New Video: 8 Unique & Original Proofs Of God

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Okay, well, I guess I really don't know what God is honestly. I don't know why reality is the way it is. I don't, at this time in this state understand.

[zurew]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's all fine, but God is more than just seperate worlds or universes or an endless possibility space.

Thats fine, but I dont think thats relevant to the explanation of horror and evil.

Whats relevant is the claim that his nature includes all horror and evil scenarios and thats what explains the existence of evil and horror.

In this case just as how @Xonas Pitfall described it well, its wrong for you to say that he wanted to design reality this way - no there was no creation and no design, its just God being himself and just by the fact that God exists - all those horrible and evil worlds and scenarios exists as well.

 

It makes 0 sense for you to say that God creatively designed the world this way (and that there was some grand design), when this world existing is literally part of its nature.

Edited May 17 by zurew

[Thought Art]

But, I am having a limited experience and I don't experience infinite horror right now. So, there is still the question of the finite domain and what it includes or doesn't include. Like, you could say there are infinite aliens but I don't see one. It's not satisfiying.

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Thought Art

The key is realizing that suffering, as we experience it, is deeply tied to our limited human perspective. When someone we love dies, it feels tragic. But that sense of tragedy comes from attachment, from identifying with a specific, localized viewpoint. From a more objective or universal perspective, it just means old genetics phasing out, and new, younger, stronger ones emerging. Nature is evolving. It’s a beautiful process. Something to be celebrated.

Take a museum as an analogy. When a painting is removed, no one calls it a tragedy - because we know it means new art is coming. If you were especially attached to one particular piece, you might feel its absence as a loss. But everyone else might welcome the change, especially if they connect with the new works in deeper ways. That doesn’t make it bad - it just means your view is personal, partial.

It’s the same with nature. Imagine a Lion and a zebra both surviving, in their own way:
"God, help me eat!"
"God, let me escape!"
Whose prayer does God answer? Who deserves to live? This dilemma only exists if you assume there should be a side to take. Each creature is doing what it evolved to do. Their clash isn't a flaw in the system - it's the system itself. Suffering exists because competing wills exist. As long as beings care about their continuation, their safety, comfort, offspring, and territory, there will be conflict. Not because something went wrong, but because that’s how life works.

So, from our narrow view, we call it “suffering.” But from the universal perspective - the view of the system as a whole - it is not seen as a tragedy, but as evolution, transformation, self-understanding.

Edited May 18 by cetus
A more appropriate example. Lion and zebra instead off Lion and coyote

[zurew]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't care if my explanations of God are easy. I care that they are true.

I know you don't care.

The problem is the epistemology part  -for some people who care about that.

It doesnt take any intelligence to say "this x way is the true way". Anyone can say that " lets say grant the my way is the true way and lets just forget about all this boring epistmology about making sense of things or justifying things".

When it comes to the question of whats the justification for that?

There will be a lot of explanations and models of God that will make more sense (to explain the facts of the world) than just  dogmatically trying to defend one way that is unexpected or less expected given all the facts of the world.

 

All your non-inferential justifications are incredibly problematic for obvious reasons and you wouldnt accept any non-inferential justification either that doesn't align with your intuitions, so I don't know why you would expect others to accept your non-inferential justification where you just appeal to awakening and say "this is true ".

 

How do you reconcile disagreements when two people appeal to their awakening and they disagree? You don't, you assume that they are wrong and that you are right and they must be wrong about them having an awakening (but you have 0 way to check that other than pure speculation and an appeal to your own intuitions).

And of course, the baseline is that you take all the insights that you get in your awakenings to be all Infallible.

Edited May 17 by zurew

[Thought Art]

@Xonas Pitfall I want to say that sometimes I avoid reading your comments because of your signature and writing style. It's really overwhelming. You also put a lot of detail in your comments so I would like to read them but I sometimes don't because there is just so much going on.

Edited May 17 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

@Xonas Pitfall Solipsism makes all this a moot point though. If there is only one conscious all this talk of other being is a joke. 

So, all this logic seem useless. Except, to create a reality in which it appear to be such and such a way for some reason I can't recall.  

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Thought Art

7 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

But, I am having a limited experience and I don't experience infinite horror right now. So, there is still the question of the finite domain and what it includes or doesn't include. Like, you could say there are infinite aliens but I don't see one. It's not satisfiying.

Satisfying for what, though? It makes total sense that you're not experiencing infinity - you're a limited being. You can't experience the infinite if you're finite. That’s just basic logic. If I gave you a calculator that only does math up to 10, it’d be dumb to say, “Well, I'm only seeing results up to 10... where’s the rest of the numbers?”

You’re using a limited tool, so of course you’re getting limited output. Same thing here.

You can experience infinity - but only through mediums that allow for it. Your body isn’t one of them. Your body is super constrained - it can’t fly, it can’t run faster than Usain Bolt, etc. It’s built with limits. But your mind? That’s different. The mind is fluid, abstract, weird - way more flexible. It can touch infinity in ways the body never could.

You could imagine God as a kind of mind without a body - pure infinite awareness. No constraints. No filter. Just being, totally open. That’s what allows for infinity to be experienced in full.

4 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Xonas Pitfall I want to say that sometimes I avoid reading your comments because of your signature and image. It's really overwhelming. You also put a lot of detail in your comments so I would like to read them but I sometimes don't because there is just so much going on.

And noted - I’ll switch up my signature, hehe!

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Thought Art

5 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Xonas Pitfall Solipsism makes all this a moot point though. If there is only one conscious all this talk of other being is a joke. 

So, all this logic seem useless. Except, to create a reality in which it appear to be such and such a way for some reason I can't recall.  

How so? Solipsism just says there is only God - it doesn’t actually deny anything. In fact, for God to be truly infinite, He must include the finite. You can’t be infinite without including all limits. So the existence of finite agents isn’t a contradiction - it’s actually necessary for God to be God.

And once you have finite agents, you automatically get conflict - you get clashing wills, which leads to suffering. So really, it all circles right back to the original point: Solipsism - One - Only Infinity. Infinity includes everything, including the finite, and suffering comes as a direct result of that inclusion.

Let me know if I can explain that clearer or from a different angle!

Edited May 17 by Xonas Pitfall

[WikiRando]

The light and dark are equal. Humans are heavily focused on the dark side as a species.

But if light and dark are equal, for every breaking, there is an equal healing. For every horror, there is an equally powerful joy and harmony that ensure that horror never wins. In the big picture of course. You can still have many shitty lifetimes. But ultimately, no piece of reality can overpower another, and dark doesnt win over light. So when you ask "why all that crap" well, the because the crap is not the full picture. It's just half the picture. Crap exists in balance with light, joy, healing, reconciliation, renewal. The rotting butt raped corpse decomposes and becomes fertiliser for a beautiful majestic tree.

I say humans have a bias toward the dark because everyone wants to talk about the butt raped corpse not every leaf, tree, rock, or blade of grass. We are selecting, through pure arbitrariness, bits and pieces that we want to see, focus on, and talk about. There is no rule that says we should spend our time talking about each grain of sand or each tree one by one, analysing it the way we are analysing each person that was horrifically killed. It's only that talking about horrific situations and tortured entities serves our survival interests better in our quest for comfort and security.

But yeah, dont just believe me, find out for yourself.  

Edited May 17 by WikiRando

[integral]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

LOVE!

This life has the intelligence so I could “die” which I assume “exits” the dream.

If a dream is made where there is no exit then it becomes permanent and nothing else will ever be dreamed again? That seems like special treatment because then that one dream gets all the attention?

It’s like locking yourself in a cage with no escape and then you’ll never dream again. 

[Nemra]

@Leo Gura, so is God loving evil the highest form of love?

If so, then why would God also love lessening devilry at the same time?

Edited May 17 by Nemra

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, zurew said:

his nature includes all horror and evil scenarios and thats what explains the existence of evil and horror.

That's not deep enough. That misses LOVE.

[Thought Art]

From nothing to something 

this all feel arbitrary sorry 

[Oppositionless]

1 hour ago, WikiRando said:

The light and dark are equal. Humans are heavily focused on the dark side as a species.

But if light and dark are equal, for every breaking, there is an equal healing. For every horror, there is an equally powerful joy and harmony that ensure that horror never wins. In the big picture of course. You can still have many shitty lifetimes. 

 

But yeah, dont just believe me, find out for yourself.  

I struggle to understand why there should be suffering at all. I can think of two reasons 

1) Infinity is completely indscriminate and creates anything logically possible . if that is the case , I guess it's still God, but it feels like a very abstract mechanical God

2) Infinity is intentionally limited, implying God chooses to create evil. I fail to see how this is Love.

I've awakened to Consciousness but have never awakened to Love. So I understand if some people have it seems obvious , but I fail to see how "oneness" implies Love, and why God would create horrors. Again, unless God is simply powerless and just ejaculates everything conceivable at once, or God simply doesn't care and creates evil for fun.

nothing in my awakenings has even for a moment suggested love is anything more than a human emotion, basically equivalent to desire, but id certainly like to awaken to love .

Edited May 17 by Oppositionless

[gengar]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you knew the horror, you would never believe me.

What type of horror are you talking about? You're clearly implicating that you've seen something which we haven't. What specific horror are you talking about? And why are you so sure none of us would believe you? Why are you so sure again that you're the only one who went this deep into something? This must surely mean that you're talking about something outside of the scope of human existence again. Are you talking about salvia torture realms you've experienced or something?

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Humans have no clue how horrific life can get. This issue is way worse than you yet appreciate. The kind of horror that exists will make you never belief love exists. You've just been lucky to avoid that horror so far.

The seriousness of life cannot be overstated.

If us puny humans don't know about how horrific life can get (which is weird since you're talking about human life) - why do you, Leo, a fellow puny human, somehow have knowledge about such horrors? Or are you talking about stuff again that transcends the human experience? Transcendental horror?


 

[Thought Art]

@Xonas Pitfall To me solipsism suggest there is only one consciousness. Other beings are fabrications in that one consciousness. When you dream you don't think those other's exist right?

[gengar]

See, what Leo fails to realize about his own conclusions is that it doesn't go far enough.

Let's examine the two true statements that seem to follow out of absolute logic, and thus have to be reconciled with eachother:

- Reality is God and Love because it is all-embracing and has no outside, and ultimate Good

- God is everything, including infinite horror

Concluding that these statements are true, how do you not then realize that reconciling them is God's ultimate task and should be taken extremely seriously?

It makes sense that both are true, and that for God to be ultimately good, it must include all evil things in itself, or it would not be whole and good.
However, the inclusion of ultimate horror seems to contradict this goodness in itself, because a horrible thing by definition is not good - even though it is only an ego which deems it horrible - the ego's projection is absolute, the projection is what creates the thing and it's horribleness, and in the end there is no projection at all, since the ego is God, God is looking at it as a horrible thing and creating it as horrible experience by being the ego and being with the horrible. So you cannot use logic to escape the fact that it is in essence horrible, since the argument of "it's only a projection by the ego" doesn't exist in absolute logic, since all appearance and creation are one, the experience of a human being raped by an iron pick to death is not a projection, but absolute, and absolutely horrifying, since the experience of the pain, the ego's agony, and the "objective", "non-projected" experience of the pick, are one.

We've basically arrived at the problem of evil again, which Leo refuses to tackle, in my suspicion because of his arrogance (laughing at his forum members for not accepting infinite horror as being part of infinite love, instead of guiding them towards accepting it - again, this is God's hardest task, since it is the loving of the things most unlovable - it's easy to love sex and cake but hard to love pain and rape - Yet Leo laughs at his audience for struggling with it)

And where does it end? Does God ever conquer horror, or does he move in an experiential sine-wave from horror, to nothingness, to pleasure, and repeats this cycle forever? Is there any use in controlling our karma? If life is full of horror, why not kill yourself? Is there no honor in staying alive till natural death happens, no karmic reward for going through the suffering and not being a coward and killing yourself to avoid suffering?

See, Leo has no answer to these questions. No, instead of using his superior knowledge (which he claims is even deeper about suffering than ours, claiming we don't even have a clue about how much suffering there is in life, but he does) to guide his followers, teach us how to open our heart or something, give a strategy for God to transcend the horror, unimagine it, any karmic path at all - he does not. No, instead of that he points his finger and laughs in your face, and calls you a puny human for not realizing infinite horror was true in the first place.

The only conclusion I can make of it is that he has absolutely no clue how to deal with it himself. No clue how to cope or deal with this aspect of reality himself. And instead of admitting to that, he creates a shield of arrogance and superiority around himself, and loves to scare and blackpill you about horrors that we're not even aware of , but mighty Leo is.

This is Leo at his worst. How can you be like this. THE ENTIRE FUCKING ORDEAL IS COPING WITH ACCEPTING AND LOVING HORRIBLE THINGS. and you dismiss and laugh? You're a clown when you're like this.

Leo shows you reality and your own mind, through logic and investigation - yet does nothing when you arrive at the real premise, the reveal of the real ordeal of reality - dealing with infinite horror. No, he belittles you instead. Insane how someone can be of such high epistemological intelligence but have such a low spiritual intelligence, if those terms make sense. He gives objective truth but has now clue how the subjective should deal with it, and hides that fact by acting superiorly.

Leo, if you dismiss this criticism about the fact that this way that you're dealing with the problem of evil, i.e. where several hard truths conflict, and laugh and point at your audience, that they don't see it, that they are just coping, and you're the one capable of seeing the real horror, while we are just puny humans, if you dismiss my criticism it's very clear.

You lack the intelligence of the heart to deal with this shit and how to guide your humans. You reveal truth to them through guiding them through their own minds, yet have no, absolutely no clue on how to deal with it, what to do about it. This is God's imperative, this is God's quest. Conquering his own horror. Don't you have that imperative? Don't you have that intuition that even though horror is part of God, it will be defeated by Love because Love is greater, even though horror is also Love?

You lack the feminine spiritual intelligence. Masculine spiritual intelligence, the logic, the revelation, you are the greatest on earth with it. But what is next, you have no clue. You're like a baby in the crib when it comes to this branch of intelligence. You lack to even understand the question, the imperative, just like Daniel Schmachtenberger doesn't even understand the question of "what is reality".

THIS IS WHAT ITS ABOUT. THESE F**KING QUESTIONS AND POINTS ARE ACTUALIZED.ORG'S BLIND SPOT. EVERY SPIRITUAL TRADITION GIVES AN IMPERATIVE ON HOW TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM OF EVIL EXCEPT YOU.

Buddhism recognizes infinite horror, and gives cessation and nirvana (total release from samsara and thus horror) as an answer. And so does every other tradition. Why don't you? This seems like an "emperor with no clothes" moment. Have you really never thought of this? Do you not fucking care about this aspect of spirituality, even though you realize with open eyes that the horrors are endless? why not care about it then? I would understand an atheist since he doesn't believe in infinite horror, but deems all horror to end on the death of the body - horror is merely finite and ends forever on death. Do you simply not know how to cope with it yourself?

If you dismiss these questions again, or answer shortly or not to every point I've made, you have failed as a teacher and guide IMO, and I have no other choice but to conclude that your awakening is incomplete.



 

 

 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, gengar said:

What type of horror are you talking about?

Whatever horror you want to imagine.

1 hour ago, gengar said:

And why are you so sure none of us would believe you?

I said, you would not believe me that reality is Love.

1 hour ago, gengar said:

Why are you so sure again that you're the only one who went this deep into something?

I didn't say that.

1 hour ago, gengar said:

This must surely mean that you're talking about something outside of the scope of human existence again. 

Not necessarily. Human existence is horrific enough if you bother to really look into it.

Do you understand the horror of torture prisons in the Middle East?

You know of such things intellectually, but I'm talking about the horror of living it. If you lived through it, you would not be so open to reality being Love.

[Bjorn K Holmstrom]

Great video in many ways, I only disagree with the statement that idealism is more true than materialism. In my view, these are both just limited perspectives, the mystery of God is greater than both.