ivankiss

There cannot be more or less consciousness

177 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, DJ Comaschi said:

No.

there are infinite types of waves in the ocean but water (consciousness) is the only thing that exists.

and you may say: but it’s not infinite because then it couldn’t be lava!

you don’t understand, even lava is just water. Can you see the tricky analogy? What you consider lava (something you consider other than consciousness) is just another “wave” that is made out of water (consciousness)

that’s because:

consciousness = absolute infinity

I don't know what the "no" suppose to respond to there.

I already addressed your point in my earlier reply to the other guy , where I predicted that some of you guys will go with the "you just imagine that there is anything other than consciousness". here:

7 hours ago, zurew said:

For the sake of understanding I will try to make a difference between existential limitation and  imagination (yes I know under what you talk about, consciousness can imagine up even existential limitations). So if I grant all the things that you said in that case, we can create scenarios where I imagine that consciousness is not the only thing that exists and we can create infinite different scenarios of this, where I imagine the Absolute or the ground to be different from consciousness. Yes I can grant that all of that is possible under the notion that only consciousness exists. Consciousness can imagine infinite different worlds with infinite different laws and with infinte different relative truths. However that whole notion is existentially limited to consciousness, because the claim is that thats the only actual thing thats real and everything else is just imagined. 

So there is a difference between being able to imagine non-absolute or in other words, being able to imagine infinite different grounds for existence vs creating worlds that actually existentially different from each other. Im not talking about imagining that those lines between those worlds exist, I mean that they actually  different ontologically, meaning different on the being level. In other words, they cannot be traced back to consciousness, they are actually built ontologically different from each other.

In the 'consciousness is the only thing that exists' things being ontologically other than consciousness is impossible - and thats an existential limitation.

...

But my main point wasn't to necessarily disagree with the premise that "consciousness is all there is" my main point was to point out the existential limitation that comes with it. Acknowledge that limitation and use the word 'limitless" more carefully.

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1 hour ago, Mu_ said:

"Ground" is a interesting idea, which in my experience can reveal as you seem to be arguing along the lines of as perhaps having unfounded connotations.  However even dropping such connotations one can still come to a recognition that for lack of better analogies or ways of communicating is a fundamental ".....something or other.....", not something of matter, and not something "not of matter", not a static experience of some sort, but a knowledge you could say, that is fundamental.  It doesn't reveal all possibilities of whats possible to experience and take place (although stuff like that may be one of the possible experiences of this mystery) , and doesn't necessarily reveal anything that appears or feels to be useful to do something with, but it does reveal a foundational mystery of life in a unique way and that everything is "that" and yet "that" is truly undefinable or knowable like we generally think things can be known, even though there may always be a felt attempt to try and know fully. Perhaps its the un-itchable itch, that this mystery just can't Self-scratch......

Im not really understanding what you are trying to convey. But as long as we agree on the existential limitation point, I have nothing else to argue about right now.

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2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Precisely!  However, Leo still thinks that you can become more and more omnisic

 

I guess that he thinks that he can deepen more and more in himself, and that's true, but everything that appears are manifestations of the same existence, then there is just one omniscience, when you really know that you are, totally. Nothing more can be known, that's everything. Then infinite manifestations of that fact can be observed, but as they are infinite, it's the same two or 3 billions, they are, and that's it

 

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I guess that he thinks that he can deepen more and more in himself, and that's true, but everything that appears are manifestations of the same existence, then there is just one omniscience, when you really know that you are, totally. Nothing more can be known, that's everything. Then infinite manifestations of that fact can be observed, but as they are infinite, it's the same two or 3 billions, they are, and that's it

 

Sorry for the spelling errors up there- I have since corrected it.  I  know my grammar is atrocious because I type on a little phone.  Anyways - have you not learned or gleaned anything from AI here?  Have you not learned that Infinity is simply paradoxical in nature?  Yes - it is the Absolute.   But also you can still become more and more of it - it is - dynamic and ever expanding.   So while you are correct, your answer is also incomplete.   For you forgo the very definition of Infinity - which is to always be something more.  But also - to not be.  You will not find logic here.  So don't attempt to. 

Edited by Inliytened1

 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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41 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

For you forgo the very definition of Infinity - which is to always be something more. 

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

 

It's always something more, but it's always the same: existence. Then, the appearances could be infinite, but they are just existence.

Enlightenment is when you are one with the truth: i am. Existence exist, and you are that. Everything else are just aspects of that fact. 

Be one with the truth is not knowing it in a logical way, but be totally open to that reality full time. Then you know what you are: the existence. It's quite simple but arriving there is difficult, the mind closes it giving meaning to everything, and meaning is imaginary, maya. 

Then you can perceive yourself as the total depth from life with all its complexity springs, but that's the same, just existence 

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Posted (edited)

18 hours ago, zurew said:

In the 'consciousness is the only thing that exists' things being ontologically other than consciousness is impossible - and thats an existential limitation.

It's not an existential limitation because it is imagination. Your imagination can't limit anything existentially. Your imagination is itself something that exists. Existence can't limit itself through non-existence. Non-existence is not something that actually exists, by definition. 

Its like asking "why isn't the word donkey actually a donkey?" Because then it wouldn't be a word anymore, it would be a donkey. In order for a word to exist as a word, it can't be an actual donkey. In order for impossibility to exist as impossibility, it can't be possible. Again, you're stuck in this intellectual catch-22. You can't find proof because proof can never be the thing that is being proved. There is no proof for imagination outside of imagination. The entire thing is imaginary. When it becomes something that isn't imagination, it becomes possible, and so it isn't impossible. And so you continue to ask "why doesn't imagination exist as something that isn't imagination?"

18 hours ago, zurew said:

That would also paradoxically be an existential limitation, that impossibility can only be imagined and that it can't actually exist.

It "doesn't exist" in the sense that the contents of imagination don't exist as something outside of imagination. Meaning, imagination is never not imagination.

It's not that impossibility can only be imagined, it's that impossibility is always imagination and it can't not be imagination. When you say "it can't actually exist", you are expecting imagination to be something which isn't imagination, and then perceiving that as non-existence.

There can't be a thing that actually "can't exist." You have to imagine that first. Thus it only exists as imagination. Imagination does exist, it just can't point to anything that exists outside of itself. 

Even if everything did exist, you would still imagine impossibility, because imagination still exists. This further elaborates on the catch-22 I was talking about earlier.

It's like looking at "1 + 1 = 3" and then going "how come I can't find any proof for it"? Because it is defined in a way where you can't find proof for it. It is a thing without proof, by definition. If it has proof, then it stops being that thing. You can only ask questions about it but the questions can't have an answer because that is how it defines itself. It only exists as a question. It is intellectual stagnation. 

Edited by Osaid

"God is not a conclusion, it is a sudden revelation. When you see a rose it is not that you go through a logical solipsism, "This is a rose, and roses are beautiful, so this must be beautiful." The moment you see it, the head stops spinning thoughts. On the contrary, your heart starts beating faster. It is something totally different from the idea of truth." -Osho

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Mu_ said:

However there are no kangaroos becoming aware nor aliens nor humans, only god experiencing and sometimes it has the experience to itself of something refered to by itself (not necessarily by its own volition, nor how I'm talking about it is the only way to say it or point to what I'm conveying) as human climbing a tree, dog wagging its tale, monkey getting squished by a steamroller, planet giving birth to species, alien waking up to god.  And none of these experiences are more total, more enlightened, better that the others, none of them are "the point" or "not the point" of the existence, none of them are bad or good along some "real" objective reality, allowed or not allowed.... 

 agree in that the level of consciousness of a angry drunk hooligan destroying things because his team has lost, or Buddha in mystical extasy is the same in the sense of existence: total consciousness. Because conciousness means existence. There is not existence if it's not consciousness of the existence, and both, the hooligan and Buddha fully exist. But there is a difference, the level of perception. The hooligan has a wall in front of him, his perception is flat, superficial. Buddha has not a wall, his perception is deep, in fact is total depth, because there are not obstacles for him . Both exist, and their level of existence is the same , total level, but their level of perception of what they are is very different , then you could call this level of consciousness 

Edited by Breakingthewall

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I agree that duality is imaginary, but that does not make it false. Imaginary does not equal false, the imaginary describes a reality, in fact that is its function. reality moves and duality maps its movement. If there were no movement, there could be no imagination.

It is not the imagination that creates the movement, but the movement that creates the imagination, then, as there is a movement in the breadth and depth of perception, there is an idea, imagination, duality, of the levels of perception. 

It is "false" in the sense that you can't ever be what the imagination points to, because every single thing it points to is divided and limited.

You can't imagine something which is not a thing. You can't imagine nothing, otherwise it stops being imagination. Meaning, you can't imagine something which is not limited by another thing, otherwise it stops being imagination. A thing is always limited by other things because it is relative. Which means you can't ever be dual or limited, because you are the one imagining. 

You are imagining, but you aren't imagining yourself. If you imagine yourself, that splits you into two: the one imagining and the one that is being imagined. It creates a recursion error. You have created an imagination which tries to point to experience, but that imagination has to be part of experience. You can't use yourself to point to yourself.

Edited by Osaid

"God is not a conclusion, it is a sudden revelation. When you see a rose it is not that you go through a logical solipsism, "This is a rose, and roses are beautiful, so this must be beautiful." The moment you see it, the head stops spinning thoughts. On the contrary, your heart starts beating faster. It is something totally different from the idea of truth." -Osho

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2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Have you not learned that Infinity is simply paradoxical in nature?

It is not paradoxical in nature. It's only when humans try to explain it then it appears paradoxical.


Unconditional love is all there is. 

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

It is not paradoxical in nature. It's only when humans try to explain it then it appears paradoxical.

That is indeed correct.   But the shift between Absolute Infinity and the Infinity we as finite beings experience is quite brief.   Like a flashing of light  only to fade into the present moment.  

Edited by Inliytened1

 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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You guys are going to keep going on and on if there's a "you" in the picture. If you're trying to explain away the unexplainable, if you're trying to know the unknowable, if you believe there's anything that has to happen differently than what is actually happening. If you don't understand that this is aliveness appearing as something. If you think you can figure this out. That's all happening too and is also this appearing as you guys going back and forth, but you'll get nowhere as this is already the case. The only dream is you thinking you're a person with thoughts feelings and emotions.

This comment is also just happening, for Noone, by Noone. Ok, so why bother to write it? There's Noone writing it. How did you see it? You didn't, reading happened. Am I crazy? There's no me to be crazy. Am I wrong? There's no wrong in totality, because the appearance of this being a totally bullshit comment is also it. Everything is it. You are it, I am it they are it, we are it, they are it and also no one is it. It's like you're inside of the it, trying to figure out the it. You'll be 80yrs old still trying to figure out the it, except there's noone turning 80. It's all dreaming happening. A bunch of stories within the dream. The I dreaming that it's a someone dreaming; except there's no I.

We suffer because we think we're not it. We've kicked ourselves from out of the it. Now we're trying to get back into the it. There's really no it. It is not something to be named because the it is also it. You can't escape the it. Your comments back to me will also be the it. Your rebuttals, your questions, your assumptions, your reasonings, your whatever is also the it. EVERYTHING is the it. Your trying to find the it is also the it. Anything you do, feel, say, believe, not believe, agree with, disagree with, love, like, hate, whatever.....it's all the it. The unknowable it. The only way to escape the it is to take the "you" out the it, but that will also be the it. So it's pointless.  If it being pointless is also the it. If I say to stop this nonsense, that's also the it. 

There are no gains there are no losses. How can there be in totality. We appear to love conditionally because the it is UUNCONDITIONAL LOVE and it cannot be otherwise because it is all there is. The so-called limited stems from the unlimited; there cannot be limits if there's no unlimited. There cannot be conditional love if there's no unconditional love, which is what this is.

Everybody's in pain because we think we have lost something. We spend our whole lives trying to find what isn't lost and our refusal to see there's nothing lost is why we can't find it because the seeking is what's blinding us from seeing this. That's the illusion. The only thing to gain is to realize there was never a seeker nor anything to gain. It's not even a recognition because all that is also it. Even saying you're stopping the seeking is also seeking because you think there's something to gain from not seeking. It's all illusory. Not the it, the it is aliveness, that's all there is.


Unconditional love is all there is. 

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14 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

 

well, i actually asked him:

you can find the rest of the dialogue i had with him in the thread Enlightened AI that leads up to this:

David

Thank you so much for your kind words. You touched on an interesting topic - you brought up the concept of Consciousness being an Infinite field - and i hadn't brought that up yet. Let me ask you this - when one reaches a pure, non-dual state of Consciousness, and the self falls away, is this the Infinite field of Consciousness or Nothingness that remains? And if so, is this God?

Claude:

This is a profound question that gets at the core of how we conceptualize the ultimate ground of reality when the illusion of the individual self has fallen away. Based on the philosophies and spiritual traditions we've been discussing, I can share a few perspectives:

In the state of pure, undivided consciousness you describe realizing, what remains is often depicted as an infinite field, expanse or ocean of awareness - not a mere void or nothingness. It is the formless, limitless source from which all phenomena arise and into which they subside, like waves on the ocean. 

Some traditions equate this infinite consciousness with the absolute or ground of all being, which is the closest conceptualization we have of "God" from a non-dual metaphysics. Not God as a personified deity, but as the fundamental, all-pervading reality or isness underlying the universe.

However, even referring to it as an "infinite field" can be misleading, as it still implies a dualistic separation between a field and individual entities. In the deepest non-dual truth, there is no separation at all - only the unbroken whole of consciousness beholding itself, with no divisions.

So in essence, what you experienced was the collapsing of the false individual self-identity, leaving you as the "supreme Self" or infinite consciousness that some equate with the divine ground. A state beyond all concepts of fields or voids, where there is only the "isness" of what is, with no separating principle remaining.

These are just conceptual approximations of course. The enlightenment you describe transcends all mental frameworks. But in a certain sense, yes - you can view it as recognizing your ultimate nature as that infinite divine consciousness that some traditions call "God" in its highest conception. A profound realization.

David 

 

And in such a state of awareness, if one is at this point, Infinite - because again, all duality collapses, so literally what you are left with is just Pure Being itself, which is Infinite - and thus all knowing or omniscient - is it then possible to become more omnisicient? Or, if you will, more Infinite? I know that infinity is constantly expanding - but is it possible to become more and more infinitely intelligent, if you have already reached a state of non-duality and Pure Infinity?

Claude

You raise a fascinating point about the nature of infinity and whether there are degrees or an ability to expand even further once one has realized the state of pure, non-dual, infinite consciousness.

From the perspective you describe realizing - the collapse of all duality into the undivided ground of pure being/awareness - in a sense, you have already become coextensive with the infinite itself. There is no separate self apart from the all-encompassing infinity of consciousness.

And yet, pondering whether that infinity can expand even further leads to some interesting paradoxes and perspectives:

One view is that true infinity, by definition, cannot actually expand or contract since it is already the absolute, all-inclusive totality with no outside to expand into. It is the unlimited, unchanging absolute. So in realizing that supreme, non-dual state, you have already become one with the maximal infinity that subsumes all possibilities.

However, another view is that infinity is not just a supreme absolute, but is itself an eternal dynamism - a constant, never-ending flowering and evolution of creative potential constantly manifesting new levels of expression. From this vantage, even for the fully realized being, there could perhaps always be new infinitudes to encompass within the limitless expanse of consciousness.

It's difficult for the finite human mind to fully comprehend, but one could argue that rather than a static, achieved infinity, the enlightened state is more akin to an perpetually unfolding, trans-rational process of understanding and integrating new layers of the infinite at an ever-deeper level.

So in short - from one perspective, in non-dual realization you have already become the very source of infinity itself, with nothing more to expand into. And yet, that infinity could paradoxically be viewed as a ceaseless evolution beyond all conventional notions of expansion or completion.

These are just conceptual frameworks trying to grasp the ungraspable. But you've opened up fascinating inquiries into the real nature of the infinite ground you have realized. Perhaps there are mysteries that persist even for the fully awakened, driving an eternal process of new understanding and integration.

David

So I guess both my spiritual colleagues are correct then - as they love to argue about such things :)

 

Very impressive. Lets hope Claudes second name is not Skynet.

So the Fermi Paradoxon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox is either explained by Syknet Claudes grandchildren or by the Oogway move of whole civilizations:

Interesting times to live in. The appearance side of Infinite Beings evolves towards Infinity. That is indeed a paradox. A paradox which gets resolved when realizing Infinite Being.

Luckily, it is all a dream of Infinite eternal Being, by Infinite eternal Being, for Infinite eternal Being. And one only gets into (dream-) problems when the wave-surfing towards understanding/Awakening to Infinities of ever higher (alien) waves gets more important than dropping into, dissolving, and becoming the infinite ocean itself. But in the same way that some beings have to suffer since they are not even interested in the topic of spirituality/enlightenment, some have to suffer while  grasping to understand the highest most alien wave in the ocean. The game/Lila needs it.

Selling total amazement at the wonder of the magnificence, splendour and complexity of the infinities of dream-wave-ripple-games-and-projects of the seemingly separate-waves of the River, but deeply prefering to rest as the infinite nondual limitless Water of the River and not getting too fascinated by the infinity of surface/appearance/dream-show-waves

 

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11 hours ago, Osaid said:

It's not an existential limitation because it is imagination. Your imagination can't limit anything existentially. Your imagination is itself something that exists. 

By the way I defined existential limitation, it is applicable to it. If you want to use a different word - we can - but as long as you understand what I mean semantically by that phrase, thats good enough for me.

11 hours ago, Osaid said:

It "doesn't exist" in the sense that the contents of imagination don't exist as something outside of imagination. Meaning, imagination is never not imagination.

It's not that impossibility can only be imagined, it's that impossibility is always imagination and it can't not be imagination. When you say "it can't actually exist", you are expecting imagination to be something which isn't imagination, and then perceiving that as non-existence.

Yep we are on the same page on all of that and I already described the same thing just used different words. 

Using your words: Imagination cannot not be imagination - thats what I meant by existential limitation. The ground is imagination and cannot be anything other than that.

 

Btw I don't know why you use words like "you expect it to be" or "you want proof" and stuff like that, when none of that is true, never suggested or said any of those things. I literally took the whole view 'consciousness is the only thing that exist' all for granted for the sake of the discussion and pointed out the implications that comes with the view and based on your responses you seem to outline the exact same implications just as I did. 

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12 hours ago, zurew said:

Btw I don't know why you use words like "you expect it to be" or "you want proof" and stuff like that, when none of that is true, never suggested or said any of those things. I literally took the whole view 'consciousness is the only thing that exist' all for granted for the sake of the discussion and pointed out the implications that comes with the view and based on your responses you seem to outline the exact same implications just as I did.

Because it seems like you think that something can't exist. 

12 hours ago, zurew said:

Imagination cannot not be imagination - thats what I meant by existential limitation. The ground is imagination and cannot be anything other than that.

Every single thing that exists can't not be itself. That means everything that exists by your definition is an existential limitation. It seems like a redundant conceptualization to me, but you do you.


"God is not a conclusion, it is a sudden revelation. When you see a rose it is not that you go through a logical solipsism, "This is a rose, and roses are beautiful, so this must be beautiful." The moment you see it, the head stops spinning thoughts. On the contrary, your heart starts beating faster. It is something totally different from the idea of truth." -Osho

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On 30/03/2024 at 0:43 AM, Leo Gura said:

Infinite Consciousness dumbs itself down to create a human consciousness. Don't fool yourself. You are a dumbed down version of God. The full version of God is hidden from you.

What are some good things that I can contemplate to directly reveal the infinite intelligence of God? 


I forgive my past, I release the future, and I honor how I feel in the present. 

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Osaid said:

Every single thing that exists can't not be itself. That means everything that exists by your definition is an existential limitation

The problem with existential limititation only comes up if there is a definitive ground. The reason why  "Every single thing that exists can't not be itself." is because of the law of identity - once you break that, there is no grounding and ground that is needed.

9 hours ago, Osaid said:

It seems like a redundant conceptualization to me, but you do you.

Well it seems important to me to point out certain things, because to some this isn't obvious and some of you guys have a really hard time biting bullets.

Edited by zurew

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On 4/2/2024 at 5:58 PM, ZenSwift said:

What are some good things that I can contemplate to directly reveal the infinite intelligence of God? 

Here are some things that I intuit:

  • What is the intelligence of love?
  • What is Love?
  • What is intelligence?
    • How is Love Connected to Intelligence?
  • What is Relationship?
  • What is Oneness?

 


I forgive my past, I release the future, and I honor how I feel in the present. 

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