Why i am not a vegan ?

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Majed said:

@Emerald I'm making the claim that we will never have a vegan world, because of thousands of years of culinary cultures and traditions. 

You're shifting the goal posts. That isn't what you said in your original post.

In your original post, you said that the existence of Veganism is an "insult" to thousands of years of traditions and "throws them away" and that that's specifically why you're not a Vegan.

And that is quite a different claim to "We will never have a Vegan world due to the existence of culinary traditions."

It was very much a justification for your own choices by framing Veganism as "bad because it's a threat to culture"... and not a neutral impersonal statement of  how a "Vegan world won't happen because of culture".

---

But to your goal-post-shifted point, I suspect that the realization of a "Vegan world" is one that will happen through technological developments regarding lab-grown meat, dairy, and eggs and not through the universal practice of Veganism.

But despite a "Vegan world" not being something that will happen in our lifetimes, one can always choose to reduce harm now by going Vegan and taking a small chip out of the profits of the meat and dairy industry. 

And one can choose to live in integrity with their values even if it isn't going to solve the whole problem.

Most Vegans aren't Vegan because they believe that the whole world will go Vegan and the idea that Veganism is going to solve the whole problem. Instead, they look to neutralize their own participation in a system that they disagree with... and for Vegans who are also animal rights activists, they try to persuade others to do the same.

Think of it a bit like this story...

"A young girl was walking along a beach upon which thousands of starfish had been washed up during a terrible storm. When she came to each starfish, she would pick it up, and throw it back into the ocean. People watched her with amusement.

She had been doing this for some time when a man approached her and said, “Little girl, why are you doing this? Look at this beach! You can’t save all these starfish. You can’t begin to make a difference!”

The girl seemed crushed, suddenly deflated. But after a few moments, she bent down, picked up another starfish, and hurled it as far as she could into the ocean. Then she looked up at the man and replied,

“Well, I made a difference for that one!"

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, AION said:

Vegans and non-vegans tend to gaslight each other so I wouldn't take everything that is being said serious. Obviously a cow has more sentience than a daisy flower but that doesn't mean a cow should get the same rights as a human, because a cow is an animal while a human is a human. I think humans tend to project their own paradigms on animals. Animals experience reality in a different way. In one of my psychedelic trips I discovered this.

I'm not making the claim that a cow should get more rights within the context of a human society than a human has... and that is a straw man of my position.

My argument is that the life and well-being of a cow should be treated as more important than the fleeting pleasure the human feels while they're consuming the cow for pleasure. 

Like, if it were like "Either this cow will be killed or this human will be killed."... by all means... kill the cow if those are truly the only options.

That's why I have no problem with people eating meat or animal products to sustain life IF it's really necessary to sustain life.

And I believe that all animals get to prioritize the life of one of their own species over the life of that of another.

So, I have no problem with humans considering humans more important and killing other species of creatures to save and/or sustain a human life... any more than I have a problem with bees stinging another creature they believe to be a threat to their hive or a lion eating an antelope.

A species prioritizing others of its own species is just part of the circle of life... and projects no false hierarchies of importance onto nature.

My issue is when human beings operate as though they are superior to other creatures in some absolute way.

And because of this grandiosity and illusion of human exceptionalism, they feel their own fleeting sensory pleasures are more important than the entire life of another sentient being... or even the well-being of the eco-system itself.

[AION]

@Emerald I seriously consider you contemplate on the shame I talked about. Veganism is just a mental construct you bought into. If I put a perfectly smoked salmon in front of your eyes, you know your body wants to merge with it. I believe you could still reduce your co2 footprint by just eating it once a month because I think on the long term it is not healthy to stay vegan. Most vegans struggle with this. Only certain people can get away with vegan lifestyle for a life time:

Vegans who campaign for their diet kind or reminds me with my struggle with porn. When I struggled with my porn addiction, I would go on thet internet and put up this air of being this guy who defeated my lusts and start virtue signalling. I discovered this was just a coping mechanism. Trying to fight an outer battle to avoid the inner battle. I think most fervent vegans who campaign for veganism have the same dynamic. 

We all want to reduce co2 footprint but you being vegan doesn't zero your co2. If you truly want to zero your co2 footprint you have to unalive yourself. So in other words, to be alive we commit a certain evil at the expense of the world. I have come to terms with this in my own way. I like to travel, drive a car and do all kinds of things that destroy the environment but that is part of being human.

Edited May 16 by AION

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, AION said:

@Emerald I seriously consider you contemplate on the shame I talked about. Veganism is just a mental construct you bought into. If I put a perfectly smoked salmon in front of your eyes, you know your body wants to merge with it. I believe you could still reduce your co2 footprint by just eating it once a month because I think on the long term it is not healthy to stay vegan. Most vegans struggle with this. Only certain people can get away with vegan lifestyle for a life time:

Vegans who campaign for their diet kind or reminds me with my struggle with porn. When I struggled with my porn addiction, I would go on thet internet and put up this air of being this guy who defeated my lusts and start virtue signalling. I discovered this was just a coping mechanism. Trying to fight an outer battle to avoid the inner battle. I think most fervent vegans who campaign for veganism have the same dynamic. 

We all want to reduce co2 footprint but you being vegan doesn't zero your co2. If you truly want to zero your co2 footprint you have to unalive yourself. So in other words, to be alive we commit a certain evil at the expense of the world. I have come to terms with this in my own way. I like to travel, drive a car and do all kinds of things that destroy the environment but that is part of being human.

Veganism is a choice that I have made to stay in integrity with my own values and to honor my own boundaries because I want to utilize what little power I have to reduce suffering... not a coping mechanism to deal with shame.

And everything you've written here is a coping mechanism through which to defend your own dietary choices (to yourself) and to discredit the values and choices of Vegans, so as to make your perspective "correct" and their perspective "incorrect" in your own eyes.

And you wouldn't need to do all this Veganism invalidation, if you felt your actions were truly in integrity with your values.

You just want to feel better about your choices, so you have to rationalize yourself that Veganism is delusional, a coping mechanism, wrong, unsustainable, unhealthy, unspiritual, unnatural, harmful, etc.

Non-Vegans do this type of rationalization all the time to invalidate the choices of Vegans to get comfort from their own cognitive dissonance.

It's trying to convince everyone that Veganism is wrong because they can't handle the fact that some people choose Veganism and that it is a valid choice that comes from deeply held values and not some pathology.

Also, you can find plenty of anecdotes of people quitting all sorts of diets.

Like, I could find videos of people quitting a whole food omnivorous diet or a Keto diet or the Carnivore diet in favor of a Vegan one and reporting feelings so much better and healthier.

But these anecdotes don't mean anything about the actual health and sustainability of the diet itself.

Plus, people who quit Veganism tend to want to invalidate Veganism itself as "unhealthy" or "unsustainable" because they have Vegan values... but have chosen to abandon living by those values.

So, it is precisely people who leave behind a Vegan diet who have the most incentive to create narratives around the Vegan diet being unhealthy and to seek validation from people who will tell them, "Don't worry. It's obvious that the Vegan diet is unhealthy and unsustainable. You're correct for changing your diet."

But it's just the same kind of rationalization to assuage guilt and to go unconscious to the misalignment of values that people who have never been Vegan before have... but on steroids, since that person has already become conscious enough of their values to make the choice to go Vegan in the first place.

So, it takes a lot more mental gymnastics to assuage the guilt and cognitive dissonance for people who go Vegan and then quit. They have to find a way to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

But in terms of ACTUAL research that's been done (of various studies and meta-analyses)... plant-based diets are associated with healthier BMIs, lower cholesterol, and lower instances of heart disease and stroke (the number one killers).

So, there is no science backing up your assertion that Veganism is unhealthy or unsustainable.

It is just an incorrect assumption that you must hold onto to justify your own actions to yourself.

Edited May 16 by Emerald

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Emerald my hat off to You for your patience in explaining the core of the matter to these mo…dels.

[Emerald]

11 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Emerald my hat off to You for your patience in explaining the core of the matter to these mo…dels.

Thank you. It's important to keep getting people to face with the truth of how they actually feel about their own choices.

People lie to themselves when they are out of integrity with their own values.

I did the same thing until I went Vegan 9 years ago, where I was always justifying my own actions through rationalizations of futility, like "It doesn't matter anyway because animals will still die."

And the biggest challenge around making the shift is to recognize my own power and the fact that I had been choosing a course of actions that was partially responsible for bringing about outcomes that harm animals that I did not want to happen.

I just denied my own power by rationalizing that small power was the same as no power. And that way, I could avoid taking responsibility for my own choices.

More than any kind of rationale as to the benefits of abstaining from eating meat and dairy is the ability to get someone to face squarely with the truth of their own values and feelings.

[carterfelder]

Someone's ability to go and stay vegan for ethical reasons says a lot about them. It says they're able to let go of their comfort in feeling more socially-accepted, the convenience of having many more options at the store or while eating out, or not having to worry about finding a vegan to date or trying to gently convince a date you see a future with to embrace veganism.

I would say most folks reject veganism because it means letting go of things that have to do with energy conservation (our ego's resistance to change), disappointing others ("sorry bro, we can't go get wings anymore"), and of course the judgment of others, which many don't care to detach from by increasing self-love and understanding.

Until a certain percentage of the population reaches the tipping point for the rest of the population to follow suit and go vegan, we will use every damn excuse we can to resist what is a moral imperative for nonhuman animals: veganism, or not using animals and not purchasing/consuming animal products. It's because most of us eat from animals are nearly every single meal. It's a big convenience that the stubborn human ego is very good at resisting. Without friends and family pushing us to change, why would we?

[Basman]

10 hours ago, integral said:

@Majed the moment 3d printing meat becomes cheaper than growing a full cow. It will replace the world production of meat.

I don't think it's likely that we'll ever get a fully vegan society since there will still be people running their own farms, fishing, hunting, or are into price beef, etc. Certain meats have culture attached to them.

That said, fake meat slop is the final form of Mcnuggets and soggy burgers. Doesn't even need to have the texture or necessarily the taste of real meat. Just deep fried paste with extra sugar and salt. 

Probably won't happen in our lifetime though.

[integral]

@Basman that’s true they would have to 3-D print it to be bio identical to the original, which is never gonna happen in our capitalist society.

They will market it as identical, but it won’t be and we’ll just make the whole planet more sick than it already is

[Leo Gura]

3D printed rat meat for all!

RatNuggets with BBQ sauce for the kids.

Edited May 17 by Leo Gura

[ExploringReality]

@Emerald

Yes.  are we eating to live or are we eating to die? Is a question I love asking my self. Being more conscious of what goes into my mouth has made a huge shift in my physical and mental performance, but also got me in touch with my feelings on a cellular level and on an emotional level, my body became very sensitive to junk food, dairy and processed meats after switching over to a whole food diet. If I drink a cup of soda, it makes me feel bad and a shit storm erupts with an gnarly stomach ache. But more than that, I can connect deeper with my body, other life forms no matter how far away, small, big, dangerous and cute. I can see into an animal's eyes and see a sovereign consciousness looking back. 

Also I became disgusted with how society, the educational system and media completely rot us through food from the very beginning. Classrooms are filled with junk foods to reward kids good behavior. It makes me angry as to think about how my parents were chewed up and spit out of this same system. When I eat, I am more mindful of what and how I eat, honoring the body, nature and all sentient beings. 

[integral]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

3D printed rat meat for all!

RatNuggets with BBQ sauce for the kids.

lmaoaooo, I only eat my own meat 3D printed from my own DNA and bio-waist. 

I only self-consume.

Edited May 17 by integral

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

3D printed rat meat for all!

RatNuggets with BBQ sauce for the kids.

My husband, my kids, and I sometimes joke that, in the future, you will be able to eat lab-grown "self-burgers".

Just take a sample of your own DNA... give it to the lab-grown burger company... they create a custom batch of self-meat from the DNA... and bon appetit!

We even came up with a business concept called "love burger", where you and your significant other can create lab-grown "self-burgers" and then eat each other on special occasions like Valentine's Day or wedding anniversaries.

Cue the puking cat image!  

But in all seriousness, there probably will be a market for lab-grown exotic meats... like lions, zebras, elephants, and other animals. 

And if someone really wanted to... rats could be on that list. 

[Leo Gura]

I had an idea for a Chipotle-like fast-food chain that serves dinosaur meat.

Pterodactyl bowl.

Velociraptor borrito.

Ichthyosaur tacos.

Jurassic Brunch

Edited May 17 by Leo Gura

[AION]

13 hours ago, Emerald said:

Veganism is a choice that I have made to stay in integrity with my own values and to honor my own boundaries because I want to utilize what little power I have to reduce suffering... not a coping mechanism to deal with shame.

And everything you've written here is a coping mechanism through which to defend your own dietary choices (to yourself) and to discredit the values and choices of Vegans, so as to make your perspective "correct" and their perspective "incorrect" in your own eyes.

And you wouldn't need to do all this Veganism invalidation, if you felt your actions were truly in integrity with your values.

You just want to feel better about your choices, so you have to rationalize yourself that Veganism is delusional, a coping mechanism, wrong, unsustainable, unhealthy, unspiritual, unnatural, harmful, etc.

Non-Vegans do this type of rationalization all the time to invalidate the choices of Vegans to get comfort from their own cognitive dissonance.

It's trying to convince everyone that Veganism is wrong because they can't handle the fact that some people choose Veganism and that it is a valid choice that comes from deeply held values and not some pathology.

Also, you can find plenty of anecdotes of people quitting all sorts of diets.

Like, I could find videos of people quitting a whole food omnivorous diet or a Keto diet or the Carnivore diet in favor of a Vegan one and reporting feelings so much better and healthier.

But these anecdotes don't mean anything about the actual health and sustainability of the diet itself.

Plus, people who quit Veganism tend to want to invalidate Veganism itself as "unhealthy" or "unsustainable" because they have Vegan values... but have chosen to abandon living by those values.

So, it is precisely people who leave behind a Vegan diet who have the most incentive to create narratives around the Vegan diet being unhealthy and to seek validation from people who will tell them, "Don't worry. It's obvious that the Vegan diet is unhealthy and unsustainable. You're correct for changing your diet."

But it's just the same kind of rationalization to assuage guilt and to go unconscious to the misalignment of values that people who have never been Vegan before have... but on steroids, since that person has already become conscious enough of their values to make the choice to go Vegan in the first place.

So, it takes a lot more mental gymnastics to assuage the guilt and cognitive dissonance for people who go Vegan and then quit. They have to find a way to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

But in terms of ACTUAL research that's been done (of various studies and meta-analyses)... plant-based diets are associated with healthier BMIs, lower cholesterol, and lower instances of heart disease and stroke (the number one killers).

So, there is no science backing up your assertion that Veganism is unhealthy or unsustainable.

It is just an incorrect assumption that you must hold onto to justify your own actions to yourself.

What you just all said I can flip it back onto you.

I'm not even campaigning against veganism so I won't engage in a discussion about the health aspect. There is evidence for and against it and you obviously you cite pro-vegan arguments without citing the anti-vegan arguments. 

About me coping, I don't know how I would be doing that because I accept the shame of being alive aka my co2 footprint and the death of other animals/plants/fungi for my human habitat/lifestyle to exist. You created a mental bubble thinking your existence doesn't go at the cost of other species. That is just not true. Vegan diet can even be more environmentally taxing depending on which diet/lifestyle you are following. I know vegans who don't eat meat and then go traveling 4 times per year... 😅😅😅... this pretentious moral superiority of vegans is not pleasant to say the least... 

To be honest I expected you to be more intellectually curious about your own shame since you are so into shadow work but that is ok. It is just something I noticed within the vegan community. I still think vegans have a good heart but they just deal with their existential shame to be alive in unhealthy ways, some going even into hating humans and even worse coping mechanisms. 

Edited May 17 by AION

[Basman]

Look forward to the fakest ever, most sugary and salty Mcnuggets that are 3D printed to look like a minion or whatever kids movie character that is out. Your kids will cry if you don't get them the Spider-man nuggets with strawberry flavor.

Lab meat is really the final frontier of junk food.

[Emerald]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I had an idea for a Chipotle-like fast-food chain that serves dinosaur meat.

Pterodactyl bowl.

Velociraptor borrito.

Ichthyosaur tacos.

Jurassic Brunch

Yes!!!! That's the kind of ingenuity we need for the new age!  

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@carterfelder thank You. Very important voice in this discussion.

[NewKidOnTheBlock]

I'd be honoured to post photos of me, gnawing on some juicy pteranodon KFC wings, to this forum or even vegan Facebook groups. I'm sure they'd be stoked to try my recipes

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, NewKidOnTheBlock said:

I'd be honoured to post photos of me, gnawing on some juicy pteranodon KFC wings,

Sounds like a job for AI.