The problem of not knowing and acting on the relative world

[Mu_]

@Someone here Long time no see.  Sorry to hear your having a hard time with all of this.  I'm struggling a lot these days to.  I'm not sure there is an easy answer to your issue, but two things came to mind that have shifted things for me in the past.  One is a silly Indian fable some guru told his student.

A monkey climbed up a tree to get a banana, as he climbed to the top of the tree, he slipped and fell.  He never got the banana, and died that day.

Thats it.  Some stories end like that.

My sense is your at odds with dying and pain.  You also have a concept that its all meaningless because of this, and why would it be like this.  

Really become okay with this natural fact, AND take care of your ordinary life despite it could end and become painful any moment.  Just stop being held back by this notion.  Really acknowledge this if its true or not.  

Wish you well.

[Inliytened1]

17 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

@Someone here Long time no see.  Sorry to hear your having a hard time with all of this.  I'm struggling a lot these days to.  I'm not sure there is an easy answer to your issue, but two things came to mind that have shifted things for me in the past.  One is a silly Indian fable some guru told his student.

A monkey climbed up a tree to get a banana, as he climbed to the top of the tree, he slipped and fell.  He never got the banana, and died that day.

Thats it.  Some stories end like that.

My sense is your at odds with dying and pain.  You also have a concept that its all meaningless because of this, and why would it be like this.  

Really become okay with this natural fact, AND take care of your ordinary life despite it could end and become painful any moment.  Just stop being held back by this notion.  Really acknowledge this if its true or not.  

Wish you well.

I think this feeds into his notions of meaninglessness.  Might not be the best therapy.  But i think he just rejects facing life.  Face it as an adult or not.  Just because he has the knowledge of Absolute Truth over all the ignorant millionaire or billionaire fools out there doesnt give him an exit card.  It should give him the secret weapon...but this is the only life he will have so he might as well make the best of it. 

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:52 AM by Inliytened1

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I care for my dying grandmother. I work a full time, demanding and stressful job managing construction sites - not just any construction sites either. State & Federal work in science and medicine. Mental health lockdown wards, entire pathology departments, ICU airlock isolation rooms. MRI rooms. Synchrotron work. The real deal where you ensure 100% and standards are the strictest in the field. Angry fuckers constantly. Deadlines, lead times, logistics, inclement weather, budgets blowing out etc you get the picture.

I have a dog, I run 8kms 3x a week. I cook all my own meals from scratch (and the dogs). I weight train. I read books, I spend time with my family (oldest of 5 siblings). I babysit for my nephew. I still practice art & I meditate 30 minutes, twice a day. I live alone and pay my way, keep my shit in order and clean. 8 hours sleep - no negotiation. No processed food. Water. Tea. (gotta admit coffee is my shithead mode)

I don't think about what I want to get out of life. I don't think about whether something will work out. I don't worry about what 'to do'. Life has endless things to do, I just pick one. I don't really think on if I 'dislike' a task. That will stop me doing it. I have preference for different tasks. But I don't dislike anything. Even cleaning up dogshit. As soon as I engage a thought or emotion about a task, I stop it by moving to act on it. If I cannot act on it in the moment, I plan the steps and see myself doing it. I go into full imaginary mode so intensely the feeling of accomplishment and the thoughts are as if I have done it. So when the time comes, all I do is the act and can sever all thought,

If you don't take action in life, life is going to take action on you - and you aren't going to like it. 

You just go in and do your best to influence things correctly. Who knows what the fuck is gonna' happen? You are here, alive. You are already committed - you can't try to half arse it with one toe in wondering how the rest of the ocean is.

And when you do all this shit, you simply laugh at the absurdity of it all - because your questions could be true. This is probably an illusion. A game. A play. When you are laughing at these bizarre emotional reactions and negative experiences and mistakes - this is when you know you are doing it right.

You walk around perceiving all this, experiencing. You acknowledge yourself moving in life with spiritual/conceptual cataracts over your iris, because you never see anything correctly anyway. 

Everything you do in reality, in the physical realm, brings you closer to your 'being' state. You seem to already have mastered this thinking shit. That contemplation with the 'being' state is where you need to move to. That's where you remove all the unnecessary stuff and empty. Empty it all out. You are way too full at this present time.

This mind thing you are doing - you have to get to the point you realise you are DOING it. You are paralyzing yourself with concepts. You are doing this. 

Engage.

This is the only advice I have.

[Carl-Richard]

On 30.6.2025 at 10:08 PM, Someone here said:

Then you start to get intrusive thoughts : what if I die ? What if i end in hell burning in eternal fire and god will stick his cock into my ass for eternity..? What if what if what if ..there is millions of them . So what does the modern person do? He smokes ..he drinks ..he eats junk..he watches 90000 hours of pornography and cums 200000 times ..he try drugs ..he suicides and dies . Where did he go ? Nobody knows.  Why was he born in the first place if he was going to die ?  Nobody knows .Old souls start thinking there must be something to solve this madness. What is it ? If you can tell it to me and convince me I will cut my balls off .

If you want to take a reductionistic evolutionary lens, you were given the ability to think abstractly ("have intrusive thoughts") in order to plan, predict and simulate movements, actions and events, such that you can create better movements, actions and events. It's not like thinking is this completely separate and isolated thing that occurs on its own without any ground. It spawned and branched out of an underlying foundation, of organisms moving out and about in their environment. Also, in your brain, your abstract thinking areas (the prefrontal areas) literally grows out of the motor areas (the precentral gyrus).

So to "solve" the problem of abstract thinking is just to use them as intended — to guide and inform your actions. And that requires you to ACT (both as in "act" but also as in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy). If you were a tribesman living in the wild and you woke up and started your day, your thoughts would be "how can I chop this tree?" or "what footprints are these and which animal should I be expecting?". The thoughts are grounded in action, and necessarily so, because they are forced to survive. But when your survival is taken care of, you have to rediscover this purpose of thought in order to ground it.

Edited Wednesday at 11:56 AM by Carl-Richard

[Someone here]

On 09/07/2025 at 2:41 PM, Carl-Richard said:

If you want to take a reductionistic evolutionary lens, you were given the ability to think abstractly ("have intrusive thoughts") in order to plan, predict and simulate movements, actions and events, such that you can create better movements, actions and events. It's not like thinking is this completely separate and isolated thing that occurs on its own without any ground. It spawned and branched out of an underlying foundation, of organisms moving out and about in their environment. Also, in your brain, your abstract thinking areas (the prefrontal areas) literally grows out of the motor areas (the precentral gyrus).

So to "solve" the problem of abstract thinking is just to use them as intended — to guide and inform your actions. And that requires you to ACT (both as in "act" but also as in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy). If you were a tribesman living in the wild and you woke up and started your day, your thoughts would be "how can I chop this tree?" or "what footprints are these and which animal should I be expecting?". The thoughts are grounded in action, and necessarily so, because they are forced to survive. But when your survival is taken care of, you have to rediscover this purpose of thought in order to ground it.

Okay assuming you are correct here ..my life is I wake up at 7 AM..take a shower..go to college..listen to my Boring lectures..go back home around 3 PM. Eat lunch . Open this forum posting noise. Relax in my bedroom with a cigarette and coffee. Watch porn or horror movies all night and sleep at 1 AM. That's my daily routine .it's so disconnected from brutality of survival as a jungle man.  Suggest to me challenging things I can engage in with. Thanks. 

[Someone here]

On 09/07/2025 at 4:52 AM, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I care for my dying grandmother. I work a full time, demanding and stressful job managing construction sites - not just any construction sites either. State & Federal work in science and medicine. Mental health lockdown wards, entire pathology departments, ICU airlock isolation rooms. MRI rooms. Synchrotron work. The real deal where you ensure 100% and standards are the strictest in the field. Angry fuckers constantly. Deadlines, lead times, logistics, inclement weather, budgets blowing out etc you get the picture.

I have a dog, I run 8kms 3x a week. I cook all my own meals from scratch (and the dogs). I weight train. I read books, I spend time with my family (oldest of 5 siblings). I babysit for my nephew. I still practice art & I meditate 30 minutes, twice a day. I live alone and pay my way, keep my shit in order and clean. 8 hours sleep - no negotiation. No processed food. Water. Tea. (gotta admit coffee is my shithead mode)

I don't think about what I want to get out of life. I don't think about whether something will work out. I don't worry about what 'to do'. Life has endless things to do, I just pick one. I don't really think on if I 'dislike' a task. That will stop me doing it. I have preference for different tasks. But I don't dislike anything. Even cleaning up dogshit. As soon as I engage a thought or emotion about a task, I stop it by moving to act on it. If I cannot act on it in the moment, I plan the steps and see myself doing it. I go into full imaginary mode so intensely the feeling of accomplishment and the thoughts are as if I have done it. So when the time comes, all I do is the act and can sever all thought,

If you don't take action in life, life is going to take action on you - and you aren't going to like it. 

You just go in and do your best to influence things correctly. Who knows what the fuck is gonna' happen? You are here, alive. You are already committed - you can't try to half arse it with one toe in wondering how the rest of the ocean is.

And when you do all this shit, you simply laugh at the absurdity of it all - because your questions could be true. This is probably an illusion. A game. A play. When you are laughing at these bizarre emotional reactions and negative experiences and mistakes - this is when you know you are doing it right.

You walk around perceiving all this, experiencing. You acknowledge yourself moving in life with spiritual/conceptual cataracts over your iris, because you never see anything correctly anyway. 

Everything you do in reality, in the physical realm, brings you closer to your 'being' state. You seem to already have mastered this thinking shit. That contemplation with the 'being' state is where you need to move to. That's where you remove all the unnecessary stuff and empty. Empty it all out. You are way too full at this present time.

This mind thing you are doing - you have to get to the point you realise you are DOING it. You are paralyzing yourself with concepts. You are doing this. 

Engage.

This is the only advice I have.

Holy crap girl that was rough 😬

[Someone here]

On 09/07/2025 at 3:34 AM, Mu_ said:

My sense is your at odds with dying and pain.  

No shit sherlock. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Someone here

If I can handle my current chaos - you can do it. You can take your spiritual practice seriously while doing so, but I think you have traversed that path so well, engaging is the next step 😀

You get thrown into the washing machine of life with a bunch of bricks in there. It's teetering on ripping itself to pieces - every new brick makes it worse. But every new brick is preparing you for the next bigger brick. 

You think another one will break you, but it's really showing you your capacity.

And that capacity? It has no limit 💜 

Now time to learn your capacity 

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Okay assuming you are correct here ..my life is I wake up at 7 AM..take a shower..go to college..listen to my Boring lectures..go back home around 3 PM. Eat lunch . Open this forum posting noise. Relax in my bedroom with a cigarette and coffee. Watch porn or horror movies all night and sleep at 1 AM. That's my daily routine .it's so disconnected from brutality of survival as a jungle man.  Suggest to me challenging things I can engage in with. Thanks. 

If you're not going to spend that time after 3 PM reading for your degree: build something, do something that has a "narrative" or which grows, not something which cycles through the same low attention span things primarily driven by impulse. For example, I had a very awesome idea for a business for passive income (true in theory but probably not in practice because I can't stop tweaking things) that I will start setting up next weekend. And when I have time, I will play some guitar. Me personally, I work with my thesis all the time (except one day a week). And soon I will work a job next to that when I'm close to finished. If you get to a place where you feel there is not enough time in the day, that's probably a good measure (but then learn to schedule time off so you don't die of over-exhaustion or burnout).

Edited Thursday at 07:53 PM by Carl-Richard

[Someone here]

@Natasha Tori Maru great stuff thanks .

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

If you're not going to spend that time after 3 PM reading for your degree: build something, do something that has a "narrative" or which grows, not something which cycles through the same low attention span things primarily driven by impulse. For example, I had a very awesome idea for a business for passive income (true in theory but probably not in practice because I can't stop tweaking things) that I will start setting up next weekend. And when I have time, I will play some guitar. Me personally, I work with my thesis all the time (except one day a week). And soon I will work a job next to that when I'm close to finished. If you get to a place where you feel there is not enough time in the day, that's probably a good measure (but then learn to schedule time off so you don't die of over-exhaustion or burnout).

I have few options..there is not much stuff going on in my life at the moment.  In my off days from college I lift dumbbells and sunbath in the beach or watch Leo's videos. Sometimes I meet with my young brother and we go to the zoo . 

The general advice though again is get busy in daily activities instead of sitting on your butt all day and you will not have time for these kind of lofty philosophy and silly thoughts ? Right ?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Someone here

I personally think yes - but you need to stress your system.

Find a task to push you to your capacity - something that gives you mild anxiety to do. Choosing to do it, being complicit, will prevent the task being a chore.

It should be something new.

I think it might be helpful to remember, this period of life you are in now where you are 'floating' so to speak - it is serving a purpose. It is teaching you something. 

It is not time wasted. There is something being achieved internally, progress to something. Reaching out on the forum is communicating this.

Shit can get real very quick.

Edited Thursday at 11:19 PM by Natasha Tori Maru
Editing to add: READ THAT RALSTON BOOK

[Someone here]

4 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Someone here

I personally think yes - but you need to stress your system.

Find a task to push you to your capacity - something that gives you mild anxiety to do. Choosing to do it, being complicit, will prevent the task being a chore.

It should be something new.

I think it might be helpful to remember, this period of life you are in now where you are 'floating' so to speak - it is serving a purpose. It is teaching you something. 

It is not time wasted. There is something being achieved internally, progress to something. Reaching out on the forum is communicating this.

Shit can get real very quick.

OK will read the book that's for starters. 

You are the only one in this thread who is actually supporting me and showing empathy to my situation even though it might sound silly for most people who aren't going through what I'm going through or can't relate . I mean the post is one year ago and theres like 6k views 😂..so people read OP and They think "you don't know if Santa claus exists or not but what has that got to do with execution on practical stuff like studying and working ?!". And I explained that no matter what I say I can't describe it accurately .you either understand what I'm saying because you are going through it or you don't because you are not . So I'm curious..are you going through something similar? 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

OK will read the book that's for starters. 

You are the only one in this thread who is actually supporting me and showing empathy to my situation even though it might sound silly for most people who aren't going through what I'm going through or can't relate . I mean the post is one year ago and theres like 6k views 😂..so people read OP and They think "you don't know if Santa claus exists or not but what has that got to do with execution on practical stuff like studying and working ?!". And I explained that no matter what I say I can't describe it accurately .you either understand what I'm saying because you are going through it or you don't because you are not . So I'm curious..are you going through something similar? 

I have been through it. And not just once.

I think this could be why my words are hitting?

I went through a period of realising that the thoughts about where to go, how to apply myself, what to do - they were concepts. Beliefs. Stories about the future. I realised the future is a belief, a concept. It's not real. I cannot touch it. Same with the past. It's not real, it isn't in existence. Past/future - concepts/beliefs. You have to realise you are the one doing that. You are creating these concepts & beliefs. You do it because you were trained too from a small child. Once you know this, you let the concepts go. They don't serve you at all. At all

The table I sit at right now, the light from the computer entering my retinas, the fucking dropsaw out the front. That is real. Only this is happening. Because I have no idea what the future actually IS (ie it's not the reality I exist in in this present moment) - all I can do is perform some tasks now to try to influence what might happen in that 'concept'. I feel I am hopeless communicating this. But in essence - we know nothing true about the past or future. The only thing true is now, which is why you jump into the present with movement and catalyse a potential.

I had to fundamentally realise I actually know nothing at all.

Mystery and awe then enters reality.

Consciousness naturally expands.

And in such a way, that you realise its expansion is growing to encapsulate more than your little meat sac. It is growing and merging with things around you - and your ability to influence those things becomes a reality because your consciousness now encapsulates that. And it keeps going and going. And it never ends.

But the first step is to begin to move and sink into the physical aspects of reality. Pure execution and less thinking did this for me.

My dog, my running practice. Hiking in ice and rain. Cold showers. 

Engaging in movement appears to change my state, and while you contemplate that you know nothing - no future, no past - that's the spot.

That's when you hit truth.

And it acts to motivate you to go further.

Because you realise what you found shows you that you know nothing - and now you want to dig at that shit HARD and see what else there is to see

Edited yesterday at 01:10 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

The general advice though again is get busy in daily activities instead of sitting on your butt all day and you will not have time for these kind of lofty philosophy and silly thoughts ? Right ?

You can have lofty philosophical ideas. Just use them for something.

Edited yesterday at 01:12 AM by Carl-Richard

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I have been through it. And not just once.

I think this could be why my words are hitting?

I went through a period of realising that the thoughts about where to go, how to apply myself, what to do - they were concepts. Beliefs. Stories about the future. I realised the future is a belief, a concept. It's not real. I cannot touch it. Same with the past. It's not real, it isn't in existence. Past/future - concepts/beliefs. 

The table I sit at right now, the light from the computer entering my retinas, the fucking dropsaw out the front. That is real. Only this is happening. Because I have no idea what the future actually IS (ie it's not the reality I exist in in this present moment) - all I can do is perform some tasks now to try to influence what might happen in that 'concept'. I feel I am hopeless communicating this. But in essence - we know nothing true about the past or future. The only thing true is now, which is why you jump into the present with movement and catalyse a potential.

I had to fundamentally realise I actually know nothing at all.

Mystery and awe then enters reality.

Consciousness naturally expands.

And in such a way, that you realise its expansion is growing to encapsulate more than your little meat sac. It is growing and merging with things around you - and your ability to influence those things becomes a reality because your consciousness now encapsulates that. And it keeps going and going. And it never ends.

But the first step is to begin to move and sink into the physical aspects of reality. Pure execution and less thinking did this for me.

My dog, my running practice. Hiking in ice and rain. Cold showers. 

Engaging in movement appears to change my state, and while you contemplate that you know nothing - no future, no past - that's the spot.

That's when you hit truth.

And it acts to motivate you to go further.

Because you realise what you found shows you that you know nothing - and now you want to dig at that shit HARD and see what else there is to see

Totally relate. But you are being way too generous when you say we only know the present moment..because go ahead and explain what is happening now 😂.

Anyways... are you saying as long as you're dreaming a reality you have to play by the rules of that reality .  I don't think this will ever stop.  I have read a comment on the forum recently saying that the ultimate goal to spiritual work is Mahasamdhi or cessation. But if so ..then why  did "God" (which is simply you in the ultimate analysis) Decide to "click the play button" to begin with?  You were an absolutely perfectly formeless singularity (even science affirms this ontological principle of the big bang was a singularity)..why did you decide to engage in the world of form to begin with if your goal is to be formelessness?  If your goal was to really abide in a formless state forever you wouldn't have incarnated into a form in the first place. 

41 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You can have lofty philosophical ideas. Just use them for something.

Like what ? I literally have no long term goals in life so let's be real here for a moment you are never going to become actually enlightened by being in this forum .

[theleelajoker]

Why did God press the play button?

For me, it comes down to three possibilities:

1. Choice: You want things to be the way they are. You want to experience everything exactly the way it is. Which, in a funny way,also includes asking why the play button has been pressed at all + not having long term goals as you do now:)
2. There is no other choice 
3. A paradoxical "both, 1+2" that is a fuck up for human minds 🤣

Anyone seeing other possibilities?

Edited yesterday at 02:43 AM by theleelajoker

[James123]

4 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Anyone seeing other possibilities?

Just to experience love. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

 You were an absolutely perfectly formeless singularity (even science affirms this ontological principle of the big bang was a singularity)..why did you decide to engage in the world of form to begin with if your goal is to be formelessness? 

For this one - the goal isn't formlessness per se. I view it as 'self-lessness'. Erase the self. Being is the goal.

Your self is defined by all these ideas, concepts, attachments. Those have to go. And for them to fuck off you have to realise you are doing it. Having the idea. Having the concept. Having the attachments. That is all something you are doing - and you do have the ability to stop. Realising you are doing it is the hardest bit - but when you do... BANG

Lift off the layer of self - behind? Pure being. That's where you want to be

Just being, in the moment. Engaged with your body. Sink in. The body is the key because if you expand consciousness from there you merge with reality. And when that happens you realise you are nothing but consciousness. You are connected to, can influence, can guide, can change, all. 

Consciousness.

The question of why did God choose this? You chose this. And the reason why? You are experiencing the reason right now. You are semi-stuck. Immobilised. In this grey soup of boredom. Nothing has joy, no excitement. If you knew everything, every outcome... everyone's thoughts... imagine the horror of that. No surpize. No awe. No truth to seek. No mystery. The burden of all knowing. Just the endless planes of existence you know better than the shape of your hand.

God is your mirror.

 

Edited yesterday at 03:27 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[theleelajoker]

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

For this one - the goal isn't formlessness per se. I view it as 'self-lessness'. Erase the self. Being is the goal.

Your self is defined by all these ideas, concepts, attachments. Those have to go. And for them to fuck off you have to realise you are doing it. Having the idea. Having the concept. Having the attachments. That is all something you are doing - and you do have the ability to stop. Realising you are doing it is the hardest bit - but when you do... BANG

Lift off the layer of self - behind? Pure being. That's where you want to be

Just being, in the moment. Engaged with your body. Sink in. The body is the key because if you expand consciousness from there you merge with reality. And when that happens you realise you are nothing but consciousness. You are connected to, can influence, can guide, can change, all. 

Consciousness.

The question of why did God choose this? You chose this. And the reason why? You are experiencing the reason right now. You are semi-stuck. Immobilised. In this grey soup of boredom. Nothing has joy, no excitement. If you knew everything, every outcome... everyone's thoughts... imagine the horror of that. No surpize. No awe. No truth to seek. No mystery. The burden of all knowing. Just the endless planes of existence you know better than the shape of your hand.

God is your mirror.

 

I agree in general. Being> concept.

But is the idea of God, how you describe him - boredom, immobilized etc - not a concept itself, the very thing you recommend to drop?

4 hours ago, James123 said:

Just to experience love. 

This would still be No 1, wouldn't it? 

 

[James123]

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

I agree in general. Being> concept.

But is the idea of God, how you describe him - boredom, immobilized etc - not a concept itself, the very thing you recommend to drop?

This would still be No 1, wouldn't it? 

 

İf love felt only even a second, there will be no other reasons.