Search the Community

Yes. Nice that you write this post. Very true. >"Solipsism, yes. But from the point of view of God (which is not a point of view, obviously, but using that word as a means to understand ourselves). Not from the point of view of the ego [separate self]." Not from the point of view of the ego/separate self! And Solipsism from "the view" of the One without a second, or Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Suchness/Reality itself doesn't even really need to be mentioned. Because there literally is nothing else, like in "never could be". So it doesn't really make sense talking about it. To whom? "Others"? The consciousness of the mind-stream of other beings can be directly intuited/felt/realized to be ones own empty consciousness at certain levels of Awakening. But Impersonal, Totally Empty Concsiousness. It "wouldn't work" any different way, it has to be empty. Technically speaking, "IT" would not be compatible to fit into the perspective/mind-stream/consciousness of another being/perspective if it weren't totally empty. Just Awareness, AWARE, and nothing else. Empty. Impersonal. How could a consciousness with "my" personal properties "fit" into the mindstream of another being. It couldn't. Therefor, Nothingness, totally Empty Impersonal Consciousness, with another mindstream (feelings/thoughts/subtle feelings of being/separateness/....), structurally exactly the same as ones own mindstream, with the same essence - Nothingness. Which is also the same essence of very appearance of the visual field also. All of that can be directly realized. With certain levels of Awakening, one can directly intuit that the separate-self illusion arisings (I-thoughts, I-feelings) in the mindstream of other beings has exactly the same structure than ones own mindstream (and its I-thoughts, I-feelings). One doesn't read the content of thoughts (some do), but directly intuits their structure/process, in the exactly same impersonal consciousness than the essence of ones own mindstream. And that essence of Nothingness/Impersonal Consciousness is also the same essence of EVERY appearance of the world in the visual field. Also, a direct experience in Awakenings, and something that gets constant in Enlightenment (to paraphrase for example the Mahamudra-system): "Crossing Over to Enlightenment happens when every thought/concept/feeling ("internal" arising) and every appearance (world/visual field form) is seen as empty-thought-concept and empty-appearance arisings in Infinite Awareness-Space". And that is what one is: IMPERSONAL Empty Consciousness. Or better "Nothingness", to make sure that nothing is projected onto it, or that its not fully empty. It is literally Nothing, but with the capacity for sentience. And even that isn't always active, see Deep-Sleep. Definitely, it doesn't include separate-self arisings/confusion/illusion arisings "on top". That is "the screen", and its capacity for sentience/awareness/consciousness. To make it specific: Talking about Solipsism could only make sense from totally empty impersonal Consciousness or Nothingness. And then it is not necessary! (Because it invites more mis-understandings than the clarity it delivers). Talking about Solipsism from any ego/separate self perspective doesn't make sense. And if you are at that empty level of infinite (!) impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness, one without a second, it is redundant and totally unnecessary to talk even about Solipsism. >As long as there is an identification process, there is delusion Yes, exactly. And any form of Solipsism applied to the level of the delusion/relative/ego/separate-self level only can increase narcissm or (separate-)self-grandiosity, which is the No.1 building block of the separate self, the most seductive one, the most dangerous delusion mechanism of Maya. One of the very last things to go. (And then one can guess what makes Solipsism so attractive for egos/separate selfs? Well, one can go ahead confusing the little separate self/ego with the full glory of God/Kosmos/Reality, and feel veeeery important, and boast around with absolute claims.) That (the danger described above, and other dangers) is why by the way in Tibetan Buddhism (and practically all spiritual traditions) Realized Ones normally NEVER speak about their attainments, and at least tend to downplay them, state them smaller, because that tends to boost ones self-importance. And that is not good, neither before or after Enlightenment. Brings bad Karma, not as happy-as-can-be-life. And the same holds also for the not-realized or not stable realized ones. Not publicly announcing ones realization has got other negative effects (like not much examples, or making it appeat to be nearly impossible to reach), but saves oneself (and others) in being more on the "humble side") from the burden of self-importance/self-grandiosity. So its a balance, see one of my last posts with the Video of Ken Wilber. And second factor: Even if you know Absolute Reality and are enlightened, that does in no way mean that ones relative life automatically already expresses the potential that this realization opens up in terms of compassion, ethical living, and embodying the truth. It provides the potential to do so, and also tends to unfold this way. But it is not assured. Ken Wilbers "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up". Over the long-term, when Enlightenment becomes more common, only the "Wake Up, Grow Up, Show Up" stable and mature versions of it will find group-approval/consensus. Because only that version of it is "cool", the other versions are "less than cool", or "pretty uncool". And if with Solipsism one can boost the importance/self-importance/grandiosity to hilarious proportions, confusing ego/separate self with Reality/God, and claiming stuff that is just not appropriate to be claimed for any separate self/any perspective in the Great Net of Indra/Reality/any being, but only for God proper (Nothingness, Impersonal totally empty Infinite Consciousness), well, then one has exchanged the former separate self with a new vastly-blown-up"God"-ego-separate-self, an ego/separate self blown up to cosmic dimensions and self-importance. And then good luck transcending that, and the suffering that goes along necessarily as with any separate-self identity. The big big risk that at least yours truly can see on this forum: Exactly that tends (not at every case, depends probably on the baseline-"blessing"/Karma of narcissm and self-grandiosity already in place) to happen with frequent usage of Psychedelics. 95% of the properties of Infinite Reality get revealed (the relative side, like ones identity with the whole universe (this Infinite Void-Universe, Buddha-Field, or "God" if you are so inclinded to call it that way), but not the fully empty/impersonal Absolute side of it, Absolute Impersonal Emptiness or Nothingness/Abyss that can never be seen. (And by the way, as Steven Wolinsky for example writes based on his Awakenings/visions, there are and infinite Number of Infinite Other Void-Universes/Buddha-Fields just like ours, each with a God/Buddha at its center running the "show", while being it. And none of that is the Absolute, its all relative stuff, manifestation. Not the absolute empty Abyss of Nothingness.... I remember a video somebody once maid about an "Infinity of Gods", sovereign just like oneself.... "). At least not completely, because the Psychedelics don't kill the last remnants/rest of the last subtle separate-self arisings (mainly "Individuality", or a very subtle hard to spot feeling of still being there as anything at all, or an Awareness "of" Emptiness/Nothingness/Nonduality/whatever. Still an Awarness "of"...). And, to make it even more seductive or dangerous: One is not aware what this last "individuality", or "Awareness of ..." is, or that that is still happy and busy and active, destroying ones crossing over to Complete Realization, making one still suffer. If one would understand these last remnancts of Illusion, of "Individuality", one would instantly wake up and stay that way. Knowing what one really is. If Realization of ones Identity with the Absolute Infinite Reality/Nothingness ends after the trip, maybe there was still something active blocking the full Realization throughout? Little remark, included after a waaay to long rambling: If somebody has truly read until here, and thinks all of this post is all BS, please quote the number 147, to show that one has actually read most of that dry and boring musings of yours truly until here... ( : . Thank you, very kind. Well, nothing of what I have written will proove anything for those persons having fallen heavily for that trap. especially those who do it just by thinking and watching videos, and boosting their narcissm already with that tremendously, and didn't even walk the Psychedelic path properly, but are parotting concepts & dogma from someone else. In my humble opinion, it doesn't speak for the forum that such an ego-show can happen without more highlighting these obvious mistakes. So for the "all is understood by watching the vids, but never did a trip"-fraction: Maybe consider taking one of the harder psychedelics like 5-MeO, have most/95%+ of your ego/separate self handed on a platter to you, and then come back with maybe a little bit more existential humility and awe in the face of Infinite Consciousness/Reality, and the way it can easily kill 95% of you with a little chemical and smile while doing so. Luckily, normally their tone of writing, loaded with self-grandiosity, narcissm, and writing style that generally is not "so filled" with bliss/love/compassion as one would normally expect of Divinity/Absolute/God-Realization, showing for every reader with at least some form of working spiritual compass in the heart, that their suffering probably has not ended, and they are peddling conceptual ideas and not actual realization. and if they "camouflage" their writings a bit more towards the "humble and loving/compassion side", at least it gets more pleasant and softer to read And as always, Bon Vovage for "everybody"! Selling Water by the River

No, that dream just happened. I didn't contemplate about that too much. Sure I did contemplate the topic, but I never had real problems with that. A bit yes, but not too much. Maybe because when that contemplation of "other" became a real existential topic, I was already practicing (and concentrated on) staying in boundless changeless limitless Awakened Awareness (infinite, nondual, mere appearance). When you are in that state, it doesn't freak you out that "others" don't really exist, but one can directly intuit that the same Impersonal Consciousness that Oneself and Reality really is, is also the substratum/essence (Nothingness/Consciousness) of their mindstream. You can intuit/feel their Illusion-arisings of I-feelings/I-thoughts of being something specific as being exactly(!) the same as the illusion arisings in ones own mindstream. The exact same mechanism how "others" fall for the illusion, as oneself does and did. Once one knows the structure/pattern/gestalt/essence of ones own Illusion separate self arisings, one sees them in "others", or other perspectives of the same consciousness. That doesn't cause shock, but limitless empathy. It is You (not the separate self, but the real you, Impersonal Consciousness, totally empty), litereally You looking through all eyes. That is the core and source of all empathy, but now without any filters and flowing freely, directly intuiting und knowing that it is You looking through all eyes. Then, where should the shock come from? All beings are children of the Real You, Impersonal Empty Consciousness (not a of separate self blown up to God-like proportions). Including what one formerly thought was "oneself". Only the separate self arisings/gestalt need "others" for love, validation, belongingness, self-esteem, the whole Maslow-Pyramid stage 1-4 up and down is made out of that. Couldn't be different to get a society going & surviving. Impersonal Consciousness and the bliss flowing from it doesn't need it. So it could make sense to transcend all of that already to a large degree before entering the terrain where there is no "other". The gentlemen who wrote "Enlightenment: Behind The Scenes, Leavitt" describes his final Enlightenment experience when he directly realized that he IS his daugther. Literally the same consciousness. Not as metaphor, but literally. Didn't cause a shock, but infinite love. Disclaimer (not written for you Breakingthewall): All of the above is only valid when one speaks from an Identity and mindstream of Impersonal Empty Consciousness, not from the perspective of a psychedelic boosted separate self (or even worse, not even having the psychedelic experience and just playing playing mind-games having watched some videos), blowing itself up to God-like dimensions and playing God. The entrance price for all of that is literally the transcendence/death of large or most parts of the separate self, and the final price is its complete demise/complete transcendence (transcendence of the separate self part, and then include the remaining functional character. Transcend and integrate, not transcend and disassociate, see Ken Wilber). Death/Transcendence not of the functional character/Ego, but of the separate self arisings. The main indicator for the separate self still being well, alive and active is narcissm, or self-grandiosity and self-importance. Preferably in the form of preaching from upon high. On the other side, that is not even a bad thing, because then every newbie with at least some intuition, common sense, and a not too narcisstic karma can spot that from a mile away. Instead of transcending/slowly annihilating the separate self, one boosts it up to God-like dimensions with doing that. Good luck ever transcending that! Doing something like that can destroy ones life. There have been cases like that, final station mental asylum or next life, or in the "best case" just a miserable unintegrated life full of suffering- end of disclaimer - I don't know if that view/frame helps. Maybe it is a nice exercise to feel deeply into the essence/consciousness of what you are, and then deeply into the consciousness/sentience of "another"? Its the same Nothingness/Consciousness. One can directly experience that (if oneself is completely empty, just pure impersonal consciousness). It is not philosophy or a nice idea, but a direct experience. But one has to be completely empty. The own lense of perception has to be completely empty of separate self arisings (=high speed cut off of any of these arisings before they grip/hypnotize oneself and elaborate fully, Trekchö-style. Needs familiarity, training and high-speed of attention/spotting, aka the goal of meditation. Please see my last decription-posting of the Pointing out the Great Way Mahamudra system, link below), only then one can intuit that. A colored lense with stains will not let that intuition/understanding pass. As second step, one can feel that essence of every appearance of the visual field as Nothingness, hovering as mere appearance in infinite Nothingness, at a certain point of practice Which is necessary at some point, because as Daniel Brown said: One can not understand the Totality/Wholeness from a partialized stance. Nonduality has to be there before that understanding. One has to literally become all phenomena appearing in the Infinite Boundless Changeless Awakened Awareness field (that is Nonduality), and then see what all of that is and who or what is aware of that. Then, at the end of the Road, Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness IS everything: Your Mindstream, the mindstream of others, the appearance of the world in the visual field, every though/feeling. Infinite, boundless, limitless, nondual all there ever could be. Everything that could ever appear appears in that, made out of that suchness/Nothingness/Consiousness as its essence. Then, one experiences/becomes/is... Home/safe/Indestructable/eternal: And that actually is not shocking. But if feels like one is at home, now and always, wherever you go in relative reality. No Fear: Somewhere in the Upanishads it says "Where there is other there is fear". If there is only oneself, which is indestructable (no moving parts, just Nothingness that can't disappear), there is no fear. Infinite Love: The recognition that there is no other in the whole kosmos, but only the suchness of ones being, bound together in a infinite nondual field of love Infinite Freedom: When the bliss/love of your own indestructable infinite true being flows, what could you ever want that you don't get, or ever be taken away from you? Total freedom. Then we have Eternal/Indestructable, Fearless, Love, and infinite Freedom. But before one gets there, the illusion-mechanism/Maya/Lila had to place some strong "illusion-protection-mechanisms" in front of these properties of the enlightened mindstream, because if it wouldn't scare the separates selves, who in his right mind wouldn't attach his own mindstream to these properties of the enlightened mindstream. And the strongest one is probably the need for "other" or "others", Maslow stage 1-4. Somehow I mostly fail to write short posts. Maybe I need to go to a training "Concise writing for Dummies" who went off the deep end of Emptiness... Selling Water by the River

I think you will be doing fine. There is nothing to loose but an illusion. >To let go everything is very difficult and scary. But don't ot let go, is a jail. I understand you very well. Several years ago, I had a dream. That was before deeper insights into reality happened. I died multiple times in that dream (literally, by falling, smashing, other funny stuff also), and the visual field went off, only a darkness suffused with light remained. Not the usual blackout (unaware of itself), but an infinite Nothingness suffused with light remained. That was a causal state (using Ken Wilbers terminology), which I later realized. A state quite near to Absolute Reality (meaning easy to intuit the properties of Absolute Reality. Absolute Reality is always here, but sometimes more easy to intuit), but not unaware like Deep Sleep. Nothing there, Infinite, but still somehow aware (suffused with light). That happened multiple times, and during one of the last deaths, I got a bit cocky, saying to myself something like "okaaay, now show me if I can really die. Lets do this again". Dream-Death, and again the same time this causal state of an infinite Nothingness suffused with light appeared. Then, again I died, this Nothingness suffused with light. No objects, no time. A few seconds or a vastly longer time, I couldn't tell. Timeless. It was the same timeless Always Here Mind that I intuited/realized later more clearer. Then I woke up to "real" life, again passing through this Infinite Nothingness suffused with light. What somehow went with all of that was somehow the fear of dying all those "Enlightenment" Deaths, of being Nothing at all, Impersonal, an infinite vast reality perceiving itself. When it began happening to become really more and more impersonal, like beyond my comfort zone, I was a bit shocked like "okay, impersonal? really? Not "myself", the character?" But soon I knew again and realized what would always remain, being that which could never not be there. Indestructable, totally empty, like "no-moving-parts". Eternal. But with the potential for sentience, and to become/manifest anything IT wanted. Independend if a Dinosaur, another human, an animal, or whatever else would manifest in my mindstream/perspective as subject in another illusion/Lila. I even became grateful when a dream appeared that was not lucid, like the fun/experience of having the chance to believe such an illusion again. That took away the fear of being less than lucid once more. So the after-glow of remembering that dream ended a phase pretty fast that could have been prolonged for sure. Nowadays, I am very thankful for that dream, although I only recognized its meaning, significance and effects much later, when significant parts of the separate self died, or rather got seen through for the illusions that they were. Bon voyage! Water by the River

Razard86, in my humble opinion, you didn't answer the question of OBEler. But maybe OBEler got it, and I didn't. The other beings/perspectives don't collapse or end when you or OBEler (or I) die/end. Indras Net and Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness (which we really are, already now, we just "forget" all other perspectives/beings) will continue fine without all of "us". To think it all ends if a certain perspective is switched off is solipsistic madness. Thinking the Totality stops when one separate perspective is shut off... Its like looking a bit too deep into the pond like Narcissus did, and boosting it with the power of an Infinity of Gods. Don't you intuit that the exactly same consciousness/Nothingness that you are is every other being? When I look at other beings, I intuit the same consciousness that I really am (and every being is). Their mindstream arisings arise in that Nothingness/Consciousness exactly as in mine. There is no difference. That Nothingness is the essence of everything, all perspectives, every appearance in Reality. Nondual, infinite Nothingness, Reality itself. The same Nothingness/Consciousness that we all are can continue very well without you and me, and anybody else. It can't go anywhere. "It" is already everyhting, everyone, infinite and total. You only get problems with answering these questions if you confuse Totally Empty Consciousness/Nothingness with something not so empty. Like a totally empty separate self/witness, with some individuality still left, hovering in a nondual field. Especially easy to get there with psychedelics. Or even worse: "Thinking" ones way there, watching one Youtube-video or two too many... Going down that road, one has to use construct funny concepts like Infinity of Gods (very nondual indeed), and other Solipsistic funny stuff, making space for a separate self blown up to God-like proportions. The funny thing with Solipsism is: If you proclaim you are the only one having a sentient perspective, every one else having also sentience and consciousness knows that you are, well, a bit nuts... Probably this here is peak solipsistic/Infinity-of-Gods madness. The top level to where you can drive a still separate self Gestalt, proclaiming it is God and that there are an Infinity of other Gods. But hey, what do I know.... And now please throw some arguments from the Absolute Side of the Street at me Bon Voyage Water by the River

Yes, very good point you write. And very important. Steven Wolinsky has once said and written: An experience of the Absolute is just that: An experience of the Absolute. It is not the Absolute itself, which is the True You/Reality. But an experience that the True You/Reality is having. In Itself, in the Infinite Groundless Totality of Infinite Consciousness/Reality. In Nothingness, as Halaw (God is Nothingness) calls it, to avoid any "positive" property being attached to the Absolute. Which is infinite, which is another word for "no positive quality at all besides being Reality itself", or: Nothingness. IT contains all possible infinite qualities. If the True You is Nothingness/Absolute/Reality, then when "Infinite Consciousness" tries "to look back over its shoulder" so to say (which it really can't, because IT is everything/the Totality), and experience OF NOTHING/NOTHINGNESS arises. And paradoxically that experience arises IN the infinite Reality that one is. But that "experience of the Absolute/True You" that can be induced by looking into the Absolute Empty Abyss/Nothingness that one really is IS not true You. Because its an experience of the Emptiness/Nothingness/Absolute that one truly is. But doing that often enough "drives the point" home, making One understand that One is really totally empty, Nothing or Nothingness at all, and with that including everything. Reality. Facilitating the Deep Identity Level Shift towards Nothingness/Reality itself, making ones mindstream conform more to the enlightened mindstream. Here, it gets quite paradoxical (but its totally logical once experienced/understood), and couldn't be different. Nice metaphor of Massaro: The Water-Pistol imagined in Infinite Nothingness. Imagine an infinite vast nothingness, nothing there at all. Infinite. Boundaryless. No change happening, so no time. Nothingness initially not aware of itself, but with the potential for sentience/being aware of arisings manifested/imagined in itself. Then, a Water-Pistol is imagined: One suddenly has object, subject, limitations, imagined appearances, a you looking at the water pistol. And if that water-pistol moves: time and change. And if it disappears, Nothingness again. Like in Deep Sleep, unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience and subject-object, if the water-pistol reappears again. If the water-pistol is not there: Infinite Consciousness again in its totally empty version (which is always here anyway, Infinite Reality itself), like before your parents were born. Buddhist systems somtimes uses that example/metaphor in a variation: The dreamer and the dream. The dream also happens/appears in True You. Similiar to the dream happening in the dreamer, being made of the "sustance" of the dreamer, or being imagined by it. Both examples (looking back over its should, and Water pistol) are not the "real thing", but nice approximations that helped me a lot to silence the mindstream, make it rest in its true nature.... And having the right view (like described above and the previous post) boosts the cycle of (or prevents it getting stuck) meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality, -> meditation experience/ (and/or) psychedelic experience, ->realization/understanding (of the own self being more and more empty/Nothingness/the nondual reality and so .... ... until at some point the mindstream conforms to the real state of Reality, and Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment can happen, which is a sudden, clear, deep final shift of Ones Identity towards ever having been Infinite Reality itself, never possibly could be anything different, throwing out any and all mistaken separate self-identity-arisings/I-thoughts/I-feelings (or understanding their illusory nature when they arise in oneself in real-time, and transcending/seeing them as objects moving in oneself, and watching them elaborate/arise, or just cutting them off). Nice thing is: It is un-gaslight-able. Why? Because the gaslighting would occur in what? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Also, there are not stages to go further. Because where would they occur? Yes, in the True You, Real Onself, Infinite Reality itself.... Some interesting and beautiful stuff/manifestation/its mechanisms of Infinite Reality, or rather its manifested side, the wonderful Multiverse can still be explored and celebrated, but: why allow any negative "grasping stress" arising in oneself for the experience (temporary by definition!) of more understanding/awakening to the next n+1 experience of understanding or experiencing more of the infinite possible worlds/experiences of this wonderful show? Hint: God/Reality "itself" will continue to explore the infinity of infinities of the manifested "side" of Reality forever and ever and ever.... That (Basis Enlightenment/Great Enlightenment) can happen when all world-appearances is seen as mere imagined appearance happening/"floating" in the groundless Nothingness/True You/Reality, and all "subjective" separate-self arisings are seen as mistaken identity arisings in oneself, getting replaced by the True Deep Identity of Infinite, Groundless, Totally Empty and mere appearance Absolute Reality itself). And then, welcome home to a home you never really left. Concluding the journey that never really happened. Only appeared to do so. that includes at that stage ending trying to force it (because it has to be automized without a separate-self-I "doing" them, because who/what could try to force it? Well, the separate self. Which would re-enforce it again). Tricky until the end... with best regards from Maya The paradoxes of that advanged stage are described by the way very nicely in Nonmeditation Yoga of the Mahamudra system, preferably descibed in "Pointing out the Great Way, Brown". Please excuse my long musings... Hope nobody feels lectured too much. Selling Water by the River

It isn't real in the sense of something that judges or forgives you etc. "God" exists in horror because every single thing that is, is substantially the same, yeah... So the feeling of terror is made, substantially, of the same thing as the feeling of joy. Sentience is made, substantially, of the same thing as a rock. This is nondual insight, and also inevitable logic. You simply can't build a wall from bricks and have any single tiny speck of it not be brick. You can't make an origami animal and have any part of that animal be anything other than paper. Same with any similar analogy to describe what the nature of reality is. It's just not like that, like something that forgives you for doing bad and thinks about how to judge people or about Satan etc.

19 minutes ago, Salvijus said: That's clever. But let me challenge this. Who observes that the coffee table has vanished? There's somone else observing the coffee table coming into existence and then dissapearing. I would agree that observer and the objects of observation are ultimately one, but not the same. Bc if it was the same, then if a coffee table was to vanish, YOU would vanish with it. > The separate self or witness vanishes exactly with it. Absolute Reality is initially unaware of itself of no appearance/coffee table arises, but IT has got the potential for sentience, when some appearance shows up. Without appearance imagined/manifesting, NOTHINGNESS. Yes, your Essential Nature, or Infinite Reality itself can never vanish, but it can be unaware of itself if no appearance arises/is being imagined. Nothingness. Not nothing, but a Nothingness initially unaware of itself if nothing arises, but with Infinite Potential to manifest/imagine any possible show within itself. I agree with Hawal that Nothingness is a very good pointer, since you can not associate any image/appearance/attribute with it, since any image/appearance/attribute would be an arising within it. Neti Neti. The empty Abyss of the True Subject, fully nondual when a coffee table shows up, watching itself. . I know, sounds nuts... , but feels wonderful. And when there are no separate self arisings, the coffee table watches itself. And later, when a human thought stream is needed for practical daily business, that appears also within you. But doesn't-need to. True You is still there when the coffee table watches itself, no human identities necessary. Optionally these can be imagined, but the True You is fully fine without them. And any scary-reaction-arisings to this state of things are just protection-mechanism of the illusion/game, also arising in You. Please excuse when I started rambling with these musings again... Selling Water by the River.

Although I agree with all you have written, Salvijus, there is a third formulation that at least I prefer: The coffee table observes itself. Perceptions perceiving themselves. When it feels like that, it is stable. At least for me. And if the coffee table is gone, and you are gone, you are not aware of yourself (Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, Cessation). But "Nothingness & Infinite Potential", with a potential for sentience. That is when all dualities collapse in the Always Here Reality that One truly is. And when being awake to That Nothingness/Absolute Reality in daily life, one is not a Witness or a human, but One has a witness or human. In the Reality that One is. Totally nondual. Then "one" gets out of the way, and lets Awakened Awareness do what the you/human did before. And at least in my case, that works more smoothly than the illusion that was in place with the separate self-show before. Water by the River We are that Reality. When you understand this, you see that you are Nothing, and being Nothing, you are Everything. That is all. - Kalu Rinpoche

The Clap of the One Hand/Reality/True You is still there when the light-show of the visual field, and every other formless arising, is switched off. Then "It" is just Infinite Potential, Nothingness, initially unaware of itself. Perception and Awareness (which is always "of" some appearance) comes when something appears. Before that, "It" is initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience. Nothingness with a potential for awareness (of something). In one of my last posts, I described Massaros (Conversations with a Sceptic) example of Infinite Vastness/Nothingness, and suddenly a water pistol is imagined: Before that, no awareness, no nothing. Just Infinite Potential/Nothingness. Initially unaware of itself. So what is more fundamental? Switch "everything off" (Nirvikalpha, Deep Sleep, Cessation), et voila.... But then it is not nothing, but Nothingness, since IT/You has the potential for sentience, and Infinite Potential, since "It/Reality" can be aware of something if something is imagined/manifested/duality appears. Infinite Potential includes Infinite Intelligence and Infinite Love and so on.... When you contact this always here Reality/True Being/Nothingness/Infinite Empty Consciousness-Suchness deeply, and it becomes your True Core/True Identity (which it has always been, but one preferred playing the games of mistaken identity/separate self), then the clear light show of the visual field automatically becomes less important than the Always Here Reality/Abyss. The light show can actually go dark. Nothingness. You are not aware of yourself there, that would be too much movement. The eye can't see itself. But You/Reality has the POTENTIAL for sentience. That Infinite Nothingness is that in which "everything", every appearance the Visual Field, floats in in a nondual way. IT is always here. Behind your eyes, so to speak, and literally . The Nothingness behind your head, and "around" your Visual Field. The Nothingness "below" and in every appearance. Actually every appearance IS this Nothingness, appearing as appearance. Its the Groundless Ground of everything. It is that which gives you absolute Freedom, and Eternity in the palm of your hand. Practically speaking: When the "access" to the Absolute is available in a stable way, it is this aspect that "one" tends to talk about values highest, and identifies with. Not so much the Illusion-Light-Show. But of course the Nothingness is the "substance" or groundless ground of all appearances, in a total nondual way. They are not separate. But the Nothingness/Infinite Potential is more fundamental than the Appearance Clear Light Show. Selling Water by the River

Beautiful summary. Please allow me some musings on the topic.... What You/Reality/Truth are is/was/will be always the case, can not be different or change. And yet "IT" can be clouded over, like the sun can be clouded over with clouds of separate self arisings (the illusion of being something different than what one really is - Nothingness, but with potential for sentience, and the whole infinite field, nondual. "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche"). looking at a solidified (not just mere luminous groundless appearances) and external (out there, not nondual) world. The sensations of "solidity, not luminous/mere appearance" and "external, not nondual" are specific arisings that can arise in the opening of Reality that one really is, but they don't have to. If they don't, IT/Truth becomes much clearer (mere appearance show hovering in eternal Nothingness). This "on top added" clouding over (separate self arisings) can go, can be understood, seen through. The thought arisings of the person move in You like for example the wind. Arising, but just something happening in Big You/Reality. Then, one has always access to the real state of things (what is always true). Blowing away/seeing through all cloud-arisings of the separate self via certain meditation methods over the years blows away all clouds. Psychedelics are generating a hurricance to blow away most/nearly all of these clouds at once, but it leaves one not able to blow them fully away afterwards without the hurricance. Psychedelics are wonderful tools to get previews and explore the Multiverse/manifested reality, and combining them with efficient meditation methods to see through all (!) separate self arisings is the best of both worlds. Enlightenment has been defined as realizing/deeply understanding/awakening to that the separate self doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist. It just seems to exist, like a clouding over of the sun, an illusion, seeing the rope as a snake for example. The sun in this metaphor is what would always be true, always be the case. The Eternal Enlightenment that is always here, the Buddha-Nature at the core of every being, who are already enlightended but don't know it. The sun/IT has always existed, always exists, and will always exist. The clouding over is temporary, a temporary state, and can be removed. The clouding over state (sun not visible, but still "there" would be a state with no Enlightenment) corresponds to an unenlightened mind-stream, with duality and solidified "external" world present. But that doesn't make ones True Nature/Eternal Enlightenment a temporary state. Ones True Nature/Original Enlightenment/Buddha Nature is more fundamental than any state in it, clouded over or not. And if one fully realizes ones eternal empty True Nature, the eternal aspect dominates in ones being. It is more fundamental than the passing and changing illusory show/river of appearances. The eternal unmanifest empty side of Nothingness is more fundamental than the flowing river of manifestation/appearances/"Appearance side of manifest consciousness,->Szyper, Infinite Consciousness". The clouding over can be temporary be removed by a "hurricane/strong wind" of psychedelics, removing 95% of the clouds. When the hurricane/wind is gone, it snips back to being clouded over, and you can't see the last 5% of clouds while tripping (fully empty, but some individuality still left), because the sun already looks very visible. And exactly these last traces of individuality are what makes it cloud over later again. And these last 5% can make a lot of trouble, because they make you think you already removed all separate self arisings... here is where it can get a very interesting show, involving terrestrials/heaven and earth/and maybe even some extraterrestrials. Possibly sometimes even a case for these gentlemen, with the flash-thing... The clouds can be removed fully by seeing through them all, normally done by hundreds of hours in these states. Then, you can realize yourself to be the sun fully. And the difference between 5% clouds remaining and 0% is quantum. Or a deep deep shift in Identity, which remains. Understanding what one really is, and realizing it to ones core. A cloudless sky with only the sun is something fundamentally different than a sky with 95% sun and some clouds remaining. That last shift is certain. One can not miss the last shift. On all other Awakenings/Enlightenments before you are not sure if they are final. It feels like, but one is not sure. This one is. If one has to convince oneself that "this" is it, or decide on it, or if anybody/anything can shake one/gaslight one, well.... it is not it. Which is logical, because if one knows what one is one knows what one is, and if one is not completely sure, then one doesn't know what one is. And it brings the potential for psychological suffering to stop, because psychological suffering IS a big building block of the separate self arising Gestalt/structure. And if one fully see through that (the last 5% of the clouds), one gains the potential to literally cut off these suffering-arisings. If one fully knows what one really is (like in "no doubt possible"), and one can cut off all separate-self psychological-suffering-arisings, who or what could lead you to doubt or gaslight you? Hope I didn't lecture too much. Maybe some find that helpful. For those that don't, please don't do the bear manoeuvre shown in the link in the signature, listen to the "Blackeyes Peas, Where is the love" video, and enjoy the show. The point of the ride (separate self show) is the ride, and if that is still attractive, let's continue the ride... Selling Water by the River @UnbornTao: Can't help it ....

What's sentience?

Hi Mike, I am not sure if I fully get your questions. If my answer below is not on topic, please excuse, and let me know. Below are some ramblings on the topic of space, and how it developed for me going from "self-existing-reality-aspect" to "imagined in Reality/Infinite Consciousness". which was one of the deciding steps boosting nonduality/mere groundless appearance in everyday life, making the constant intuiting of fundamental Nothingness/Reality much more proficient. At least for me, space itself was one of the last things to go from "self-existing" to imagined. "Time" as concept goes before, and is replaced by the Always Here Mind/Reality. Space is one of the first "Archetypes" necessary for manifestation in this dimension, and one of the last things to be seen through. Space is not fundamental (or self-existing), it is also imagined. Space (any kind, 3D, 4D, non-euclidian, whatever. Infinite amounts of different space-dimensions in Mathematics) is not any kind of Absolute Reality. It took me a long time to get this, thinking along quite similiar lines of thought as these you write above. Space is normally seen as such a fundamental that (at least for me) didn't even considering questioning that, or rather wondered how space "fits into the picture" of Ultimate Reality,which has cost me quite some time. The perspectives of Consciousness/Reality of the Leavitt picture (hyperbolic Euclidian Space of Visual Fields Bubbles, see previous posts) are not situated in any kind of space. The "Absolute or Nothingness/Primary Consciousness/Reality unaware of itself when no arising is imagined" is more fundamental than space. It is fundamentally totally spaceless. Space is imagined in it. As one of the first arisings. If there is nothing, there is no kind of space. Just Infinite Potential. See the Massaros Waterpistol example (Conversations with a Skeptic) I wrote about in previous posts. With space, I mean any kind of space, 3D, non-Euclidian, n+1 dimensions. Also, Indras Net is not situated in space. Leavitts Picture is a version of Indras Net. Both taken together are a nice working model. An Infinity of perspectives are imagined, and all but your own perspective forgotten in space. Psychedelics can loosen that quite a lot, you get access to more than "your" perspective of this life. But One Absolute Consciousness/Reality is aware of them all (since there can not be anything else than THAT, which is also a direct realization), and "that" also happens to be the stuff/material of all appearances, totally nondual. Perceptions perceiving themselves. And with no appearance/arising, this Reality is unware of itself, but with the potential for sentience. To make it more practical: If you have ever remained aware while going from Dream Sleep to waking state (or the other way round): There is a spaceless state in between, with NOTHING arising. Infinite. No Space. "vast", but not even vast. Just infinite. It is not 3D-Space. Just Nothing. No separate small you. Only Infinite Potential. Similiar to Deep Sleep (blackout), but like an infinite Nothingness/darkness suffused with light, timeless since there is no movement, just nothing. Your perspective is not situated in space then. Space gets imagined in the dream, and in "waking-life", so "before" or "after" THAT (and to be more precise, since there is no time/change in it, it all gets imagined IN IT). And of course, waking life is also a dream, just more coherent, happening in IT/You/Reality. With enough meditation/practice awareness can carry into these states, and instead of the usual Deep Sleep Blackout it can become something as described above, which of course makes the structure of reality more clear. Maya-Deep-Sleep-Blackout replaced by something more revealing (Infinite Darkness suffused with light, and not just a blackout). And I know, all of that is imagind right now, but these states still can occur. And its quite beneficial for understanding to experience them. All this logical reasoning can't get you to the big Awakening into what You really are. But a coherent explanation can help calm the thinking-mind during meditation (on or off the pillow), especially when its no longer only concentrative meditation, but meditation without concentration-support-object, and make it "compatible" for the Realization. And can help you boost your nondual/mere appearance visual field during that. With that goal, I write these lines. Not to logically get you to a conclusion/reasoning that you are IT, but to open the door to be available for that Realization in certain fully nondual states when you are fully empty of separate self arisings, and all perceptions appear as mere appearance. But I agree that the Zen-guys are way smarter than me: They would just mainly stay shut up, smile at you and make you meditate (boost nondual states), and say something like "go looking for the face before your parents were born". Which is actually the same thing I try to point to above. It is up for the reader if these ramblings of mine are of any worth. The Realization is a direct insight/understanding, Consciousness/Reality understanding itself, since there is nothing else. It is not "I always come to this conclusion, that is why I can rule out the rest, so that must be it". That is all nice and good (and necessary), some of the preliminary Awakenings/Enlightenments coming before the Big Bang, necessary to a certain degree and profiency to make the Mindstream "compatible" for the Big Bang. It is more like something undeniable, like a punch in the face. It is an unmistaken insight into what the True You/Reality are, no doubt/error possible. Self evident. Dead-certain (literally). The possibility that one can be gaslit on that Realization is something like a joke occuring in You/Reality. Or, as said in Zen: You can smile the devil in the face, and not be shaken in your certainty of What You are. Or: Who knows the spring does not drink from the cup. If "you" still can doubt it, it is not It. The more compatible your mindstream is with the Enlightened Mind (meaning no possible concept not seen through as thought arisings-in you, the last to go after space is "individuality" of a separate anything), the higher the chance for the Big Bang described above. Small "you" can't force it, but create circumstances where IT can happen (That is a large chunk of the essence of Nonmeditation-Yoga in Mahamudra). You become the whole Infinite "Thing" afterwards, with nobody watching "It". Perceptions perceiving themselves, Steven Norquist style. See my last post if you are so inclined. And yes, that haunted emptiness is the price to pay. But it just happens to look like there is a "real" price to pay, looking like that from before that Gateless Gate. Having gone through it, there never was a price to pay. To the opposite, you win It all. Everything. Everything there could ever be. What you "loose" is just the grip of the separate thinking/feeling arisings of the separate-self-Gestalt, which was nothing more than a a pattern of illusion-arisings (technically (and beware, reductionism ahead): patterns of phenomena-arisings of a separate self=structure=probability distribution of arising, a process of arisings with a certain systematic to it). Arising in you, but not self-existing: You can happily exist without it. What remains is Reality itself, and a person that isn't less functional than before, but more so (because you are not standing in the way of the optimal rollout of Consciousness/Reality). Short form: "I am not a human, I have a human". To fully get it, you need to awaken to it. Or said differently: If you would fully understand all of the above, you would be realized. On how long its stays "haunted", and how much this haunted reaction lasts: I write more about that in my last post. Maybe that is interesting for you, and I hope I didn't miss the questions too much. If I would have known that back in the day, I would have been faster and could have avoided some time-consuming mistakes. That is why I write it, not to lecture anybody or proove any fixed ideas of mine. The Ego is in large parts a cluster of beliefs, which it has to defend life-or-death style, because for the Ego its exactly that (at least with important core-beliefs). Similiar to what the bear does in the video in the signature of the post. If its not useful for you, just disregard it. In case I rambled on, please excuse the deviation. Selling Water by the River PS: If anyone feels inclined to comment on the post, please check if the bear-move in the link below (signature of the post) is being performed or not, and preferably the Blackeyes Peas and "Where is the love" (or something similiar) is being played in your emotional continuum. Then, any questions, comments, and suggestions are even more welcome than when the song is not playing. PSPS: "If God as you say are exploring though us does that mean those two bodies in that conversation is not looking at each other but that God is imagining and holding both of them within itself? And all these ideas of eyes and perception that aren’t actually in my direct experience are the ways I’ve been taking a false ownership of what’s really God’s experience of the other body as something belonging to my body?" Yes, pretty much like that. Various aspects: 1) Leavitts Non-Euclidian perspectives style, and most perspectives forgotten + 2) Indras Net that any perspective reflects all others + 3) aspect that for example even an atom or molecule has some kind of proto-perspective, reacting on similiarly leveled perspectives (=Holons in Ken Wilbers system, and similiar leveled = other molecules). And Holons/Perspectives all the way down (to infinity, quarks, ....) and all the way up (to infinity, like Galaxy-governing-monads, Universe-governing-monads, Multiverse-creating/sustaining/governing monads, and infinitely higher up n+1, and also completely "OTHER" realms, unimaginable to human mind with space/time/.... For that, see Jac O'Keeffe). And then one could start wondering of how much of that one can have explored/understood of all that manifested stuff in one single human lifetime. Next to Nothing. Infinitesimal so to say, if one is mathematically-prone. So maybe instead one fully realize ones essence and structure of Ultimate Reality/True You as Infinite/Nondual/Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness, and LIVE THAT as much as possible? With the bliss it brings? Not to talk about the "hang-over" of the (imagined of course) good Karma/tendencies that brings for ones next imagined manifestation (only if one is inclined to believe in that, which is of course not absolutely real, but part of the imagined show). But that would still be nice for the big show that "we" are all celebrating here So basically, with that model above, you don't need space as self-existing reality. Any maybe consider replacing the God word with some bundle like "Infinite Consciousness/Reality/God/True You". Just to not project/make God some self-existing external reality outside of you. Ultimate Reality is nondual, Infinite Consciousness Nothingness perceiving its own manifestations, perceptions perceiving themselves without separate self elements "clouding" the true state of things. God is not somewhere outside. God is right here. What imagines all of that? Biggest possible accident: Projecting/Confusing the Individuality-Arisings of the Separate-Self-Gestalt on God/Reality/Infinite. That is the worst possible seductive kiss from Maya imaginable. Yet, quite a show....

Hi Lilia, maybe you like these two quotes. They highlight how a large majority of the spiritual marketplace is still selling Nonduality, not the realization of Ultimate Reality/Absolute. Some even only sell No Ego/No Person, which comes before Nonduality/mere groundless nondual Appearance.... And some even call the "No Ego/No Person" No-Self. . Well, caveat emptor.... ( : Nisargadatta, in Consciousness and the Absolute: The Final Talks of Sri NisargadattaMaharaj edited by Jean Dunn "The world is your direct experience, your own observation. All that is happening is happening at this level, but I am not at this level. I have dissociated myself from Sattva Guna, beingness. The Ultimate state in spirituality is that state where no needs are felt at any time, where nothing is useful for anything. That state is called Nirvana, Nirguna, that which is the Eternal and Ultimate Truth. The essence and sum total of this whole talk is called Satguru Parabrahman, that state in which there are no requirements. After the dissolution of the universe, when no further vestige of creation was apparent, what remained is my perfect state. All through the creation and dissolution of the universe, I remain ever untouched. I have not expounded this part: my state never felt the creation and dissolution of the universe. I am the principle which survives all the creations, all the dissolutions. This is my state, and yours, too, but you don't realize it because you are embracing your beingness. " That quote of Nisargadatta is given in Halaw, God is Nothingness Halaw writes: "A major shortcoming with much of the nonduality pervading the modern spiritual marketplace is that it seldom acknowledges the Nothingness which permits ‘being’ in the first place. Awareness, Being, Presence—or some variation or combination of the three—and interconnectedness, seem to represent the extent of what modern nonduality is interested in. Nothingness, however, transcends even nonduality; for while the nondual whole encompasses everything—all of ‘being’, in fact—it does not include Non-being, which precedes and acts as the very basis of ‘being’ itself. Imagine: if nonduality, the interconnected matrix of all ‘being’, including mind or consciousness, were represented by an oil painting, then Nothingness is the canvas upon which the picture resides. Nothingness pervades the entire nondual universe; it is the principle that permeates everything. In other words, Nothingness allows nonduality to occur in the first place, just as it does ‘being.’ The reason that the human body, mind, consciousness/awareness, interpenetrate is because Nothingness allows them to exist—or rather, they exist as manifest Nothingness. This must be realized. Experiencing nonduality is not yet Enlightenment. We must penetrate deeper, past all sense of ‘being’, to the canvas below the paint to realize our and all beings’ true nature as boundless Nothingness. When that happens, ordinary mind becomes the Mind of the sages. Buddha Mind, then, is the mind’s recognition of its own empty, groundlessness, not as some eternal supreme principle called Awareness, but as the very living, conscious embodiment of Nothingness in this world, at this very moment. It is not an exaggeration to say that consciousness is the act of Nothingness being aware. To know ultimate Nothingness, jettison everything. That means the world, your body, mind, ideas, beliefs, saviors, prophets, Buddhas, and even consciousness itself. Everything in the manifest realm must go." But don't throw the raft away in the river before you crossed it.... A not so smart move, quite often seen and read. Maya has got some funny tricks up her sleeve... ( : Selling Water by the River PS: If all of this sounds bleak and like nothing-at-all: That Nothingness can create a new Creation "instantly". As it does every moment. It is not a no-thing-at-all (but Nothingness), but unlimited infinite Potential also. And the source of all sentience/awareness, initially unware of itself when no appearance is arising. IT "is" already everything, nondual. "IT" already makes every appearance groundless/mere appearance, the essence of every appearance is already Nothingness. Suchness. You, with a big Y. The Buddha-Nature at the core of every sentient being. At the same, it is the Absolute Abyss that can NEVER be seen as any object/arising, even by the highest Divinity. "The eye can't see itself"-style. Or God remains an eternal mystery to itself. Not on the arising/appearance side, and their mechanism. But with the Nothingness-aspect, the core of awareness/sentience, that can never be seen. And after dabbling with writing about the neither existing nor non-existing Absolute/Totality/Reality, let's conclude with somthing much more precise after all these impossible endevours. ( : Basho's Haiku: Into the ancient pond / a frog jumps / waters sound

Existence is only serious for the separate self illusion. Which is, as the name says, an illusion. It is not real. Just appearing, for a limited time. But for the separate self, it is very very serious, deadly serious, and very brutal. At least from time to time. And 100% deadly for it in the end. Since the separate self is NOT permanent. Only Absolute Reality is permanent, or timeless. Always here. That is why a good indicator for real/true/no illusion/not imagined/not arising You/Absolute Reality/God/Absolute is: Is it always right here, can not not be there? What Hawal calls Nothingness, so that no concept gets put onto the Absolute Reality. But "a" Nothingness with the potential for sentience, and the potential to imagine anything. Even a separate self that still thinks it is the Absolute/God. >God doesn't "enjoy" pain. You are God.. Do you enjoy it? Definitely not. Absolute Reality neither enjoys it, nor does not enjoy it. It manifests/imagines it, and is aware of its own arisings within it. All reactions towards suffering are only arisings in the Infinite Reality. Enjoying itself is already an arising WITHIN the Absolute Reality. How about replacing the word God more often with Infinite Reality or Absolute? That is a bit safer, in order to not elevate separate self identities to God-Level? They arise in God/Reality, but the separate self for sure is not God or Absolute Reality. It is an imagination of God/Reality, arising in it. Personally, I don't tend to use the word God for Absolute Reality often, because it is so easy to elevate something to God level that is not IT. But I can use it with full conviction for the Absolute, but only if I am sure no subtle separate self arisings/concepts get mixed up with it. And that is tricky, tricky business.... To put it more precisly with more humor: "Ignorance is a bad idea only from the vantage-point of ignorance.", Francis Lucille And if you still suffer (not bodily, but psychological suffering), and the suffering is not just an arising in You, moving trough You, just a small part of You, not really gripping/bothering You, then you are not in stable resting in your True Nature. And that is why "Ignorance is a bad idea only from the vantage-point of ignorance." ( : Selling Water by the River PS: And for the purpose: It is not fun eating alone... Or playing chess against yourself while not forgetting one player. ( :

You (capital Y) are the whole Infinite Reality (imagined body, imagined appearances, imagined everything n+1). With nothing outside of it, because that would be an imagined arising too. Any boundary separiting IT from an imagined other IT would be an imagined arising, an appearing phenomenon. Infinite. Try to imagine everything gone, including thinking: NOTHINGNESS. Not big, not small, just NOTHINGNESS. A vast infinite Nothingness, that is not even vast, because there is no 3D-space or anything (no objects/arisings). Similiar to Deep Sleep. YOU are still there. YOU awake every morning after having been there. You already know that you can be totally something/somebody else in dreams, and have totally forgotten all the past you imagine right now to be your "real" human self. But IT is not Nothingness like nothing there at all, but Nothingness with the POTENTIAL for sentience as soon as anything is imagined, and with Infinite Potential to imagine ANYTHING within it, n+1. Imagine a water pistol pops up in this Nothingness (see example Massaro, Conversations with a Skepctic): Then you have a) an imagined appearance (water pistol) and b) "something" perceiving it, the subject. Or just the perceptions of the water pistal in case no separates self is imagined/arises. Just the waterpistol perceiving itself, perceptions perceiving themselves. Impersonal. Then you have a "world", and subject/object. So what are you then? a) The Infinite Field with anything that can possibly be imagined? Yes. Nondual/Totality/Oneness. The manifest/imagined side of Infinite Consciousness. Always changing, never stable, since no appearance/form lasts. NONE. But there is a constant: b) But even more so, you are that Nothingness that can be unaware of itself, Infinite Consciousness initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience if something arises. The unmanifest side of Infinite Consciousness. The unchanging, Unborn and constant core of the True You/Reality itself. So empty that IT is the Abyss, Impersonal. NOTHINGNESS. But also Infinite Potential, since IT can imagine anything. and "Both"a) and b) is indivisible, nondual. Totally the same essence, ONE Reality. The Nothingness or the True You is already the essence/"substance" of every imagined arisings/phenomenon, including the water pistol, or all separate self arisings (they are all appearances within you). a nice book about that is Szyper, "Infinite Consciousness" And that is why with the Big Awakening/Big Enlightenment, you realize yourself to already be (and ever have been, ever will be) both totally Nothingness (no separate self arisings not transcended or spotted fast enough) and everything manifested/appearing. Its all One Infinite Reality, imagined in Infinite Consciousness/Mind, hovering empty appearances, hovering in You/Reality, perceptions perceiving themselves. What falls away (or are understood) are just the ignorant separate self arisings, that make you feel and think you are not the Infinite Totality, but this small body "moving" in it. You become Nothing(-ness), but also Everything. No longer a separate body-mind in a larger "universe", but all of that happening in You. To fully get it, you need many small awakenings/Kenshos/Enligthenments (becoming gradually the empty infinite mere imagined appearances/nondual field), and a big awakening (Great Enlightenment, Basis Enlightenment, Great Satori) after you have become the whole infinite empty field, when you wonder who/what PERCEIVES that field. The One Hand clapping. That is when the last subtle layers of the separate self are suddenly seen through. Sudden Awakening. Its gradual until then, and sudden and unmistakenly with the last shift. Up to that shift, there are stages and higher awakenings. But the bug stops here. That is also why you never know with the smaller Awakenings (1) what the end of the ladder is.... and (2) you still suffer. And of course you can go exploring afterwards, but you already understand what You are and what Reality is when doing that. And how you fooled yourself before, with many different layers (imagined separate self, imagined past, imagined future, imagined anything n+1). The Real You is quite smart to fool itself in such a way.... ( : Tricky thing with the last shift is: This last shift needs a fully empty or transended separate self, including very subtle layers of feeling/thinking... And that needs.... a lot of time in these nondual and empty states to get rid of any untranscended separate self arising. And these last separate self elements can be very tricky & subtle, needing familiarity with them to spot them, and a very fast speed of spotting and transcending/cutting them off in real time. And: You can't force it here with the usual meditation techniques (that came before this stage) of directing attention. Because who/what is doing the meditation? The separate self.... It has to be automized, so that the meditation does itself. No artificial activity of a separate self. Non-Meditation Yoga in the Mahamudra-System. Or alternatively, but not so efficient: "Bang your head against the wall" for several years with a Koan. That also works, but more brute-force-style and doesn't feel so nice... Or you win the genetic lottery, jump all of that, find yourself to be the Great Unborn... and have no clue how to get there since you jumped the journey. Ramana-style. The author of these lines wasn't lucky enough to win this lottery. But hey, the point of the ride is ride. Bon voyage! ( : "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all." Kalu Rinpoche Selling Water by the River

Hi Lilia, yes, there can be pain, but no psychological suffering stacked on top, and the pain itself much more removed with less focus, flowing through oneself like a distant wave. What I wanted to say in my post (suffering and mainting Realization sobre/without psychedelics) was that without full stable Realization of ones True Nature and being able to keep that stable in everyday life (Postsamadhi), the cycle of suffering of the separate self continues. Without Realization of ones True Nature, one can have wonderful trips of Awakening with psychedelics, or just normal blissful experiences. But it never lasts. The merry-go-round of being content/satisfied and then no longer content/satisfied (suffering in the Buddhist sense of Dukha means not literally suffering, but something mroe like unsatisfactoryness (everything being unsatisfactory in the end, which then also causes suffering) continues. It is (in my observation) a necessary building block of any Lila, because without it the separate self arising would at some point no longer find "projects", and just "fizzles" out at some point. And: When I became able to rest in my True Nature (cutting off and/or just watching the separate-self arisings (thoughts/feelings) "Trekchö-style" emerging also at high frequencies, the visual field became limitless/infinite/nondual/mere appearance/imagined style/empty/groundless), and most of the separate self arisings were seen flowing through the Reality that the Real I is, I got a flow of bliss/love flowing from and through that Source/Reality that was independend from outer circumstances. In the beginning I thought it was too good to be true, like am I fooling myself here. But it never stopped, and increased further, including the so called three special states of bliss, emptiness (groundlessness) and luminosity (shimmering mere appearance), which then also progressed further. At that time, the meditation was off-the-pillow (Postsamadhi-Meditation) since quite some time, so I got that in everyday life and not only while sitting. And from that basis of a fully nondual infinite field of empty groundless mere appearances with no center/separate anything, one can start wondering WHAT kind of empty nonlocal Awareness really watches that infinite empty field of mere appearance, and in What that really appears. And then the Big Bang can suddenly happen. But that comes normally a considerable time after the stabilization of the Nondual Field described above. Tashi Namgyal, quoted in Pointing out the Great Way, Brown: "In short, crossing over [to Enlightenment] happens at the time when every single sensory experience—appearance [visual field] and thought [any separates self or thought arising in general]—are viewed as clarity/emptiness [mere empty groundless imagined appearance] and movement/emptiness [thought/separate self arisings moving in You/Reality] with absolute certainty [meaning it is no a decission of any kind, but a self-evident observation and an understanding of Absolute certainty, an Understanding of Ultimate Reality (infinite consciousness) understanding Itself]." Or in other words: When you get it that anything there can ever be is just a imagined show happening in the True You, and the True You is so totally empty/Nothingness that it is when no appearance appears unware of itself, but with the potential for sentience if something is imagined. Or: Totally empty, Nothingness, so that IT can manifest anything and is not limited in any way, which it would be if IT/You were anything specific at all. This is a point where many teachings become imprecise, or just end there (at a not so empty Nonduality), because the author didn't progress over that Nonduality-Stage with a still lingering pretty empty awareness/witness. Whenever you here "I am this Nonduality", a questionmark is indicated. For that, see also this video (Prior to Nonduality): Concerning what you describe about pain: Yes. If there is Physical pain, it is still there, but no psychological restisting/suffering arises because of it (which is like 80% of the perceived suffering). On top, as you describe, the physical pain flows through the Reality that you are, like the wind. Much more remote, like there is pain moving in me, but I am not that pain. It doesn't "grip" anymore. Bon voyage Water by the River

I realized there are many words for roughly the same "levels of complexity» with respect to how reality is conceptualized and experienced. This is me sharing some of those words with you. If you want an anchor: for level 3, think of humans; for level 2, think of animals; for level 1, think of rocks: 3. Thought, abstractions, meta-cognition, symbols, self-reflection, the conscious ego, internal re-representations, sapience, language, narrative, story, meta-consciousness. 2. Instinct, concrete experiences, cognition, perception, sensation, the unconscious ego, internal representations, sentience, emotion, behavior, wakefulness, dreaming, personal consciousness. 1. "The thing in itself", "Consciousness", phenomenal consciousness, qualia, objective reality, physical reality, subatomic particles, «the brain», egolessness, form, formlessness, emptiness, awareness, deep sleep, cessation, transpersonal consciousness. Some might think "perception" is identical to "qualia" or "Consciousness". To that I say that perception is a limited filtering of reality that arises as a result of evolutionary pressures, and it's intimately tied to your biological makeup. Meanwhile "Consciousness" is the unfiltered and raw reality that exists prior to your limited perception of it. For example, if you're looking at a rock and then close your eyes, even though you no longer see the rock, that doesn't mean the rock disappeared from reality. Other people can still see the same rock. The rock is still "experiential" despite you not perceiving it, and hence why this is placed together with things like "objective/physical reality" and "subatomic particles". Perception is a much more personalized phenomena, while Consciousness is a more transpersonal phenomena. Some might think "why make 1 and 2 separate at all?". Well, to combine them would be to discard a huge chunk of brilliant insights from fields like depth psychology (e.g. Freud, Jung), Western philosophical idealism (e.g. Kant, Schopenhauer) and modern analytic philosophy and cognitive science. And of course, to tackle the thought-terminating cliché of solipsism: no, this is not me "disproving" solipsism. I've simply given you a list of words that I think most intellectual traditions think is a reasonable account of what reality is and what most humans feel is an intuitive account of how they experience reality.

Try an efficient meditation system, like for example "Pointing Out the Great Way" by Daniel Brown. Get your meditation going first on the pillow, Learn to spot any thought/concept arising directly when it emerges from consciousness/emptiness, see it move in that, and dissolve back into that. Then get the meditation "automized" Nonmeditation-Yoga-Style without any effort or artificial activity, the meditation doing itself (advanced stage). That gets the separate-self-arisings "doing" the meditation out of the way (they are just more thought-arising). Then move it into every-day life (Postsamadhi-Meditation). Then, your visual field will start becoming nondual and empty, like a hologram. Bliss without any cause starts to flow, the normal feeling good- feeling bad cycles of the separate self stop. Then, remove all remaining subtle filters/lenses/centers of the separate self arisings, learn to see/spot them fast enough and not "see through them"/"not looking out from them", until only the Nondual Infinite Awareness Space remains, and all perceptions appearing as mere imagined appearances, empty, lucent and hologram-like, moving in "It", perceptions perceiving themselves. And then check "WHO" is aware of that Infinite Nondual Field of mere appearance, with thoughts and world-objects moving and appearing in it like the wind, moving through You.Then, at one point, suddenly even the last feeling of an empty nonlocal witness perceiving a kind of Infinity/Totality will drop, totally becoming one with field. One without a second. Maybe even the One Hand will give you a clap then. The One without a second, initially unaware of itself when no arisings move (Nirvikalpa, Cessation, Deep Sleep,...), but with the potential for sentience. Always eternally right here now. And then, maybe consider the Empty Mirror Job Opening. Selling Water by the River PS: @GLORY "No they can be awake Or maybe even Awake But they are not AWAKE™" May I borrow that somtimes from you? I just love it PS: And whatever precisely the latest definitions of God Realization/awakening/alien awakening/.... are for Leo these days, the writer of these lines probably respectfully disqualifies for that.

Lol. A retarded human is defenitly less sentient. A stone has zero IQ, that is way it has zero sentience. I am with you that at high levels, IQ starts to become less related to snetntience or intelligence, another function takes over, which I call metaphysical intelligence.

@LSD-Rumi u think a human with 10iq is less sentient then a human with 200iq? Actually it matters not how much intelect u have. Whether u're a simple calculator or a complex ai code. It's all the same. U can upgrade a calculator a 1000x times and its sentience level will still remain the same( that of a math formula). A human with zero iq will still be more sentient then a concept maschine.

If you're an idealist, consciousness doesn't arise from anything, because it's beyond physicality, but sentience is a concept we ascribe to lifeforms. It does seem to have something to do with physicality. You wouldn't say a rock is sentient. It doesn't feel pain when you step on it. It doesn't have eyes to see with or ears to hear with.

"The appearance of sentience that AI has is as illusiory as ego personality"

@Leo Gura But.. the OP was talking about sentience/consciousness..

Why is that the end goal? Isn't it the survival of the organism as a whole? And if you're singling out signalling between neurons as the only important process for sentience, what is so special about this process, and why are other processes in the brain irrelevant? But then, would it be able to think? Does it have memories of previous experiences?

Have you ever done so much psychedelics that literally all of reality collapses into the primordial soup it originated from? That thing is already sentient. As reality reemerges from that state, you conclusively realize that sentience comes from this Urstoff and not some neurons in the brain. So there is no reason why AI shouldn't be able to become sentient.