What are numbers

[Mixcoatl]

Been thinking about it

What is a number? where are they? are they an illusion?

is 1 apple 2 things when cut?

[Yimpa]

 

Edited yesterday at 12:03 AM by Yimpa

[Mixcoatl]

@Yimpa beautiful 

[Carl-Richard]

A letter or word corresponding to something you can count (a quantity) which often exists in relationship to a system of letters or words (a number system) that can be used to make "sentences" about quantities (calculations).

Edited yesterday at 02:47 AM by Carl-Richard

[Reciprocality]

Units representing a generalised idea derived from the real distinction between experienced things occurred spontaneously due to how the ability to identify things presupposes the agency sufficient to hold that identity independently of the thing that bears it.

[Carl-Richard]

22 minutes ago, Reciprocality said:

Units representing a generalised idea derived from the real distinction between experienced things occurred spontaneously due to how the ability to identify things presupposes the agency sufficient to hold that identity independently of the thing that bears it.

We'll divide this sentence into three sentences and we'll see if you yourself can understand it:

• Numbers are units representing a generalised idea derived from the real distinction between experienced things.
• These occur spontaneously due to how the ability to identify things presupposes an agency.
• The agency holds that identity independently of the thing that bears it.

The first sentence is ok but can apply to many things, not just numbers. The last two, what the fuck.

Edited yesterday at 03:34 AM by Carl-Richard

[Mixcoatl]

@Reciprocality The agency that holds the number is a mind, I understand.

I'ts very abstract the idea! thanks

[Mixcoatl]

30 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The first sentence is ok but can apply to many things, not just numbers. The last two, what the fuck.

Yes, wtf!! I can't fully grasp it!

[Reciprocality]

@Carl-Richard  If that which were true of numbers at a basic level were not true of "many things" then we would have a hard time explaining why numbers can apply to all kinds of things.

When we do nothing about the distinction between two things (which I take to be what you meant as applying to many things) except generalise that they are distinct we create a unitary system, since in the concept of a distinction we find the concept of 1 and 2, you could not both have a distinction and the ability to identify it in the sequential order in which you do it without creating the meaning of the concept of 1 and 2, whether or not you represent that concept with symbols.

 

Edited yesterday at 04:18 AM by Reciprocality

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

We'll divide this sentence into three sentences

Number is division.

[Reciprocality]

If nothing besides the distinction between two concrete things happened then they would not be identified, numbers presupposes identity thus whatever is required for something to be identified is also required for something to be a number. Sufficient agency is such a sufficient condition.

[Reciprocality]

53 minutes ago, Mixcoatl said:

@Reciprocality The agency that holds the number is a mind, I understand.

I'ts very abstract the idea! thanks

@Mixcoatl 

Sure, although agency emphasises a tendency our minds have, a tendency that relates more to your question than merely a mind in general does, it could be conceivable for instance that minds could be without agency, at least they are conceptually different. The agency of minds would not mean much without their interaction with environments, the environment contains the distinctions that minds with sufficient agency are able to identify, and when they do they can conceive of those distinctions merely in their mind, and when they do this these distinctions will be employed even on distinctions they did not initially derive from and be employed onto themselves (nothing shackles them to any particular situation), this happens spontaneously (no premeditation required) and it gives rise to many beautiful things, among which are what we call numbers.

Edited yesterday at 04:58 AM by Reciprocality

[AION]

Numbers are structure. It is the language of the gods. 1 became 2 and then more. 

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

We'll divide this sentence into three sentences

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Number is division.

On 4/15/2025 at 11:39 PM, Yimpa said:

 

[Yimpa]

41 minutes ago, AION said:

1 became 2 and then

On 4/16/2025 at 4:00 PM, Yimpa said:

 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:32 AM by Yimpa

[LastThursday]

There is a difference between the idea of a number and the representation of a number.

The representation uses a finite set of discrete symbols in different combinations to map on to different numbers. That means you can have different number bases: decimal, binary, hexadecimal etc. But you could use Roman numerals, Mayan counting, algebraic notation and just about a million other ways.

Mathematics also has negative numbers, fractional numbers, irrational numbers, complex numbers and a whole slew of more weird numbers. But you could call all those constructed or composite numbers in some way.

If you're talking about positive integers (most people's idea of a number), then people can instantly recognise up to three things without counting, beyond that requires either counting or estimation. 

Mathematicians define numbers using set theory and a kind of recursive procedure of embedding an empty set into another empty set. This guy explains it well:

Although I find it unsatisfactory, because it doesn't really explain anything, other than mapping numbers onto a tree structure.

Nerd over and out.

[gettoefl]

10 means 10 more or less identical somethings; so instead let's just call it 10, but remember the something where necessary

[Reciprocality]

12 hours ago, gettoefl said:

10 means 10 more or less identical somethings; so instead let's just call it 10, but remember the something where necessary

@gettoefl Doesn't "identical" and "something" correspond to "invariant" and "variant"?

If so then do you mean to say that 10 means "any varied set of 10 invariant elements"?

 

Are there several of those sets, or is there only the one set of 10 invariant elements, and is it numbers? If so then where does the variance or "something" come from? If the variance comes from the entities that satisfies the number 10 (10 invariant elements/units) then why introduce the concept of identity among those 10? Are you saying that there is something about any 10 elements that is identical/invariant, but merely that about them that satisfies the criterion of a unit, although they are not identical in any other respect?

If so then would it be accurate to say that numbers are the only viable thing that satisfies what they satisfy, that nothing could replace them, if so what is the general criterion that we can employ to determine whether other entities also are uniquely applicable, both necessary and sufficient?

[Yimpa]

 

[Princess Arabia]

This thread is for the weirdos. Lol