I know that it's possible. Other methods might be better for others but if you are ready, the method will follow.

How has the idea/belief of time itself been for you or been affected by those practices ? Seemingly for me it’s getting a bit wobblier.

[PurpleTree]

18 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Nice thread. 

Unlike you guys, I can't remember how and when my ego structure evolved and became so dense. Some fragments, but most is probably still in my subconscious.

But I fully resonate with the mechanisms and examples you describe. 

• Gaining control by learning certain behavior, creating stories and believes building self protection structures on top 
• Easing tensions with substances (for me, lots of weed)
• Complexity with trauma. I could understand many things, mechanisms clearly but also couldn't access it. Blockages that frustrated me for years and nothing I could do on a conscious level, no matter how hard I tried. Hated myself for that (not anymore)
• Psychedelics - yeah very slippery slope. Without my first LSD experience, I think would never started this journey towards freedom. But IMO they are less the solution and more a catalyzer, jump starter 
• Grace and luck...oh yes. I was very fortunate to get in touch with the methods and people that helped me to ease the density of me ego and thus my suffering 
• Talking of trauma and methods: for everybody being as desperate as I was about not being able to change: I am 100% convinced that's it's possible to access these deep dense structures and to dissolve them. For me, it works in deep meditative states. I can literally feel them. It takes time, it takes the right conditions, it takes the willingness to go through pain but I know that it's possible. Other methods might be better for others but if you are ready, the method will follow.

With trauma i think it’s good if you can find early core wounds and then beliefs which are attached to it. For example i grew up without a father which is a core wound already. Almost all other classmates had a father. So there were already a lot of beliefs of there something being wrong with me for not having a father. Not being good enough etc. early on.

[PurpleTree]

Another description of the egoic structure is

pattern recognition

And preparing and bracing for a future from past events.

Just a survival mechanism.

[Hojo]

@PurpleTree My father wrote a note to my mother in the note he told her he didnt want us and that we were not even worth a happy meal and my mother decided it was good to let us know. I remeber sitting around staring at my brothers and we were just like we are not worth anything. The identities of children are their parents.

Edited Tuesday at 11:05 PM by Hojo

[PurpleTree]

1 minute ago, Hojo said:

@PurpleTree My father wrote a note to my mother in the note he told her he didnt want us and that we were not even worth a happy meal and my mother decided it was good to let us know we knew that. I remeber sitting around staring at my brothers and we were just like we are not worth anything.

Damn that’s sad.

[theleelajoker]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

How has the idea/belief of time itself been for you or been affected by those practices ? Seemingly for me it’s getting a bit wobblier.

Yeah, it's more living in the moment, realizing it's all there is.

And I also had my father issues but when I talked to him after a long time, I realized that the shitty mental image I had of him of the past is plain wrong. 

Time, memories, images - it all gets blurred.

But exactly this is also the power to change. I realize my part in creating the story. I take responsibility and I gain freedom for me and others. 

Edited Wednesday at 12:03 AM by theleelajoker

[Lyubov]

7 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

So seemingly at some point in early childhood the egoic structure seem to take a more dense form.

Especially with some traumatic experiences. For example someone says your laugh is ugly then you try to hide or change the way you laugh or just laugh less as it seems more safe. Or you get the impression or being taught that you need to suppress your anger or be less sensitive. So as a safety mechanism, to fit in etc. you try to change and control yourself basically through beliefs.

Then other things get built on top self protection mechanism and so on.

So then you get more constricted, contracted, controlled, depressed.

The idea of time itself also deepens and contracts more.

The more traumatic experiences the more the egoic structure seemingly becomes a control freak for self and others.

At some point the protection mechanisms might cause too much suffering so maybe you try to ease up with drugs or alcohol or something.

Anyway at some point there might be a glimpse that it doesn’t necessarily need to be this way. So then you might try to untangle yourself from beliefs and constrictions and control. Which is quite complex. Especially if some trauma is involved.

Ego is basically control through thoughts and beliefs.

So the amount of control the ego can let go of control is the amount of freedom to be had. But it’s letting go into the unknown. Which the ego basically can’t.

So basically all comes down to grace or luck whether and how much these structures soften.

The end.

I agree with everything you wrote up to until the end. It isn’t up to grace or luck. It’s about taking responsibility and reparenting yourself, shepherding the ego with love. What you are I believe is something beyond just the body, something so indescribable and great it’s difficult to maybe comprehend or understand. But one thing you know is that the ego can’t drive the car. We know it’s familiar and we can definitely thank this ego (I call it the inner child since it really is just like a child) for trying to protect us. But we see we can’t have it grasping at the illusion of control. And it’s like you said, the ego just doesn’t like this unknown and unfamiliar because it sees it as unsafe but we have always lived in the unknown, nothing changes about living in the unknown. This is one of the core teachings of Taoism and Wu Wei. We live in the unknown, we are floating down the river, there are crocodiles in the river so we can do our best to navigate it, but moment to moment we don’t know. We don’t know what will happen in 1 second from now. It’s just unknown. The very paradoxical thing about is it isn’t up to luck. It’s up to responsibility. The inner child doesn’t like oneself living responsibly because it is then accountable. For example say you honestly know you love music and for you, you want to make your life purpose about music, and you take on this responsibility but let’s say you run out of money and now you need to get strategic about your finances which may be interfering with you practicing your music, the inner child doesn’t like this because it doesn’t like the unpredictability and how life can invite in criticism from others and situations not going our way. The ego / inner child would just criticize you about you a being a failed musician rather than a balanced belief system where you maybe acknowledge your finances need work but you can also find time to focus some on music too. You choose your beliefs. You are not and never have been a victim to this structure. You can choose to soften it if you so want but often times it’s not helpful to do so by sheer force but with love and recognition. Something so powerful from your core that it doesn’t ever need to exert itself. It’s so loving it never forces, it’s silent, still, wisdom. It has nothing to prove and watches over with no judgement and in the most indescribable loving way, offering guidance if we so wish to nurture our connection to it and listen. This is where the aspect of balance comes in and living in Wu Wei. We balance and live through this silent wisdom within but at the same time do not judge this sometimes childlike human side to us, they dance together, will h the spirit leading and the child looking out in wonder at the miracle of life.

[theleelajoker]

50 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

I agree with everything you wrote up to until the end. It isn’t up to grace or luck. It’s about taking responsibility and reparenting yourself, shepherding the ego with love. What you are I believe is something beyond just the body, something so indescribable and great it’s difficult to maybe comprehend or understand. But one thing you know is that the ego can’t drive the car. We know it’s familiar and we can definitely thank this ego (I call it the inner child since it really is just like a child) for trying to protect us. But we see we can’t have it grasping at the illusion of control. And it’s like you said, the ego just doesn’t like this unknown and unfamiliar because it sees it as unsafe but we have always lived in the unknown, nothing changes about living in the unknown. This is one of the core teachings of Taoism and Wu Wei. We live in the unknown, we are floating down the river, there are crocodiles in the river so we can do our best to navigate it, but moment to moment we don’t know. We don’t know what will happen in 1 second from now. It’s just unknown. The very paradoxical thing about is it isn’t up to luck. It’s up to responsibility. The inner child doesn’t like oneself living responsibly because it is then accountable. For example say you honestly know you love music and for you, you want to make your life purpose about music, and you take on this responsibility but let’s say you run out of money and now you need to get strategic about your finances which may be interfering with you practicing your music, the inner child doesn’t like this because it doesn’t like the unpredictability and how life can invite in criticism from others and situations not going our way. The ego / inner child would just criticize you about you a being a failed musician rather than a balanced belief system where you maybe acknowledge your finances need work but you can also find time to focus some on music too. You choose your beliefs. You are not and never have been a victim to this structure. You can choose to soften it if you so want but often times it’s not helpful to do so by sheer force but with love and recognition. Something so powerful from your core that it doesn’t ever need to exert itself. It’s so loving it never forces, it’s silent, still, wisdom. It has nothing to prove and watches over with no judgement and in the most indescribable loving way, offering guidance if we so wish to nurture our connection to it and listen. This is where the aspect of balance comes in and living in Wu Wei. We balance and live through this silent wisdom within but at the same time do not judge this sometimes childlike human side to us, they dance together, will h the spirit leading and the child looking out in wonder at the miracle of life.

Great post. As I wrote above, I agree about taking responsibility. As of today, it seems like a tradeoff between freedom and responsibility for me.

But how did I meet the people, how did I get into situations that allowed me this insight? What made me recognize and then decide that I want to make that tradeoff? What makes me approach these mechanisms with love instead of force?  Who is actually softening the ego structures? Why are there people that seem to be be stuck in the same pattern for many years, while others manage to make gain freedom? Who or what allows me to let go of control instead of holding onto things?

NO FUCKING IDEA.

[Lyubov]

45 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Great post. As I wrote above, I agree about taking responsibility. As of today, it seems like a tradeoff between freedom and responsibility for me.

But how did I meet the people, how did I get into situations that allowed me this insight? What made me recognize and then decide that I want to make that tradeoff? What makes me approach these mechanisms with love instead of force?  Who is actually softening the ego structures? Why are there people that seem to be be stuck in the same pattern for many years, while others manage to make gain freedom? Who or what allows me to let go of control instead of holding onto things?

NO FUCKING IDEA.

Those are some interesting questions and I myself don't have entirely complete answers to them. I think it's really a process through living this sometimes challenging, sometimes beautiful life which maybe gives us some wisdom into this. I'm sure you have pieced some unique insights together from some of them and we are always learning every day. This is the mystery. I don't see an end to learning and I'm not sure we would ever want it, I mean it means th end of learning which is one of the most meaningful things about life, to learn and change and evolve. There is this spirit, some call it god here, many people bring different labels for it here, it's indescribable and it's like you follow it but we never know where it leads, we just experience, know it's right in some strange but right way. 1) we were born here, this life exists now 2) we are on our journey that is unique to us, we are responsible and accountable for this, our soul's journey, we can go against it, nothing judges us for it, but that is just our choice if we so wish to swim against. I don't really have answers or really know anything. I maybe know just a few things that seem to make my life increasingly beautiful and peaceful as this crazy world changes day by day into something so unrecognizable from when I was a boy.