Israel has to be stopped

[Raze]

 

[Nivsch]

 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

did not see Italy, Germany or Japan loose 70% of their territory even after causing a world war. Most of their territories are still intact.

22 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

 

When those countries lost the war, they were not full of hate for 100 years, carrying out uninterrupted terrorism and declaring 2 more wars. Germany was also invaded by Russia for 50 years.

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

There was no Israel until 1947. The sentiment began when Jews started being dumped there from the British empire. People do not like when random people start being dumped into your land without your consent. 

To give you an example we have far right parties getting popularity and even elected in some Western countries because people do not like the migrant influx in their countries. And this is done by their governments. Meanwhile in Palestine it was done without asking anyone, of course people will be pissed. Imagine USA dumping 1 million random people into France and not asking France any permission. France would be enraged.

Does not help that most of the people living there were uneducated and not very developed which can result in  them responding with violence.

That's wrong in my opinion, Israeli and Arab emigration were simultaneous. There had been Jews and Arabs living in the territory for hundreds of years, but the increase in population was in the 20th century due to migrations of Jews from Europe and Arabs from neighboring countries attracted by the wealth that was beginning to exist in the area. The conflicts did not begin over territory but over religion, just as the 1948 war was religious, this is the reason why several countries united to expel the Jews: religion. Egypt doesn't care about a territorial conflict between Arabs, but it can't stand the infidels desecrating the sacred land

[Danioover9000]

 

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

 

That's wrong in my opinion, Israeli and Arab emigration were simultaneous. There had been Jews and Arabs living in the territory for hundreds of years, but the increase in population was in the 20th century due to migrations of Jews from Europe and Arabs from neighboring countries attracted by the wealth that was beginning to exist in the area. The conflicts did not begin over territory but over religion, just as the 1948 war was religious, this is the reason why several countries united to expel the Jews: religion. Egypt doesn't care about a territorial conflict between Arabs, but it can't stand the infidels desecrating the sacred land

If the conflict was over religion why did it not happen when Jews and Arabs were living together for hundreds of years, why did it only happen when Israel declared a Jewish state and violently expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians?

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

When those countries lost the war, they were not full of hate for 100 years, carrying out uninterrupted terrorism and declaring 2 more wars. Germany was also invaded by Russia for 50 years.

 

Because they were allowed to rebuild and have their own self determination. They weren’t indefinitely brutally occupied and regularly massacred and blocked from statehood.

 

Edited March 26 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi I meant mainly to Ben Gvir party and the far right sector. The whole elected coalition is more moderate but the government (smaller than the coalition) is being kidnapped by the most extreme forces who control its direction. That is because of how our method works, in a way that 3 extreme people can collapse the government if don't like its policy.

Edited March 26 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, Raze said:

They weren’t indefinitely brutally occupied and regularly massacred and blocked from statehood.

Enough with this lie.

IDF fight hamas in the west bank (not civilians) in a security co-operation with the PLO.

Edited March 26 by Nivsch

[Raze]

16 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Enough with this lie.

IDF fight hamas in the west bank (not civilians) in a security co-operation with the PLO.

So the 81 children killed in the West Bank in 2023 are all Hamas?

[_Archangel_]

@Breakingthewall 

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

There is always another way, but when you deal for decades with people who hate you and wish for your disappearance, it is normal for something like what is happening to happen. I'm just pointing out that it's easy to judge Israel but living surrounded by fanatical enemies is not the same as living in your safe first world city and before judging you have to try to assess the situation from all angles.

This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel's response is autoritarian regime-level.


 

 

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, Raze said:

So the 81 children killed in the West Bank in 2023 are all Hamas?

Link.

Ages 16-18 can be considered as "children" too but physically can be developed enough to function fully as hamas (with all the sad way their education system works).

Edited March 26 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Enough with this lie.

IDF fight hamas in the west bank (not civilians) in a security co-operation with the PLO.

   Only HAMMAs? So this means that IDF were fighting HAMMAs men, women, children? Including unarmed Gazans too? 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Link.

Ages 16-18 can be considered as "children" too but physically can be developed enough to function fully as hamas (with all the tragic way their education system works).

https://www.unicef.org/mena/press-releases/number-children-killed-west-bank-including-east-jerusalem-reaches-unprecedented

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/shocking-spike-in-use-of-unlawful-lethal-force-by-israeli-forces-against-palestinians-in-the-occupied-west-bank/

Edited March 26 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze An another important factor: 

There is a sort of (lower intensity) war in West Bank too since oct 7th in which thousands of hamas members have been arrested or eliminated.

So 81 children (~1%) are probably ditributed as follows:

I think mostly hamas young members. In Gaza for example from what I heard 16-18 years old boys are already join to hamas.

The rest (say 10 to 30):

Collateral damage and yes, mistakes of too loose and uncautious soldiers actions, that I am not denying happens from time to time.

Nevertheless, very small percentage, but of course has to be learned from and improve.

Edited March 26 by Nivsch

[Raze]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze An another important factor: 

There is a sort of (lower intensity) war in West Bank too since oct 7th in which thousands of hamas members have been arrested or eliminated.

So 81 children (~1%) are probably ditributed as follows:

I think mostly hamas young members. In Gaza for example from what I heard 16-18 years old boys are already join to hamas.

The rest (say 10 to 30):

Collateral damage and yes, mistakes of too loose and uncautious soldiers actions, that I am not denying are happening from time to time.

Nevertheless, very small percentage, but of course has to be learned from and improve.

What is the evidence the thousands arrested or killed are Hamas 

We have many videos of settlers or idf harming civilians 

[Nivsch]

There are extremist and violent tiny minority among the settlers too I agree that do terror and have to be arrested just like the Palestinian terrorists.

Edited March 26 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Breakingthewall 

This is true, but it doesn't change the fact that Israel's response is autoritarian regime-level.

* After 20 other times when Israel responded intelligently and surgically, what didn't help as you can see.

Edited March 26 by Nivsch

[_Archangel_]

@Nivsch intelligent and surgical operations like Sabra and Shatila? Or the occupation of the west bank territories?
You would like to paint Israel as the country that unfortunately isn't.
I'm glad you seem to concede that the ongoing response hasn't been surgical.

Do you realise that your line of thinking can be applied to justify hamas aswell?

[Nivsch]

@_Archangel_ 

Sabra and shatila wasn't done by IDF but was made possible because of IDF war against PLO terrorists that gave a blind eye to this massacare yes, and hold responsibility in the way didnt prevent it, but the massacare itself was done by the christian palangas. 

The Palestinians are sitting in an area which is way bigger than central Israel, surrounded by IDF in the borders of West Bank, in check points and around the settlements. Not at all a strict "occupation" as many want to draw it.

But yes, a partial control of IDF in parts of the west bank, but together with the Palestinian Authority forces and in a co operation, against any attempt of hamas to thrive there.

Even if you were right in your claims which are at best way oversimplified, the attempt to make any symmetry between the deffensive actions of IDF to the attacks of Palestinians terrorists against civilians is funny in the best case.

Though don't get me wrong, this situation is far from being ideal and a two state solution with a demilitarized (for the first decade at least) Palestinian state is a much better one.

Edited March 27 by Nivsch

[_Archangel_]

@Nivsch

 

17 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Sabra and shatila wasn't done by IDF but was made possible because of IDF war against PLO terrorists that gave a blind eye to this massacare yes, and hold responsibility in the way didnt prevent it, but the massacare itself was done by the christian palangas. 

Second intifada / 2014 operation -  are this a better example?

15 hours ago, Nivsch said:

The Palestinians are sitting in an area which is way bigger than central Israel, surrounded by IDF in the borders of West Bank, in check points and around the settlements. Not at all a strict "occupation" as many want to draw it.

yes, let's call it a "loose" occupation

17 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Even if you were right in your claims which are at best way oversimplified, the attempt to make any symmetry between the deffensive actions of IDF to the attacks of Palestinians terrorists against civilians is funny in the best case.

Killing thousend's of civilians is always despicable, no metter if offensive or difensive.
Funnily enough, the scope of the casualites of the recent are certainly not symmetrical, but that's because the Israel Military is completely out-doing Hamas in terms of devastation.

 

[Danioover9000]

@_Archangel_

3 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Nivsch

 

Second intifada / 2014 operation -  are this a better example?

yes, let's call it a "loose" occupation

Killing thousend's of civilians is always despicable, no metter if offensive or difensive.
Funnily enough, the scope of the casualites of the recent are certainly not symmetrical, but that's because the Israel Military is completely out-doing Hamas in terms of devastation.

 

   True, I guess the only stoppage of this conflict is when an angel blows the trumpet right?