Leo you misunderstand Hitler completely

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler

2 hours ago, OBEler said:

@mmKay where did I say Nazis were not corrupt? Of course they were.

"Lead a normal life and feel free to cancel if you don't want to do some dirty tasks"? Do you understand  what politely declining a task from that corrupt regime means for your family , business and possessions?"

I probably do more understand than you do if you think you will be immediately deported. I even have personal evidence, a family member, he was in the SS, refused to work at a concentration camp because it was traumatic for him to do this dirty job. So what happened? Nothing really. No punishment at all. he took another job which had nothing to do with killing people. He lived a good life until he died in the age of 80.

 

Interesting that I need to position myself if I see Nazis as good or bad. Such a black and white view I don't have. I am only interested in what was true. And as reality is complex , so is the behavior of Nazis. At the end they were human beings, or at least partly humans. So there is a lot of ambiguity in my posts here because if you want to hear the truth and not the repeated propaganda story things get complex and sometimes paradox.

But if you really want a position from me, fine : I am against the image of Nazi Germany created by Hollywood war movies (inglorious bastards etc) and call of duty games. It's a distorted view of how it really was and many of you are brainwashed by this as I can also see in this thread. Most Nazis were not sadistic, narcistic psychos but total normal people like me and you who had probably their best times in their lifes in Nazi Germany until they lost the war. 

People today think that Germans were either total stupid or forced to participate in Hitler regime. But the truth is most Germans were willfully participating in it and glorified the Hitler regime. Hitler raised to country out of misery. And not only conservatives were Nazis, from all kind of classes. It was a unified country and there was not so much pressure needed to create this like people here think (no North Korea style). 

   Putting aside your appeals to subjectivity, anecdote, false equivalency, and appeals to ambiguity, why do you think you don't need to take a more good/bad positioning towards Nazi Germany when in an argument? Do you not think you need to check if your argumentation for a Nazi Germany calling themselves a socialist party instead of conservative party a valid/invalid, weak/strong argument back against @Leo Gura?

   So your new argument and position is instead of this semantics issue with @Leo Gura, you're against the new images of Nazis portrayed by Hollywood war movies. like Inglorious Bastards for example, and within the gaming industry that made Call Of Duty. Is the reason why you're against Hollywood and western media portrayal of Nazis due to them being Jewish/Zionist directors? Is it due to the Jewish elite ruling Hollywood and media overall? If most people's views are distorted and brainwashed by Inglorious Bastards and Call Of Duty, and by Hollywood?

   If you think Nazis in Nazi Germany were totally normal people and not psychos, narcissistic sadists, then why would totally normal people allow the holocaust to happen, ethnic and racial discrimination to happen, and destruction of libraries to happen during Nazi Germany? Is that a normal person's behavior, to destroy libraries, and ethnically cleanse an area like that?

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

On 2024-03-26 at 7:16 PM, Leo Gura said:

I don't give a fuck about Destiny. His political views are intelligent, nuanced, and moderate. If I see him saying something blantantly wrong I will let you know.

   Would this cu** as something blatantly wrong in framing and defining what's Nazism?

https://x.com/TheOmniLiberal/status/1773064937931165970?s=20

[Danioover9000]

   Just based on these tweets alone:

   Is enough grounds and basis to disqualify Destiny as some important source and arguer, or even a valid arguer of any political commentary he does. Due to the toxic nature and background of him as an online gamer, live streamer, and 'debatebro', easily dismisses him as some credible example of some good takes on political commentary. The fact I have to spell it out to ALL OF YOU, that Destiny is not to be trusted so easily is astounding!

   I'm not spreading drama! Don't pull that card on me, I'm spreading awareness how he twists and lies and has bad takes on foreign policy. Learn to critically think for yourself and observe, which is it's best to put aside one's ideological dogma and just observe!

@OBEler Same goes to you too, not to the many other users arguing about you. All must think critically and observe.

[OBEler]

@Danioover9000 I don't understand your last post, what exactly do you want from me? I don't get the context 

 

"Is it due to the Jewish elite ruling Hollywood and media overall? If most people's views are distorted and brainwashed by Inglorious Bastards and Call Of Duty, and by Hollywood?"

It doesn't matter if the director is Jewish. What matters is if they spread a correct image of what really happened in history and not a distorted one.

I have the feeling you are biased and are not interested in truth. Because you cannot handle what normal people are capable of.

Edited March 27 by OBEler

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler

6 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@Danioover9000 I don't understand your last post, what exactly do you want from me? I don't get the context 

 

"Is it due to the Jewish elite ruling Hollywood and media overall? If most people's views are distorted and brainwashed by Inglorious Bastards and Call Of Duty, and by Hollywood?"

It doesn't matter if the director is Jewish. What matters is if they spread a correct image of what really happened in history and not a distorted one.

   Okay, doesn't matter if the director is Jewish, but what matters is if they're spreading a correct image of what really happened in history and not a distorted one, did I get that right? So who are you referring to here when you said 'if they spread a correct image of what really happened in history and not a distorted one.'? People at Hollywood? And could you show me how they are spreading a distorted image of the Nazis and Nazi Germany? What would be the more correct image of them, and what would be your solution to encourage them to correct these images?

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler  My solution to correct these distortions for example is to tell others to read more history books, documentaries, and biographies, even go read some wikipedia and other sources. I even consume a wide variety of sources, and minimize intaking garbage information.

[Inliytened1]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:24 AM, Leo Gura said:

What you have to understand is that the far-right mind is full of shit. It talks out of both sides of its mouth. It's not an internally coherent intellectual system. It's a loose network of fears, hatreds, disgust, dogma, myths, and rationalizations.

As I said, if you go far-right far enough you overturn your own traditions. This is not a mistake in my analysis. A far-right Islamic fundamentalist does not truly observe the tradition of Islam.

Hitler was above all an ego-maniac like Trump. So of course he wanted to put his own stamp on things. It takes humility to blindly follow tradition as Mike Pence does.

All you have to do to see that Nazism is conservative is to look at the kind of people who find it appealing, and the type of people Nazis consider their enemies.

Who finds it appealing?

Conservatives!

Who are it enemies? Who did Hitler kill?

Liberals!

Hitler didn't kill liberals- he killed anyone who wasn't blonde haired and blued eyed - and a Nazi - namely the Jews.  Why would one even care about a political stance here.   This was much more than politics.  

Edited March 27 by Inliytened1

[Schizophonia]

22 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Schizophonia

   Guilty by association.😔

sniff

[OBEler]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@OBEler  My solution to correct these distortions for example is to tell others to read more history books, documentaries, and biographies, even go read some wikipedia and other sources. I even consume a wide variety of sources, and minimize intaking garbage information.

You can correct these distortions by yourself with a lot of research but if you are addressing the maker of call of duty etc they are only interested in good sales figures. And the version of the common Nazis as for example in inglorious bastards with this narcistic sadistic and sarcastic behavior sells good.

[Inliytened1]

@OBEler you're correct - Hitler's stance was highly biological - if you weren't born blond haired and blue eyed you should be eradicated from the earth.  Only the finest and fittest shall endure!!

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler

19 minutes ago, OBEler said:

You can correct these distortions by yourself with a lot of research but if you are addressing the maker of call of duty etc they are only interested in good sales figures. And the version of the common Nazis as for example in inglorious bastards with this narcistic sadistic and sarcastic behavior sells good.

   Well in that case if it's the game devs from hyper capitalist game industry that made Call of Duty, and Hollywood directors who made inglorious Bastards, maybe a union, a strike and economic boycott might work if they're more interested in profits. But good luck trying to recruit for those unions, a strike or economic boycotts because who wants to be seen advocating or supporting correction of Nazi Germans right?

[OBEler]

27 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@OBEler you're correct - Hitler's stance was highly biological - if you weren't born blond haired and blue eyed you should be eradicated from the earth.  Only the finest and fittest shall endure!!

27 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@OBEler  if you weren't born blond haired and blue eyed you should be eradicated from the earth.

This  claim had not even the most radical Nazi in his mind. This is exaggerated. But I think you didn't mean that so seriously. But some people here could think Nazis really thought so radical.

[Danioover9000]

   I forgot we even have a thread about the Nazi mind. There you go:

 

[Inliytened1]

4 hours ago, OBEler said:

This  claim had not even the most radical Nazi in his mind. This is exaggerated. But I think you didn't mean that so seriously. But some people here could think Nazis really thought so radical.

Are you serious? One doesn't need to read Mein Kampf to know this guy was a fanatic.  But perhaps you should.   Perhaps both of you should.  

 

 

 

Edited March 28 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Hitler didn't kill liberals- he killed anyone who wasn't blonde haired and blued eyed - and a Nazi - namely the Jews.

That's what extreme nationalists do.

Why do conservatives in America wanna deport the browns?

Hitler considered Jews to be liberals, Marxists, Communists, and globalists. Jews were the source of the liberalism he opposed, both in ideology but also in physical form. The Jews were the embodiment of everything that was corrupting the purity of German tradition, blood, and soil.

American conservatives believe that hispanics and gays are corrupting the purity of white America.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

6 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Are you serious? One doesn't need to read Mein Kampf to know this guy was a fanatic.  But perhaps you should.   Perhaps both of you should.  

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

@OBEler you're correct - Hitler's stance was highly biological - if you weren't born blond haired and blue eyed you should be eradicated from the earth.  Only the finest and fittest shall endure!!

11 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

@OBEler  if you weren't born blond haired and blue eyed you should be eradicated from the earth.

 

Ok enough, Please provide me with a source. This is absolute nonsense! And don't link Just to the book mein Kampf. Give me the exact line that people who don't have specific eye or hair color should be eliminated. That would even include non-jews.

Crazy how call of duty or Wolfenstein games have brainwashed you. You are lost in phantasy and that's exactly why I need to discuss with you here to help you get back.

 

 

Edited March 28 by OBEler

[mmKay]

On 27/3/2024 at 11:28 PM, Inliytened1 said:

@OBEler you're correct - Hitler's stance was highly biological - if you weren't born blond haired and blue eyed you should be eradicated from the earth.  Only the finest and fittest shall endure!!

@OBEler

It is not historically accurate, but it is definitely not nonsense.

Yes, that was the ideology of the superiority of the Aryan race. In actual reality he didn't get to follow through on the extreme version of his vision of killing anyone who wasn't blonde with blue eyes. It was simply logistically not possible in his lifetime.

Do not doubt, if he had the opportunity he would have done it. Even you yourself are startled at the idea: " that would even mean non Jews! "

Sadly for him, he only managed to implement racial hierarchy systems , indoctrination and propaganda of the superiority of the Aryan race, racial hygiene policies and selective breeding programs , which is only just a few steps towards that extreme

You're downplaying the severity of this by  saying " well but he didn't actually kill people if they weren't blonde with blue eyes"

It is absolutely clear he would resort to those means if given the opportunity. His speeches were filled with extreme racial ideology , propaganda of the superiority of the Aryan race, literally pushing the idea of  the need to " eliminate inferior races", and his "Lebensraum" concept , of making living space for the superior Nazi population 

You can put two and two together

-----

What you're fighting against here is that the games and the movies are not  historically factual and accurate.

But what you're missing is that they are absolutely congruent with the Nazi ideology , and therefore valid, plausible ideas and creative spin offs. 

 

What are you defending? The accuracy of the history books? I'm really trying to understand here

It's more important to understand the possible ramifications of such an extreme ideology than what actually only managed to happen .

 

If a terrorist attack hijacks a single airplane that kills 300 people, you seriously contemplate all causes, ramifications and the ripple effect of the tragedy.

Hitler killed 60.000 times more people than this fictional terrorist attack 

Investigating and exploring all alternative scenarios is absolutely valid . You learn from what happened, but also from what could happen but didn't 

 

 

Edited March 29 by mmKay

[Leo Gura]

I asked the Claude 3 Sonnet AI about this issue. Here's what it said:

My Question:

Quote

Is Nazism a liberal or conservative ideology?

Claude 3 Response:

Quote

Nazism, also known as National Socialism, was a far-right, ultranationalist, racist, and anti-Semitic ideology that was promoted by the Nazi Party in Germany. It was a totalitarian and authoritarian form of government that strictly controlled nearly all aspects of society.

Nazism is generally considered to be on the extreme far-right of the political spectrum, opposite of liberal ideologies. Some of the core tenets and practices of Nazism that place it firmly in opposition to liberal values include:

• Extreme nationalism and militarism
• Belief in racial hierarchy and racial supremacy (Aryan master race)
• Extreme antisemitism and persecution of Jewish people
• Suppression of democracy, civil liberties and political opposition
• Totalitarian control of society, economy and culture
• Promotion of traditionalist gender roles and opposition to feminism
• Hostility towards liberalism, socialism, and communism

While the Nazis did implement some socialistic economic policies early on, these were outweighed by their staunchly anti-democratic, anti-egalitarian, and racist principles that were in direct conflict with liberal values of individual rights, equality, and democratic pluralism.

Most mainstream historians, political scientists, and other experts agree that Nazism was an extreme far-right reactionary ideology that arose in opposition to liberal democracy, egalitarianism, and civil rights. It represented a totalitarian form of conservative racial-nationalism focused on purification of the Aryan race.

So in summary, while the Nazis adopted some superficial socialist-style policies, Nazism as a whole is considered an illiberal, conservative, far-right, and brutally totalitarian ideology that was antithetical to liberal democratic values. It was not a liberal political ideology by any measure.

But I guess Clause 3 is too woke.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

14 minutes ago, mmKay said:

@OBEler

It is not historically accurate, but it is definitely not nonsense.

Yes, that was the ideology of the superiority of the Aryan race. In actual reality he didn't get to follow through on the extreme version of his vision of killing anyone who wasn't blonde with blue eyes. It was simply logistically not possible in his lifetime.

Do not doubt, if he had the opportunity he would have done it. Even you yourself are startled at the idea: " that would even mean non Jews! "

Sadly for him, he only managed to implement racial hierarchy systems , indoctrination and propaganda of the superiority of the Aryan race, racial hygiene policies and selective breeding programs , which is only just a few steps towards that extreme

You're downplaying the severity of this by  saying " well but he didn't actually kill people if they weren't blonde with blue eyes"

It is absolutely clear he would resort to those means if given the opportunity. His speeches were filled with extreme racial ideology , propaganda of the superiority of the Aryan race, literally pushing the idea of  the need to " eliminate inferior races", and his "Lebensraum" concept , of making living space for the superior Nazi population 

You can put two and two together

-----

What you're fighting against here is that the games and the movies are not  historically factual and accurate.

But what you're missing is that they are absolutely congruent with the Nazi ideology , and therefore valid, plausible ideas and creative spin offs. 

 

What are you defending? The accuracy of the history books? I'm really trying to understand here

It's more important to understand the possible ramifications of such an extreme ideology than what actually only managed to happen .

 

If a terrorist attack hijacks a single airplane that kills 300 people, you seriously contemplate all causes, ramifications and the ripple effect of the tragedy.

Hitler killed 60000 times more people than this theoretical terrorist attack 

Investigating and exploring all alternative scenarios is absolutely valid . You learn from what happened, but also from what could happen but didn't 

 

 

 

 

Careful, even if it can go in this absurd grotesk direction it is an oversimplification of this ideology. That's far from truth so why spreading this ? Do you want to frame Nazis as extra radical? My question is why do you prefer this version beyond accurate historical facts?

And please think for yourself, Hitler and all other Nazi leaders, none of them were both blond and had blue eyes.

It's really nonsense. Nazis would need to kill the whole planet. 6 billion people including 80 % of their own people. 

 

[OBEler]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I asked the Claude 3 Sonnet AI about this issue. Here's what it said:

My Question:

Claude 3 Response:

But I guess Clause 3 is too woke.

It didn't say clearly that it was conservative.just that it was NOT liberal.

Please refer to Nazism in Hitler Germany because today's Nazism is different.

I asked the same question chatgpt4 with reference to Hitler Germany.

"Nazism, as embodied by Adolf Hitler's regime in Germany, is neither liberal nor conservative in the terms commonly used in contemporary political discourse, especially if we consider the broad and often differing definitions of liberalism and conservatism across different countries and historical periods. Instead, Nazism, or National Socialism, is classified as a far-right, totalitarian, and fascist ideology.

Key characteristics of Nazism include extreme nationalism, racial supremacy, the promotion of racial purity, anti-Semitism, anti-communism, the rejection of democracy, and the belief in the need for a dictatorial leader. The Nazi movement sought radical change, aiming to completely overhaul the existing social, political, and economic order to establish a totalitarian state that emphasized racial hierarchy, militarism, and territorial expansion.

In contrast, traditional conservatism generally seeks to preserve social institutions and values, emphasizing stability, tradition, and a gradual approach to change. Contemporary liberalism, particularly in the Western context, champions individual rights, equality, democracy, and often a degree of social and economic intervention by the state to address inequalities.

Therefore, categorizing Nazism within the conventional liberal-conservative spectrum is misleading. The essence of Nazi ideology is fundamentally at odds with the principles of both liberalism and conservatism as understood in modern political contexts. Nazism represents an extreme, authoritarian form of fascist nationalism that defies placement on the standard left-right political spectrum, where liberalism and conservatism typically reside."

Edited March 28 by OBEler