Why i am not a vegan ?

[integral]

1 hour ago, Michael569 said:

You don't know that. Not every person is a McDonald's hamburger eater. Lot of people get their red meat from home-cooked beef stews, steaks, a variety of pasta dishes, etc. Many of those could be sourced from better quality areas so I can't comment on this because we don't know. 

Also, as far as I am aware, thre isn't a major consensus on grass fed being that superior that it becomes clinically relevant. There might be a slightly higher component of things like vitamin E and Omega 3 but overall, it hasn't been proven that it is better. 

It is more ethical, that's for sure. 

I was replying specifically on iron topic. You  jumped in and opened it up for a wider conversation so the burden of proof is on you now. So far you haven't proven anything

 

You're probably getting that in white meat and fish too, yet it showed benefit....why?

Sure but that's not what we are discussing here in this micro conversation 

 do you think a person with dementia would pass pre-screening for study participation? Like do you actually expect a person, who does not know their name, to be able to fill in a food frequency questionnaire? And understand it?

lmao 16 years after yes

where exactly did you see this? 

Seeing as 23% of them died and not all of them were eating red meat, So the other participants that were still alive obviously some percentage of them had to have problems and none of them are tracked.

Well, doing this sort of research on teenagers isn't going to make much sense since none of your subject participants actually develop CVD regardless of what they eat. Older people are , statistically, at higher risk of developing the outcomes you are interested in and are more reliable population sample.

You would have to track overall health and other metrics like intelligence something like that, stamina whatever, and not sickness

We just keep working with sickness in all of these studies instead of figuring out what is actually healthy

But that's not the point of the nutritional research. You have dietetics and nutritional therapy for person-to-person support. The point of the nutritional evidence is to understand the physiological impacts of different food groups (among other things) and be able to (within limits) minimise the influence of variables not studied.

The purpose of nutritional epidemiology is to help create public health guidelines through which individuals can receive personal support down the chain. You're derailing the conversation. 

It doesn't matter the theory does not work in practice because the way these studies are conducted creates incentives to look at the data in a very specific way.

The science has value but because there's so much conflicting everything you get people that are telling you to just eat 2 lb of lentils a day.

You can take this study and do backflips with it.

When working with someone the first question is well what's going to work for them and then to narrow in on something that ultimately works for their health.

You give them a general meal plan then when certain things don't work for them, they adjust, this is perfectly fine but what you're not doing is taking the theory and just applying it into practice blindly.

If these people don't feel good without meat in their body you're not just dogmatically telling them that they're going to die, clearly this has to be individuated

And that's precisely the point is that this study is an average and completely ignores individuation

I'm sorry but I can't take statements like this credibly. This is a typical bs on carnivore forums. "I don't understand it and I cant be bothered to read it so its all bs.

It's making General sweeping statements About meat and iron consumption because it's averaging everything

And I'm not advocating for carnivore lol

How does that help us any closer at all? First of all, what is "garbage food"

This study does a good job showing processed food is bad most of these studies are fairly decent when it comes to that but then they take it a step further and make a very strong suggestion to remove it entirely from the diet without the Nuance that some people need this

Even if I granted that, I don't see how that gets us any further. 

It's the most important factor, that if a study tells you that nuts increase lifespan that you can't just apply this to everyone. It's precisely not saying that you can now apply this to everyone

Let's say this study is showing a problem with heme iron consumption University without any individuality between anyone. That does not mean you can remove this crucial nutrient from the diet and simply supplement. 

It's like the studies that "prove" some ingredients in red wine will make you live longer, okay but that doesn't mean you should be drinking it.

You're taking something vital (iron) and then you're claiming that we should just remove this from the diet With Alternatives and supplementation

so what is the study really trying to tell us, that our foods create damage, but don’t we already know this. And this is useful information, but it does not mean the right strategy now in practice is we need to remove it and supplement?

Edited yesterday at 06:20 PM by integral

[D2sage]

Meat is king. Except pork because it is the lowest quality meat.

Hard to build muscles eating broccoli and avocado. But eating cow meat has the essentials that your muscle want to get those muscles growing.

 

The alzheimer brain is 90% deficient in acetylcholine neurotransmitter. <<---Brain chemical responsible for memory.

Food rich in acetylcholine are eggs, liver and meat.

Edited yesterday at 06:15 PM by D2sage

[Emerald]

20 hours ago, Basman said:

It's not even a question that excluding animal products is more nutritionally challenging from a purely health perspective, but the point of veganism isn't health first and foremost but taking a moral stance. If health was the first priority then including animal products in your diet is a no brainer. They are highly effective, assuming you make healthy choices.

I used to think the same thing when I first went Vegan about 9 years ago.

I went Vegan for ethical reasons. And then health-wise, I was like "a whole food Vegan or whole food omnivores diet are probably similarly healthy."

But then, a couple years ago, I actually looked into the research on how the consumption of animals and animal products are more likely to lead to the formation of plaques in the arterial walls compared to the consumption of plants... and how this leads to greater instances in heart disease and stroke.

And this is because animal products are higher in saturated fats compared to plant sources, where most plant sources (except coconut) tend to be low in saturated fat.

And given that heart disease and stroke are the biggest health-related killers, I no longer hold the belief that plant-based diets and ominivorous diets are equally healthy.

[Michael569]

@integral I don't know if I care enough to continue with this discussion as we aren't getting anywhere useful. 

Unless we want to bring it back to where it started. "Do we need heme iron in diet? If yes, why? What is the evidence? In healthy adults specifically I mean. 

I'm not super keen to carry on otherwise as this is just widening the scope and we could go on for a week. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Michael569

[Michael569]

16 hours ago, D2sage said:

The alzheimer brain is 90% deficient in acetylcholine neurotransmitter. <<---Brain chemical responsible for memory.

Food rich in acetylcholine are eggs, liver and meat.

There is a bit more going on in the brain of person diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Formation of Lewy bodies and Tau proteins isn't necessary linked to acetylcholine. What you may see is loss of neuronal excitability exactly because the functional structure of the brain is being replaced by necrotic tissue and beta amyloid. So its not that ACT deficiency is causing it, it is that there is less activity going on because the cerebral tissue is dying. 

You can't make the argument that Alzheimer's is basically meat deficiency which the above comment seems to refer to. That would be oversimplifying the issue to the point that it doesn't make it true. In fact, most people with Alzheimer's have probably been eating meat and eggs throughout their whole life if you looked at food frequency questionaire studies. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Michael569

[Schizophonia]

I am not vegan because i don’t care about animals well being (admitting there is actually a objective world with things that happen outside) just like i don’t care about the Chinese worker who did my iPhone.

It’s not a priority in my karma.

And i actually have a karma in the opposite sense where veganism seems hard to follow and is linked to neurotic thinking.

Technically if you don’t have karma you would end up finish breatharian, and actually if really you don’t have any karma you wouldn’t be « alive » anyway, you would be nothing/everything.

What i reproach to some vegans, but even anti-vegans ; everyone pretending being in the « good side » for some reason, is tacitly pretending being not karmic.

But there is no « no karmic side »; it’s the illusion of separation, hence mirrors effect, because fundamentally karma is sideless, it’s beyond of that.

Everyone who pretend being « the good side » is fundamentally « demonic ».

Edited 12 hours ago by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

9 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

There is a bit more going on in the brain of person diagnosed with Alzheimer's. Formation of Lewy bodies and Tau proteins isn't necessary linked to acetylcholine. What you may see is loss of neuronal excitability exactly because the functional structure of the brain is being replaced by necrotic tissue and beta amyloid. So its not that ACT deficiency is causing it, it is that there is less activity going on because the cerebral tissue is dying. 

You can't make the argument that Alzheimer's is basically meat deficiency which the above comment seems to refer to. That would be a bit simplistic way to look at human physiology. 

 

 

Alzheimer's is the expression of the calcification of the maya. It happens to people with an increasingly repetitive rhythm of life, because they are afraid of confrontation with their emptyness; that is, of their unhappiness, unhappiness of their attachment.

Happiness and creativity is in the unknown, Alzheimer's does not appear to creative and open-minded people because they do not need to destroy their memory as a desperate attempt to forget their regret.

[Schizophonia]

From a non dual pov, « What ? » to do isn’t important.

What has importance is the « Why ? »

[Michael569]

Just now, Schizophonia said:

Alzheimer's is the expression of the calcification of the maya. It happens to people with an increasingly repetitive rhythm of life, because they are afraid of confrontation with their emptyness; that is, of their unhappiness, unhappiness of their attachment.

Happiness and creativity is in the unknown, Alzheimer's does not appear to creative and open-minded people because they do not need to destroy their memory as a desperate attempt to forget their regret.

Deep down on the most very fundamental existential level, this is probably true...at least partially 

[integral]

45 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

Do we need heme iron in diet? If yes, why? What is the evidence? In healthy adults specifically I mean

You’re asking for science to give you evidence of why you should remove the most important nutrients of 100s of millions of years of evolution from the human diet and replace it with a supplement so of course in order to dissolution the idea that that study has anything to do with evidence you have to expand the scope.

We’re talking about a paradigm and a belief system not evidence supporting facts.

if the study does show evidence that Hema iron shortens lifespan, it does not say that an alternative is better for the general population

If you want to replace it with fish well now you have mercury problems. If you wanna replace it to white meat then now you might have iron absorption problems people are deficient.

And seeing as every individual is different, you’re gonna get 30% of people on the left side of the Bell curve that would react very badly to just removing these primordial foods from the diet and supplementing.

I’m not supporting carnivore or anything like that I’m talking about the individuality of every human that is completely lost when you average out everything

If 30% of people on the left side of the belt curve require Hema iron to thrive, and that is averaged out and lost in the study, what is that saying about all these studies?

Edited 12 hours ago by integral

[Schizophonia]

4 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

Deep down on the most very fundamental existential level, this is probably true...at least partially 

I want to suffer from dementia, or at least lack of motivation and/or brain fog, even ADHD-like symptoms, because I'm afraid of suffering when I realize I'm wasting and « has wasted my life »my life.

 

And I prefer to remain, narcissistically, in my poor daily routine than to indulge myself in an attempt to signal my unhappiness, because I am unhappy that my present and past unhappiness is not recognized. Like, “I can’t change now and love myself, because what good will all this suffering have done?!”

 

And I am so unhappy that my suffering is not recognized because I believe that I have no right to be immobilized by suffering ; that I'm going to be attacked.

Typically, for exemple the case of someone who had to work for her parents when she was little, and got yelled at for being more unproductive due to clumsiness, anxiety, or something like that; loud enough that it was repressed and prevented awareness and perspective.

 

[Michael569]

57 minutes ago, integral said:

If you want to replace it with fish well now you have mercury problems. If you wanna replace it to white meat then now you might have iron absorption problems people are deficient.

Just for the sake of argument, what if I replace it with 50mg of ferrous glycinate. Pure supplement. Nothing else in there. 

Why is that a problem? 

How is that a problem? 

If the alternative is to eat steak every day, how do we know that's better or worse? 

57 minutes ago, integral said:

why you should remove the most important nutrients of 100s of millions of years of evolution from the human diet

Humans have been eating bovine steaks for 100 millions of years despite farming being like 10,000 years old? Not to mention cattle being introduced to America in like 1600s. 

Anyways, this takes us away from the point but I had to question it 

Edited 11 hours ago by Michael569

[Michael569]

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

I want to suffer from dementia, or at least lack of motivation and/or brain fog, even ADHD-like symptoms, because I'm afraid of suffering when I realize I'm wasting and « has wasted my life »my life.

 

And I prefer to remain, narcissistically, in my poor daily routine than to indulge myself in an attempt to signal my unhappiness, because I am unhappy that my present and past unhappiness is not recognized. Like, “I can’t change now and love myself, because what good will all this suffering have done?!”

 

And I am so unhappy that my suffering is not recognized because I believe that I have no right to be immobilized by suffering ; that I'm going to be attacked.

Typically, for exemple the case of someone who had to work for her parents when she was little, and got yelled at for being more unproductive due to clumsiness, anxiety, or something like that; loud enough that it was repressed and prevented awareness and perspective.

I'm not sure how to respond to this 

Edited 11 hours ago by Michael569

[integral]

1 hour ago, Michael569 said:

Just for the sake of argument, what if I replace it with 50mg of ferrous glycinate. Pure supplement. Nothing else in there. 

Why is that a problem? 

How is that a problem? 

• Because you're not removing iron from the diet you're moving a bunch of components from the diet all at the same time which is the whole animal source. That will take for some people up to 5-10 years to show up as a problem. Anything long-term is basically outside the scope of science.

• The supplements cause digestion pain And many people use Heme iron supplements to avoid that. So this doesn't generally just work.

• Am I supposed to cite a bunch of studies on malnourished vegan who are attempting to supplement and that doesn't work for them?

• Most importantly when it doesn't work in practice, The individual has to stop doing it?

• Which means what you do in practice is separate from what theory is saying, and this is not wrong in any way, in practice you have a strategy of how to apply science. Science which is a map that doesn't fully account for everything.

• Data oriented science academic types are not interested in how to apply science in practice which is a completely separate science that is not investigated.

1 hour ago, Michael569 said:

If the alternative is to eat steak every day, how do we know that's better or worse? 

They feel bad. It didn't work in practice. Individualized nutrition. For many of them it takes years before any problems show up. And then those problems are conflated with other things.

Or run studies that work with people of a large sample size for 50 years on a strict diet of supplements and alternative Foods. And compared to a study of 50 years or people strictly follow a healthy omnivore diet less reliant on supplements

1 hour ago, Michael569 said:

Humans have been eating bovine steaks for 100 millions of years despite farming being like 10,000 years old? Not to mention cattle being introduced to America in like 1600s. 

They've been eating animals. 

There's about six+ nutrients that you have to supplement if you're going to remove animals from the diet completely.

Or you need to consume alternative ingredients found across the world that were not accessible all in one place for 100 million years.

---

I'm not for carnivore, I'm saying that none of these studies are saying you should just remove these foods from the diet and everyone will Thrive and just start supplementing.

I don't know why this leap of faith is happening?

Like there's no individual differences between people?

Supplementation working is all theoretical at scale And we know that supplements are not this perfect solution so obviously at scale there's going to be Mass problems and a bell curve Of people that it will work and won't

Edited 10 hours ago by integral

[Schizophonia]

54 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

I'm not sure how to respond to this 

You don’t have to : )

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

I am not vegan because i don’t care about animals well being (admitting there is actually a objective world with things that happen outside) just like i don’t care about the Chinese worker who did my iPhone.

Thank you for being honest.

It makes sense that you are not Vegan... because you don't have Vegan values.

I disagree with your position. But I can at least respect that you are not doing mental gymnastics and going into cognitive dissonance to try to maintain an identity of goodness.